Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Rajiv Malhotra [sMTP:rajiv.malhotra] skrev 13. juni 2001 04:43: > The NY Times article below brings up an interesting issue: Since gypsies are from India and many have reclaimed their Hindu origins, why is it that there are no European scholars of subaltern studies, tribes, dalits, low caste, etc. who want to study them? Here you are dead wrong. There are quite a lot of Gypsy studies and there is a journal for it. In Oslo, two people were busy for years studying the Gypsies (there is a Norwegian tribe), both their language and their sociology. I believe the results were published in Norwegian. Furthermore, the European Council emphasizes the integration of Gypsies into society and actively tries to fight discrimination. What I would like to know is: Why are you dodging the issue? Many people in the West are quite aware of their own shortcomings and discuss them frequently in the press. Why are you so hellbent upon attacking the social evils of the West while simply ignoring India's problems? Doesn't house-cleaning begin at home? Leave Gypsy matters to the Gypsies and the societies where they live, and start dealing with your own underclass. Why don't you discuss the discriminatory attitudes inherent in Hindu society, the violence perpetrated against lowly people by caste Hindus? I don't see large numbers of South Asians butchered in the US. In fact, most of you do fairly well according to statistics. In India, people get killed on a regular basis. Not to mention the humiliation and deprivation they often have to live with. We are talking about 120-180 million people, the size of two good-sized European nations. Not only is their situation unjust, this is simply bad talent management! Educate them and grant them the opportunity to compete freely, and India will be the better for it. Don't you think that Brahmins (who are grossly overrepresented in the running of India) and other high caste groups should give up some of their privileges, accept food and drink from the "impure" or simply drop the whole prescientific notion of purity which permeates Hinduism today? There is scope for radical new thinking. Westerners have dealt with the irrational components of their own religion. Shouldn't you? And isn't this a more pressing job for an Indian? How can you expect to gain the high moral ground debating our weaknesses when you take no interest in India's own problems? You once asked why people in the West took more interest in Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy than in Hinduism and Hindu philosophy. I believe that part of the answer lies here: to the Western mind, Hinduism is morally compromised by the caste system. This stigma does not attach to Buddhism. All the more reason for you to start cleaning house at home. Anyway: I have tried to participate in fair discussions of Western racism etc. for several years, only to be met by sneers and insults whenever people disagreed with me. I now think that we should spend the next four years discussing India's social problems and ideological quirks. It is only fair that these things move about, and that we deal with everybody's problems. So I will not participate in any discussions of dubious Western attitudes any more. Let me hear some self-criticism from our Indian friends, and I'll play. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: Doesn't Don't > you think that Brahmins (who are grossly overrepresented in the running of > India) and other high caste groups should give up some of their privileges, > accept food and drink from the "impure" or simply drop the whole > prescientific notion of purity which permeates Hinduism today? Dear Sir, About Brahmins grossly being overrepresented in the running of India (administration, army, courts), I have not come across any reliabe, detailed study statewise or central govt -wise . It goes as a kind of heresay. About the pre-scientific notion of ritual purity, in the urban areas it has lapsed , by and large. I am not talking of caste politics, which is alive and kicking, but the practical application of ritual purity. We will take your advice , drop the prescientific notions of purity in favour of scientific notions of purity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Dear Dr. Fosse, I don't read every mail in Sri. Kalyanaraman's Indian Civilization or Dr. Rajiv Malhotra's Indic Traditions list. in Indian Civilization list, in this day and age, Thiru. Nanda Chandran, I recall among others, is arguing very eloquently about the Brahmin supremacy and Sri. Lakshmi Srinivas was opposing it. If interested, pl. read the archives and participate there. The archives are not open, and I once asked Sri. Kalyanaramanji there. Dalit positions in higher echeleons of power and positions are not proportional to the percentage in population, i think. Regards, N. Ganesan INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > Rajiv Malhotra [sMTP:rajiv.malhotra@a...] skrev 13. juni 2001 04:43: > > The NY Times article below brings up an interesting issue: Since gypsies > are from India and many have reclaimed their Hindu origins, why is it that > there are no European scholars of subaltern studies, tribes, dalits, low > caste, etc. who want to study them? > > Here you are dead wrong. There are quite a lot of Gypsy studies and there > is a journal for it. In Oslo, two people were busy for years studying the > Gypsies (there is a Norwegian tribe), both their language and their > sociology. I believe the results were published in Norwegian. Furthermore, > the European Council emphasizes the integration of Gypsies into society and > actively tries to fight discrimination. > > What I would like to know is: Why are you dodging the issue? Many people in > the West are quite aware of their own shortcomings and discuss them > frequently in the press. Why are you so hellbent upon attacking the social > evils of the West while simply ignoring India's problems? Doesn't > house-cleaning begin at home? Leave Gypsy matters to the Gypsies and the > societies where they live, and start dealing with your own underclass. Why > don't you discuss the discriminatory attitudes inherent in Hindu society, > the violence perpetrated against lowly people by caste Hindus? I don't see > large numbers of South Asians butchered in the US. In fact, most of you do > fairly well according to statistics. In India, people get killed on a > regular basis. Not to mention the humiliation and deprivation they often > have to live with. We are talking about 120-180 million people, the size of > two good-sized European nations. Not only is their situation unjust, this > is simply bad talent management! Educate them and grant them the > opportunity to compete freely, and India will be the better for it. Don't > you think that Brahmins (who are grossly overrepresented in the running of > India) and other high caste groups should give up some of their privileges, > accept food and drink from the "impure" or simply drop the whole > prescientific notion of purity which permeates Hinduism today? There is > scope for radical new thinking. Westerners have dealt with the irrational > components of their own religion. Shouldn't you? And isn't this a more > pressing job for an Indian? How can you expect to gain the high moral > ground debating our weaknesses when you take no interest in India's own > problems? You once asked why people in the West took more interest in > Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy than in Hinduism and Hindu philosophy. I > believe that part of the answer lies here: to the Western mind, Hinduism is > morally compromised by the caste system. This stigma does not attach to > Buddhism. All the more reason for you to start cleaning house at home. > > Anyway: I have tried to participate in fair discussions of Western racism > etc. for several years, only to be met by sneers and insults whenever > people disagreed with me. I now think that we should spend the next four > years discussing India's social problems and ideological quirks. It is only > fair that these things move about, and that we deal with everybody's > problems. So I will not participate in any discussions of dubious Western > attitudes any more. Let me hear some self-criticism from our Indian > friends, and I'll play. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse@o... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > Many people in > the West are quite aware of their own shortcomings and discuss them > frequently in the press. Why are you so hellbent upon attacking the social > evils of the West while simply ignoring India's problems? Doesn't > house-cleaning begin at home? Leave Gypsy matters to the Gypsies and the > societies where they live, and start dealing with your own underclass. RESPONSE: Applying Fosse's advice to himself, why is he into Indology as opposed to staying at home and cleaning his own house - drugs, teen pregnencies, largest prison population in the world, more spousal killings per population than all the highly publicized 'dowry deaths' etc. Note how there is anger when the 'Other' wants to remove this glass ceiling and become an equal in cross cultural dialog, which includes each side studying the other's problems as seen from the outside. Yet we are asked to believe that there is no Eurocentrism. Even the selection of topics that are allowed to be studied is biased. Nore also how any such voices raised - after ignoring no longer works, and anger is exposed - get a response that 'we already know what there is to know, we already have ONE scholar in some remote place who wrote once about it'. On the other hand the appetite to write on India's social problems is insatiable - look at the number of academic journal articles and university press books, and look at the pattern of funding by western grant makers to the NGOs. Indians have to dress up as 'ethnic', perform as in a circus to prove they are sufficiently exotic, then dish out what makes Westerners feel proud of their own superiority. This is how Macaulayites continue to be manufactured by western scholarship. Rajiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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