SV: SV: [Y-Indology] The Euro Dalits

June 13, 2001

rajiv.malhotra [sMTP:rajiv.malhotra] skrev 13. juni 2001

18:44:

> Applying Fosse's advice to himself, why is he into Indology as

> opposed to staying at home and cleaning his own house - drugs, teen

> pregnencies, largest prison population in the world, more spousal

> killings per population than all the highly publicized 'dowry deaths'

> etc.

You must be talking about America. This hardly applies to Scandinavia. As

for India: since I am an Indologist, it is natural that I take an interest

in the whole shabang: language, culture, sociology, history etc. It is part

of my professional education. But as is evident on this list, I am also

willing to discuss the West's problems and moral shortcomings. But I notice

in your own hedging and withdrawal that you are unwilling to give India the

same kind of treatment. Which, in my opinion, makes you a moral

opportunist. I would be willing to take you seriously if you were willing

to discuss India's moral and social problems. But apparently, you are not.

Which is exactly what I expected.

> Nore also how any such voices raised - after ignoring no longer

> works, and anger is exposed - get a response that 'we already know

> what there is to know, we already have ONE scholar in some remote

> place who wrote once about it'. On the other hand the appetite to

> write on India's social problems is insatiable - look at the number

> of academic journal articles and university press books, and look at

> the pattern of funding by western grant makers to the NGOs. Indians

> have to dress up as 'ethnic', perform as in a circus to prove they

> are sufficiently exotic, then dish out what makes Westerners feel

> proud of their own superiority. This is how Macaulayites continue to

> be manufactured by western scholarship.

Why am I not surprised at this passage? No one claimed Western superiority

here, so this must be your own personal obsession. Could it be that you and

a number of other Indians simply are nursing a complex of inferiority? You

want to amount to something in the world, but your economy doesn't work

properly, electricity breaks down, internal competion between groups -

whether castes or religions - fritter away India's energy and power. And

you are faced with aggressive Western nations where things tend to work,

where economies blossom and where the average Joe is reasonably well-to-do.

There is no intrinsic reason why this shouldn't be India - India like

Russia has enormous resources. So when both countries have a tremendous

poverty problem, the reason lies in society, in culture and politics. You

may complain about Western colonialism and imperialism, but forget that

well-organised, big nations with great national resources don't get bullied

- they bully. I suspect that what India needs is heavy dose of

"Macaulyites". People who can blow away the cobweb of obsolete traditions

and encrusted destructive attitudes and reorganize your society along fair

and rational priniciples. We did it here. So why don't you get at it? Why

don't you attack the real reasons for India's problems: corruption,

casteism, unfairness, exclusion of talent for caste reasons and inclusion

of incompetents for the same reason? You have a great deal more to deal

with than us. God knows we have our problems, but they are nothing compared

to yours.

And incidentally: if you deal with India's problems in a realistic manner,

you will also have greater credibility when you try to promote India's

cultural products which are often worth promoting.

All the best,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse

Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,

0674 Oslo

Norway

Phone: +47 22 32 12 19

Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45

Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19

Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)

Email: lmfosse

June 13, 2001

INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote:

Mr. Fosse,

Could I have a list of your scholarly publications on Classical India

(excluding the matter covered in your published thesis) published in

reputed journals?

Regards

Vishal

June 13, 2001

I don't think any Indian denies that India has problems to deal with.

As for the problems mentioned in the message:

(1)As for economy, let's not forget that India as a country has been

free from colonial yoke, only for 54 years, which is probably not a

large period to produce colossal socio-economic changes, without a

totalitarian government. On the top of that India has been following

closed socialist economic patterns for virtually four decades.

Consequently anything vaguely close to hardcore capitalism was

considered "anti-poor" and of course the government couldn't afford to

lose vote bank for being anti-poor.

But again especially since the latter 80's and early 90's things

have indeed changed a lot. India is moving more towards free market

economy, which is, I think, in general a healthy trend. Western and

southern India in particular, alongwith the other cities elsewhere

have witnessed significant changes.

(2)I agree that caste and religious conflicts do tend to consume a lot

of national resources. A lot of these are legacy problems. But again,

we must not forget that India has the largest equal opportunity

program as far as education and government jobs are concerned. School

level education, I believe, is free for the underprivileged, in most

parts of the country.

(3)I don't think it would be right to castigate the Hindu caste system

for the problems of India. The rigid caste system is basically a

mutation of the flexible varna system, which I believe was based more

on professional classification. (I believe, a lot of scholars here

know more about this). It is rather the attitudes associated with

caste, which are to be blamed. Caste hardly plays any vital role in

the day to day lives in most of Indian cities today. I myself have

never seen any one being treated as an untouchable, virtually in my

whole life. I am surprised when scholars find that ancient practice

responsible for all of India's woes. Again, I am not saying that caste

consciousness is not present, but the social attitudes have changed

and are are still changing. Casteism in general, as far as I think,

tends to be more concentrated in certain regions - in the North

central states like Bihar, but there again, I believe it is more due

to "economic inequality" than anything else. One can also see a lot of

examples in everyday life in which people from lowest caste groups are

doing good, because of decent education and jobs.

(4)As far as Maculay is concerned, I believe it is the same person who

had said this - "the historical information collected from all the

books written in Sanskrit language is less valuable than what may be

found in most paltry abridgments, used in preparatory schools in

England.". As far as I know this individual did not even know

Sanskrit. This statement clearly shows an inability to appreciate one

of the most ancient and rich literary traditions and language, in

other words - closed mindedness and a clear bias. Now, how would

followers of such a philosophy ever be expected to "reform" India?

Reformation does not mean attaching a big label - "Outdated and Bad"

to an entire culture. It should be more responsible, focussed on the

real problems that have arisen out of undesirable mutations(e.g.:

dowry system, overpopulation etc.), at the same time appreciating the

positive things (e.g.: principles of non-violence, karma, dharma,

etc.). The aim is to reform the culture and not to attempt to

undermine the whole thing using bulldozers.

As far as indology is concerned, I think the the reason for this

recent flare up lies in India's experience with colonialism. The

colonial period has seen "researchers" who "researched Hinduism", with

the ultimate objective of conversions. That is the reason why the

general perception has come to be that of a civilizational attack in

the garb of indology. I think and hope those times are gone now. Hence

this attitude should change.

On flip side I see nothing wrong in being

open to new ideas. For example being AIT skeptic does not make a

person a Hindu fanatic. Maybe what was proposed a hundred years ago

was incorrect; assumptions were made based on preconceived notions or

mental barriers; or possibly biases or political objectives, and there

is nothing wrong in trying to correct it, of course using sound

logical reasoning.

Piyush

> Why am I not surprised at this passage? No one claimed Western

superiority

> here, so this must be your own personal obsession. Could it be that

you and

> a number of other Indians simply are nursing a complex of

inferiority? You

> want to amount to something in the world, but your economy doesn't

work

> properly, electricity breaks down, internal competion between groups

-

> whether castes or religions - fritter away India's energy and power.

And

> you are faced with aggressive Western nations where things tend to

work,

> where economies blossom and where the average Joe is reasonably

well-to-do.

> There is no intrinsic reason why this shouldn't be India - India

like

> Russia has enormous resources. So when both countries have a

tremendous

> poverty problem, the reason lies in society, in culture and

politics. You

> may complain about Western colonialism and imperialism, but forget

that

> well-organised, big nations with great national resources don't get

bullied

> - they bully. I suspect that what India needs is heavy dose of

> "Macaulyites". People who can blow away the cobweb of obsolete

traditions

> and encrusted destructive attitudes and reorganize your society

along fair

> and rational priniciples. We did it here. So why don't you get at

it? Why

> don't you attack the real reasons for India's problems: corruption,

> casteism, unfairness, exclusion of talent for caste reasons and

inclusion

> of incompetents for the same reason? You have a great deal more to

deal

> with than us. God knows we have our problems, but they are nothing

compared

> to yours.

>

> And incidentally: if you deal with India's problems in a realistic

manner,

> you will also have greater credibility when you try to promote

India's

> cultural products which are often worth promoting.

>

> All the best,

>

> Lars Martin Fosse

>

> Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse

> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,

> 0674 Oslo

> Norway

> Phone: +47 22 32 12 19

> Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45

> Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19

> Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)

> Email: lmfosse@o...

June 13, 2001