Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 piyush_123 [sMTP:piyush_123] skrev 14. juni 2001 00:30: > I don't think any Indian denies that India has problems to deal with. > As for the problems mentioned in the message: > (1)As for economy, let's not forget that India as a country has been > free from colonial yoke, only for 54 years, which is probably not a > large period to produce colossal socio-economic changes, without a > totalitarian government. I don't think that the colonial period is such a good excuse any more, but I am quite willing to listen if you can support this argument with solid data. On the top of that India has been following > closed socialist economic patterns for virtually four decades. > Consequently anything vaguely close to hardcore capitalism was > considered "anti-poor" and of course the government couldn't afford to > lose vote bank for being anti-poor. I think this is a better argument. India's economic policies were not felicitous and certainly account for some of the problems that we see today (by the way: it should be said that India, in spite of her problems, is doing infinitely better than Pakistan, and in some sectors India is doing sensationally well. I am of course speaking about IT!) > (2)I agree that caste and religious conflicts do tend to consume a lot > of national resources. A lot of these are legacy problems. But again, > we must not forget that India has the largest equal opportunity > program as far as education and government jobs are concerned. School > level education, I believe, is free for the underprivileged, in most > parts of the country. Point well taken. There is undoubtedly a will in some quarters to mend the problems, although not all equal opportunity programs seem to have the desired effect (some of them may be too radical for comfort, others may not go far enough. It is difficult to find a balance). Yet the basic problem remains: India has more than a billion citizens squeezed in on an area about the size of the US, and more than half of them are analfabeths. That is a tremendous problem. > (3)I don't think it would be right to castigate the Hindu caste system > for the problems of India. The rigid caste system is basically a > mutation of the flexible varna system, which I believe was based more > on professional classification. (I believe, a lot of scholars here > know more about this). It is rather the attitudes associated with > caste, which are to be blamed. It is true that the early system (varna) was more a system of "estates" than of caste. We know from the brahmana literature and the epics that there was a certain mobility between varnas in the early phase. But I disagree with you when you say that it is not caste that is the problem. The attitudes associated with caste are precisely a product of the caste system. Compare European class struggles, where the old, rigid class system produced an enormous amount of bitterness and violence. Classes have not gone away, but they have become permeable. If you are a gifted individual, it is possible to rise within the system, doors are not shut because of your background. This takes much of the "revolutionary" potential out of class. And it creates healthier societies. When I browse Internet web pages related to India, I see a tremendous amount of bitterness in some quarters. This bitterness goes through India's body politic and creates unstability (it is not simply a humanitarian question: India's future depends upon its solution). This question has to be addressed in critical manner. Caste hardly plays any vital role in > the day to day lives in most of Indian cities today. I myself have > never seen any one being treated as an untouchable, virtually in my > whole life. Then I think I can direct you towards web sites where you will get vivid descriptions. But I have no problems believing that you are speaking the truth. Oslo is a city developing a culture of street violence to would make Chicago in the 30ies proud. But I have never seen any of it myself. I am surprised when scholars find that ancient practice > responsible for all of India's woes. Again, I am not saying that caste > consciousness is not present, but the social attitudes have changed > and are are still changing. Casteism in general, as far as I think, > tends to be more concentrated in certain regions - in the North > central states like Bihar, but there again, I believe it is more due > to "economic inequality" than anything else. One can also see a lot of > examples in everyday life in which people from lowest caste groups are > doing good, because of decent education and jobs. Again, I think that you are at least partially right. But I believe that there are still a lot of problems to be solved, and it is imperative that they get solved before certain problems get out of hand. I believe the future of India is in limbo: things can fall either way. The quotes that Martin Delhey gave us earlier today are not reassuring. They are representative of a political mentality that could very easily lead to a national catastrophe. What remains to be seen is to what extent this is simply irresponsible rhetoric and to what extent India will try to implement these policies. > (4)As far as Maculay is concerned, I believe it is the same person who > had said this - "the historical information collected from all the > books written in Sanskrit language is less valuable than what may be > found in most paltry abridgments, used in preparatory schools in > England.". I was not strictly speaking thinking of Macauly, but of the persons that are accused of imitating him. They represent a way of thinking that many Indians on the political right detest. I am not certain that this is a sound attitude. Most of the people that are called Macaulyites seem eminently sensible to me, with the possible exception of orthodox Marxists (we happen to know that Marxism doesn't work either). > Reformation does not mean attaching a big label - "Outdated and Bad" > to an entire culture. All successful societies in the West have done exactly this with large sectors of their old cultures. If you compare the beginning of the last century with the end of it, you will find two entirely different worlds. Culture, like anything else, can be thrown away, and there are times when it is necessary to do so. Both cultures and mental worlds get obsolete. The question is what you replace them with. It should preferably be something better. > As far as indology is concerned, I think the the reason for this > recent flare up lies in India's experience with colonialism. The > colonial period has seen "researchers" who "researched Hinduism", with > the ultimate objective of conversions. I believe it is a long time since we were into conversions. Most modern Indologist tend to be rather agnostic. But you forget something important: in a world where there is freedom of religion, there must necessarily be conversions. If you forbid conversions, you reject the principle of freedom of religion and thereby violate international treaties that India has signed. Instead of mauling Christians and Muslims, why not try to make Hinduism more attractive by simply dropping the obsolete ideas about purity and defilement and try to remove the barriers between castes in the countryside so that e.g. even chamars could drink from the same well as brahmins? I don't claim that this is easy, or that it would happen over night. But it should be the eminent task for the high castes, and it would have a good effect upon national cohesion. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: For sure, India's society today badly needs to be reformed - this is long past due. But it is not best done by outsiders because: (1) they have superficial understanding, as evidenced by disbelief in the existence of Eurocentrism and the negative impact of colonialism, (2) they have a long history of extremely selfish and destruction motives driving their very dangerous behavior, including offers to help, and (3) they represent ideologies, political and economic interests as is evidenced by the funding patterns and the fixations in their scholarship. In other words, they do not have credibility, and the behavior of many on this list validates this hypothesis. But if you are genuinely interested to help the needy, and are open to drastic suggestions, here is one idea you should promote: Just as movement of goods and money is the new ideology of globalization, so also should there be totally free movement of labor. This means NO immigration controls at all. Let all humans compete freely for all jobs everywhere. Any economist will tell you that this would be the most efficient use of resources. This might be too radical an idea but its time has come. It could be implemented in a phased manner over say 25 or 50 years, to prevent overnight havoc. Once a geography does not belong to anyone, there will not be any national identities. This will be a true human society free from artificial constraints. Since it is being tried by Europeans already, except for racial prejudice, what prevents it from being open to any African or Asian as well? So explore solutions that also require sacrifices to your own accumulated wealth - lets not for the moment ask how that happened. Stop this looking down the glass ceiling to 'inferior' colored societies below, incentivising those who you award 'honorary white' status because they obey you and fall in line to suck up to you. This talk about 'helping' inferior people who dont have electricity is a euphemisn for the White Man's Burden of colonial times. Not much has changed for some persons. Hopefully, they are a small minority. Rajiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 INDOLOGY, rajiv.malhotra@a... wrote: >In other words, they do not have credibility, and the > behavior of many on this list validates this hypothesis. Thank goodness, Euro Dalits have no voting rights in Bha_rata. Yet, by hob-nobbing with psecs and communists, they try to interfere in the internal affairs of Bha_rata and produce books (e.g. on Ra_makr.s.n.a Paramaham.sa without understanding a smattering of Bengali idiom or Bha_rati_ya culture). Opening up the borders is a good idea, Rajiv, let the Arya-s (and Dravida-s and Munda-s) from Bha_rata reclaim their lands in Europe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Rajiv Malhotra seems to take Lars Martin seriously. All of Lars Martin Fosse's long writeup is merely a diversion to take attention away scrutinising the ideology of the europeanist academics. Remember, this whole exchange started when George Thompson attacked all Hindus who do not believe in the AIT. The fact is that these europeanist academics have never been questioned so far and they had total control. Now a person like Witzel has been exposed as manufacturing textual data to prove AIT/AMT, passing the buck to someone when the falsity is pointed out. Also, notice that none of these self styled scholars said anything when Witzel indulged in name calling ( again!) This shows again that these people who peddle themselves as scholars neither have ethics nor intellectual integrity. How can these fellows claim to be objective ? Previously, the europeanist academics could easily ignore and build up their own theories with no scrutiny. That is no longer true. It has to be remembered that fron the mighty Aryan invasions these europeanist academics have been reduced to claiming "limited immigration". A decade ago, these europeanist academics would not even acknowledge other viewpoints, now they are desperately trying to protect their turf and theories. We will see in another 10-15 years as to whose theories will be correct and whose will be wrong. This whole exchange will be useful to all Indians because it showed the true colors of the people who have influenced Indian history for so long. Regards, Subrahmanya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 First of all thank you for the privelege to participate on this list. I have been following this discussion for a while and let me just give my background really quickly. I'm not a indologist or even a degree holder, i'm a fourth year student at University of California, Irvine studying both political science and criminology, i graduate next year due to adding my philosophy minor. I lived in India for a year under the education abroad program and there i studied sanskrit and beginning greek under Professor Prem Singh from Delhi University dept. of linguistics, he also studied under Professor Engels in Harvard University. I also studied indian philosophy and conducted research on Hindutva, i am submitting that paper to my university journal for publication. This list has turned into a mud slinging campaign, as sad as it is to say even when i engage in debates and discussions with my peers it never degrades to this. Scholars (including those who don't hold degrees in linguistics or indology) and professors all have engaged in this activity. Please keep this scholarly and academic, so that people like me and others interested can learn from your expertise and exchanges. > I don't think that the colonial period is such a good excuse any more, but > I am quite willing to listen if you can support this argument with solid > data. Sir, a piece of evidence i would offer is that colonial period does have an effect on modern India because for one the structure of the Indian Politic system is directly adapted from the British System. It has not been improved upon nor has it been tailored to fit Indian culture and society. The system of government of any given nation should be tailored and should fit the society it serves. The system of government developed by the West fits the West because its history and society have been building up to such a system. The colonial rule in India codified the different laws in India into Hindu and Muslim Law. They attempted to do to India what was being done in the British common Law system. Please refer to Benard S. Cohn "Colonalism and its forms of knowledge"(i'm not exactly sure on the title but if you search Professor Benard S. Cohn of University of Chicago you will find his work on this issue, he explains how deep the colonial effect on india was and is) > > (2)I agree that caste and religious conflicts do tend to consume a lot > > of national resources. A lot of these are legacy problems. But again, > > we must not forget that India has the largest equal opportunity > > program as far as education and government jobs are concerned. School > > level education, I believe, is free for the underprivileged, in most > > parts of the country. > > Point well taken. There is undoubtedly a will in some quarters to mend the > problems, although not all equal opportunity programs seem to have the > desired effect (some of them may be too radical for comfort, others may not > go far enough. It is difficult to find a balance). Yet the basic problem > remains: India has more than a billion citizens squeezed in on an area > about the size of the US, and more than half of them are analfabeths. That > is a tremendous problem. Prof. Fosse is right on this one. This is a problem best dealt with through education and economic incentives to control population growth. AIDS is a very big potential problem in India and studies show if unchecked that it will blow up within 20 years but the government has begun a campaign to educate on this issue, I saw signs up everywhere in Delhi for this. > > (3)I don't think it would be right to castigate the Hindu caste system > > for the problems of India. The rigid caste system is basically a > > mutation of the flexible varna system, which I believe was based more > > on professional classification. (I believe, a lot of scholars here > > know more about this). It is rather the attitudes associated with > > caste, which are to be blamed. > > It is true that the early system (varna) was more a system of "estates" > than of caste. We know from the brahmana literature and the epics that > there was a certain mobility between varnas in the early phase. But I > disagree with you when you say that it is not caste that is the problem. > The attitudes associated with caste are precisely a product of the caste > system. Compare European class struggles, where the old, rigid class system > produced an enormous amount of bitterness and violence. Classes have not > gone away, but they have become permeable. If you are a gifted individual, > it is possible to rise within the system, doors are not shut because of > your background. This takes much of the "revolutionary" potential out of > class. And it creates healthier societies. > > When I browse Internet web pages related to India, I see a tremendous > amount of bitterness in some quarters. This bitterness goes through India's > body politic and creates unstability (it is not simply a humanitarian > question: India's future depends upon its solution). This question has to > be addressed in critical manner. Hinduism has had a history of internal revolutions and reformations of the caste system. The most famous is probably the Bhakthi movement that started in South India and spread like wildfire. Currently the issue of caste is only bought up to play the vote bank politics game. > Caste hardly plays any vital role in > > the day to day lives in most of Indian cities today. I myself have > > never seen any one being treated as an untouchable, virtually in my > > whole life. > > Then I think I can direct you towards web sites where you will get vivid > descriptions. But I have no problems believing that you are speaking the > truth. Oslo is a city developing a culture of street violence to would make > Chicago in the 30ies proud. But I have never seen any of it myself. Actually when i was in India, caste was never a issue at all until we went to a Dwarka Temple(by we, i mean myself and a bunch of students) and the priest asked what caste we were. Other than that most large cities as such to me did not seem to be dominated by or influenced by castism. This is not to say that there isn't caste problems, there certainly are but most probably in villages and small towns. > I am surprised when scholars find that ancient practice > > responsible for all of India's woes. Again, I am not saying that caste > > consciousness is not present, but the social attitudes have changed > > and are are still changing. Casteism in general, as far as I think, > > tends to be more concentrated in certain regions - in the North > > central states like Bihar, but there again, I believe it is more due > > to "economic inequality" than anything else. One can also see a lot of > > examples in everyday life in which people from lowest caste groups are > > doing good, because of decent education and jobs. > > Again, I think that you are at least partially right. But I believe that > there are still a lot of problems to be solved, and it is imperative that > they get solved before certain problems get out of hand. I believe the > future of India is in limbo: things can fall either way. The quotes that > Martin Delhey gave us earlier today are not reassuring. They are > representative of a political mentality that could very easily lead to a > national catastrophe. What remains to be seen is to what extent this is > simply irresponsible rhetoric and to what extent India will try to > implement these policies. I agree with Prof. Fosse, India i believe right now is on the threshold of either greatness or stagnation. The past fifty years i believe were a test to see if democracy will be able to survive in the Indian society and it has passed that test. Now the next test is to see whether India can break the chains that hold it down and emerge as a competing power with China in Asia. > > Reformation does not mean attaching a big label - "Outdated and Bad" > > to an entire culture. > > All successful societies in the West have done exactly this with large > sectors of their old cultures. If you compare the beginning of the last > century with the end of it, you will find two entirely different worlds. > Culture, like anything else, can be thrown away, and there are times when > it is necessary to do so. Both cultures and mental worlds get obsolete. The > question is what you replace them with. It should preferably be something > better. Not necessarily true. In America, as great a country as it is still possesses aspects of its old culture but in new or watered down form. Although slavery is no longer a issue here in America, rascism is. There are a number of clear examples of this: Rodney King beating, Diallo shooting, racial profiling and the list goes on. Minorities in this country especially African Americans and Latinos are stereotyped and judged on that stereotype. Many times police abuse and mistreat minorities (majority of these officers being white) as a method to assert their authority, if you wish to have more literature and articles on this i can send them to you. > > As far as indology is concerned, I think the the reason for this > > recent flare up lies in India's experience with colonialism. The > > colonial period has seen "researchers" who "researched Hinduism", with > > the ultimate objective of conversions. > > I believe it is a long time since we were into conversions. Most modern > Indologist tend to be rather agnostic. But you forget something important: > in a world where there is freedom of religion, there must necessarily be > conversions. If you forbid conversions, you reject the principle of freedom > of religion and thereby violate international treaties that India has > signed. Instead of mauling Christians and Muslims, why not try to make > Hinduism more attractive by simply dropping the obsolete ideas about purity > and defilement and try to remove the barriers between castes in the > countryside so that e.g. even chamars could drink from the same well as > brahmins? I don't claim that this is easy, or that it would happen over > night. But it should be the eminent task for the high castes, and it would > have a good effect upon national cohesion. Prof. Fosse, you miss the point about hinduism then. To us, we have no need to go around converting because most of us feel that any path you follow is a good path as long as you follow it well. No one is arguing with you that freedom of religion is wrong rather what I am saying is that when another religion attempts to convert you it automatically shows that they have no respect for your beliefs and view their beliefs as superior. This is what is opposed not the conversion itself but what it stands for. If a hindu came of his/her own will and desired conversion that is ok but going out and activly converting is an slap in the face to hindus. Most hindus as such do not care about purity or defilement except when going to temple or such. Thanks Mukunda Raghavan mukunda_108 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 The sheer stupid arrogance of your position vis-a-vis colonialism is shocking. And thats why I am reproducing the following statistics once again. At the time of independence in 1947, India had a life expectency of 27 years, a literacy rate of 8%, and a per capita income of less than 50 dollars. Between 1871 and 1921, ie. the peak years of Brit empire, the life expectancy of an average indian decreased by 20%. More than 100 million people died in famines in various parts of India during the century before independence and at the peak of one such famine, in 1870's, there was record export of foodgrains from India to Britain. Read 'Late Victorian Holocausts' by Mike Davis. The life expectancy in India now is 65 years, literacy rate 65% and per capita income 500 dollars (2500 dollars ppp corrected). In every decade of independent India, the growth rate has been faster than the previous decade. If there was some problem behind India's destitution, it is obvious it was not Indian society. Rather it was the European poison that was sapping our vitality. And you think you Europeans are going well, dont you? Wait a few more decades when the last vestiges of your loot vanish. I just hope I am alive to see that day. But in any case at that time you will be in an old peoples home surviving on the labour of young Asian workers. INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > piyush_123 [sMTP:piyush_123] skrev 14. juni 2001 00:30: > > I don't think any Indian denies that India has problems to deal with. > > As for the problems mentioned in the message: > > (1)As for economy, let's not forget that India as a country has been > > free from colonial yoke, only for 54 years, which is probably not a > > large period to produce colossal socio-economic changes, without a > > totalitarian government. > > I don't think that the colonial period is such a good excuse any more, but > I am quite willing to listen if you can support this argument with solid > data. > > On the top of that India has been following > > closed socialist economic patterns for virtually four decades. > > Consequently anything vaguely close to hardcore capitalism was > > considered "anti-poor" and of course the government couldn't afford to > > lose vote bank for being anti-poor. > > I think this is a better argument. India's economic policies were not > felicitous and certainly account for some of the problems that we see today > (by the way: it should be said that India, in spite of her problems, is > doing infinitely better than Pakistan, and in some sectors India is doing > sensationally well. I am of course speaking about IT!) > > > (2)I agree that caste and religious conflicts do tend to consume a lot > > of national resources. A lot of these are legacy problems. But again, > > we must not forget that India has the largest equal opportunity > > program as far as education and government jobs are concerned. School > > level education, I believe, is free for the underprivileged, in most > > parts of the country. > > Point well taken. There is undoubtedly a will in some quarters to mend the > problems, although not all equal opportunity programs seem to have the > desired effect (some of them may be too radical for comfort, others may not > go far enough. It is difficult to find a balance). Yet the basic problem > remains: India has more than a billion citizens squeezed in on an area > about the size of the US, and more than half of them are analfabeths. That > is a tremendous problem. > > > (3)I don't think it would be right to castigate the Hindu caste system > > for the problems of India. The rigid caste system is basically a > > mutation of the flexible varna system, which I believe was based more > > on professional classification. (I believe, a lot of scholars here > > know more about this). It is rather the attitudes associated with > > caste, which are to be blamed. > > It is true that the early system (varna) was more a system of "estates" > than of caste. We know from the brahmana literature and the epics that > there was a certain mobility between varnas in the early phase. But I > disagree with you when you say that it is not caste that is the problem. > The attitudes associated with caste are precisely a product of the caste > system. Compare European class struggles, where the old, rigid class system > produced an enormous amount of bitterness and violence. Classes have not > gone away, but they have become permeable. If you are a gifted individual, > it is possible to rise within the system, doors are not shut because of > your background. This takes much of the "revolutionary" potential out of > class. And it creates healthier societies. > > When I browse Internet web pages related to India, I see a tremendous > amount of bitterness in some quarters. This bitterness goes through India's > body politic and creates unstability (it is not simply a humanitarian > question: India's future depends upon its solution). This question has to > be addressed in critical manner. > > Caste hardly plays any vital role in > > the day to day lives in most of Indian cities today. I myself have > > never seen any one being treated as an untouchable, virtually in my > > whole life. > > Then I think I can direct you towards web sites where you will get vivid > descriptions. But I have no problems believing that you are speaking the > truth. Oslo is a city developing a culture of street violence to would make > Chicago in the 30ies proud. But I have never seen any of it myself. > > I am surprised when scholars find that ancient practice > > responsible for all of India's woes. Again, I am not saying that caste > > consciousness is not present, but the social attitudes have changed > > and are are still changing. Casteism in general, as far as I think, > > tends to be more concentrated in certain regions - in the North > > central states like Bihar, but there again, I believe it is more due > > to "economic inequality" than anything else. One can also see a lot of > > examples in everyday life in which people from lowest caste groups are > > doing good, because of decent education and jobs. > > Again, I think that you are at least partially right. But I believe that > there are still a lot of problems to be solved, and it is imperative that > they get solved before certain problems get out of hand. I believe the > future of India is in limbo: things can fall either way. The quotes that > Martin Delhey gave us earlier today are not reassuring. They are > representative of a political mentality that could very easily lead to a > national catastrophe. What remains to be seen is to what extent this is > simply irresponsible rhetoric and to what extent India will try to > implement these policies. > > > (4)As far as Maculay is concerned, I believe it is the same person who > > had said this - "the historical information collected from all the > > books written in Sanskrit language is less valuable than what may be > > found in most paltry abridgments, used in preparatory schools in > > England.". > > I was not strictly speaking thinking of Macauly, but of the persons that > are accused of imitating him. They represent a way of thinking that many > Indians on the political right detest. I am not certain that this is a > sound attitude. Most of the people that are called Macaulyites seem > eminently sensible to me, with the possible exception of orthodox Marxists > (we happen to know that Marxism doesn't work either). > > > > Reformation does not mean attaching a big label - "Outdated and Bad" > > to an entire culture. > > All successful societies in the West have done exactly this with large > sectors of their old cultures. If you compare the beginning of the last > century with the end of it, you will find two entirely different worlds. > Culture, like anything else, can be thrown away, and there are times when > it is necessary to do so. Both cultures and mental worlds get obsolete. The > question is what you replace them with. It should preferably be something > better. > > > As far as indology is concerned, I think the the reason for this > > recent flare up lies in India's experience with colonialism. The > > colonial period has seen "researchers" who "researched Hinduism", with > > the ultimate objective of conversions. > > I believe it is a long time since we were into conversions. Most modern > Indologist tend to be rather agnostic. But you forget something important: > in a world where there is freedom of religion, there must necessarily be > conversions. If you forbid conversions, you reject the principle of freedom > of religion and thereby violate international treaties that India has > signed. Instead of mauling Christians and Muslims, why not try to make > Hinduism more attractive by simply dropping the obsolete ideas about purity > and defilement and try to remove the barriers between castes in the > countryside so that e.g. even chamars could drink from the same well as > brahmins? I don't claim that this is easy, or that it would happen over > night. But it should be the eminent task for the high castes, and it would > have a good effect upon national cohesion. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse@o... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Mr Tiwary, looking at your e-mail address, may I assume you are writing from the Europe you are cursing? I apologize for the huge dosage of European poison we seem to have administered you without noticing so far. Now that we know how poisoned you are, could you wash out your mouth or kindly get off this list until you are detoxicated? Thank you. satish.tiwary wrote: > The sheer stupid arrogance of your position vis-a-vis colonialism is > shocking. And thats why I am reproducing the following statistics once > again. > > At the time of independence in 1947, India had a life expectency of 27 > years, a literacy rate of 8%, and a per capita income of less than 50 > dollars. Between 1871 and 1921, ie. the peak years of Brit empire, the > life expectancy of an average indian decreased by 20%. More than 100 > million people died in famines in various parts of India during the > century before independence and at the peak of one such famine, in > 1870's, there was record export of foodgrains from India to Britain. > Read 'Late Victorian Holocausts' by Mike Davis. > > The life expectancy in India now is 65 years, literacy rate 65% and > per capita income 500 dollars (2500 dollars ppp corrected). In every > decade of independent India, the growth rate has been faster than the > previous decade. If there was some problem behind India's > destitution, it is obvious it was not Indian society. Rather it was > the European poison that was sapping our vitality. > > And you think you Europeans are going well, dont you? Wait a few more > decades when the last vestiges of your loot vanish. I just hope I am > alive to see that day. But in any case at that time you will be in an > old peoples home surviving on the labour of young Asian workers. > > INDOLOGY, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > > piyush_123 [sMTP:piyush_123] skrev 14. juni 2001 00:30: > > > I don't think any Indian denies that India has problems to deal > with. > > > As for the problems mentioned in the message: > > > (1)As for economy, let's not forget that India as a country has > been > > > free from colonial yoke, only for 54 years, which is probably not > a > > > large period to produce colossal socio-economic changes, without a > > > totalitarian government. > > > > I don't think that the colonial period is such a good excuse any > more, but > > I am quite willing to listen if you can support this argument with > solid > > data. > > > > On the top of that India has been following > > > closed socialist economic patterns for virtually four decades. > > > Consequently anything vaguely close to hardcore capitalism was > > > considered "anti-poor" and of course the government couldn't > afford to > > > lose vote bank for being anti-poor. > > > > I think this is a better argument. India's economic policies were > not > > felicitous and certainly account for some of the problems that we > see today > > (by the way: it should be said that India, in spite of her problems, > is > > doing infinitely better than Pakistan, and in some sectors India is > doing > > sensationally well. I am of course speaking about IT!) > > > > > (2)I agree that caste and religious conflicts do tend to consume a > lot > > > of national resources. A lot of these are legacy problems. But > again, > > > we must not forget that India has the largest equal opportunity > > > program as far as education and government jobs are concerned. > School > > > level education, I believe, is free for the underprivileged, in > most > > > parts of the country. > > > > Point well taken. There is undoubtedly a will in some quarters to > mend the > > problems, although not all equal opportunity programs seem to have > the > > desired effect (some of them may be too radical for comfort, others > may not > > go far enough. It is difficult to find a balance). Yet the basic > problem > > remains: India has more than a billion citizens squeezed in on an > area > > about the size of the US, and more than half of them are > analfabeths. That > > is a tremendous problem. > > > > > (3)I don't think it would be right to castigate the Hindu caste > system > > > for the problems of India. The rigid caste system is basically a > > > mutation of the flexible varna system, which I believe was based > more > > > on professional classification. (I believe, a lot of scholars here > > > know more about this). It is rather the attitudes associated with > > > caste, which are to be blamed. > > > > It is true that the early system (varna) was more a system of > "estates" > > than of caste. We know from the brahmana literature and the epics > that > > there was a certain mobility between varnas in the early phase. But > I > > disagree with you when you say that it is not caste that is the > problem. > > The attitudes associated with caste are precisely a product of the > caste > > system. Compare European class struggles, where the old, rigid class > system > > produced an enormous amount of bitterness and violence. Classes have > not > > gone away, but they have become permeable. If you are a gifted > individual, > > it is possible to rise within the system, doors are not shut because > of > > your background. This takes much of the "revolutionary" potential > out of > > class. And it creates healthier societies. > > > > When I browse Internet web pages related to India, I see a > tremendous > > amount of bitterness in some quarters. This bitterness goes through > India's > > body politic and creates unstability (it is not simply a > humanitarian > > question: India's future depends upon its solution). This question > has to > > be addressed in critical manner. > > > > Caste hardly plays any vital role in > > > the day to day lives in most of Indian cities today. I myself have > > > never seen any one being treated as an untouchable, virtually in > my > > > whole life. > > > > Then I think I can direct you towards web sites where you will get > vivid > > descriptions. But I have no problems believing that you are speaking > the > > truth. Oslo is a city developing a culture of street violence to > would make > > Chicago in the 30ies proud. But I have never seen any of it myself. > > > > I am surprised when scholars find that ancient practice > > > responsible for all of India's woes. Again, I am not saying that > caste > > > consciousness is not present, but the social attitudes have > changed > > > and are are still changing. Casteism in general, as far as I > think, > > > tends to be more concentrated in certain regions - in the North > > > central states like Bihar, but there again, I believe it is more > due > > > to "economic inequality" than anything else. One can also see a > lot of > > > examples in everyday life in which people from lowest caste groups > are > > > doing good, because of decent education and jobs. > > > > Again, I think that you are at least partially right. But I believe > that > > there are still a lot of problems to be solved, and it is imperative > that > > they get solved before certain problems get out of hand. I believe > the > > future of India is in limbo: things can fall either way. The quotes > that > > Martin Delhey gave us earlier today are not reassuring. They are > > representative of a political mentality that could very easily lead > to a > > national catastrophe. What remains to be seen is to what extent this > is > > simply irresponsible rhetoric and to what extent India will try to > > implement these policies. > > > > > (4)As far as Maculay is concerned, I believe it is the same person > who > > > had said this - "the historical information collected from all the > > > books written in Sanskrit language is less valuable than what may > be > > > found in most paltry abridgments, used in preparatory schools in > > > England.". > > > > I was not strictly speaking thinking of Macauly, but of the persons > that > > are accused of imitating him. They represent a way of thinking that > many > > Indians on the political right detest. I am not certain that this is > a > > sound attitude. Most of the people that are called Macaulyites seem > > eminently sensible to me, with the possible exception of orthodox > Marxists > > (we happen to know that Marxism doesn't work either). > > > > > > > Reformation does not mean attaching a big label - "Outdated and > Bad" > > > to an entire culture. > > > > All successful societies in the West have done exactly this with > large > > sectors of their old cultures. If you compare the beginning of the > last > > century with the end of it, you will find two entirely different > worlds. > > Culture, like anything else, can be thrown away, and there are times > when > > it is necessary to do so. Both cultures and mental worlds get > obsolete. The > > question is what you replace them with. It should preferably be > something > > better. > > > > > As far as indology is concerned, I think the the reason for this > > > recent flare up lies in India's experience with colonialism. The > > > colonial period has seen "researchers" who "researched Hinduism", > with > > > the ultimate objective of conversions. > > > > I believe it is a long time since we were into conversions. Most > modern > > Indologist tend to be rather agnostic. But you forget something > important: > > in a world where there is freedom of religion, there must > necessarily be > > conversions. If you forbid conversions, you reject the principle of > freedom > > of religion and thereby violate international treaties that India > has > > signed. Instead of mauling Christians and Muslims, why not try to > make > > Hinduism more attractive by simply dropping the obsolete ideas about > purity > > and defilement and try to remove the barriers between castes in the > > countryside so that e.g. even chamars could drink from the same well > as > > brahmins? I don't claim that this is easy, or that it would happen > over > > night. But it should be the eminent task for the high castes, and it > would > > have a good effect upon national cohesion. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lars Martin > > > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo > > Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > > Email: lmfosse@o... > > > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 People, Please get a grip on yourself. Whatever our gripes about each other, India, Europe, the West are partners and competitors, but not enemies. For the last forty years at least, Indologists have not been Nazis. At least in Western Europe, US and Canada, Nazis have pretty much been purged, pushed to the fringe, sidelined. Nor are the Hindutvavaadis fascists or Nazis. You may be alarmed by them, but that is no excuse for misidentification. Lastly, when the "liberal" is silent on an issue or negates it, he/she cedes the issue to the "extremist". This is how Sita Ram Goels gain currency. E.g., the "liberal" has mostly been silent about the history of Muslim-Hindu relations, or denies there was a problem. But it is hard to believe that what is happening today did not happen before (scroll down http://www.saag.org/papers3/paper254.html to find quotes from The Friday Times, the most respectable English language newspaper in Pakistan on what is going on with the small Hindu population in Baluchistan. Since The Friday Times does not maintain archives, I cannot give you the original publication). Likewise, "liberals" steadfastly ignoring or denying that there is a political problem "Dravidian versus Aryan" in India and Sri Lanka that is fed off particular versions of history leaves the field open for "extremists". -Arun Gupta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 INDOLOGY, suvidya@o... wrote: > > People, > > Please get a grip on yourself. Whatever our gripes about > each other, India, Europe, the West are partners and > competitors, but not enemies. > > For the last forty years at least, Indologists have not been > Nazis. At least in Western Europe, US and Canada, Nazis have > pretty much been purged, pushed to the fringe, sidelined. > > Nor are the Hindutvavaadis fascists or Nazis. You may be > alarmed by them, but that is no excuse for misidentification. I know the note is addressed to people, Arun; don't forget that horses also become 'hindutva horses' in the hands of academics who indulge in the politics of Bha_rata. It is about the saffron in the Indian tricolor flag, I suppose. What a blunder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 satish, > And you think you Europeans are going well, dont you? Wait a few more > decades when the last vestiges of your loot vanish. I just hope I am > alive to see that day. But in any case at that time you will be in an > old peoples home surviving on the labour of young Asian workers. this comment of yours was in bad taste, even if you were angry at anyone. in understand your feeling but the present day indologist is not looting, solets not make our statements personal unless they are personal. thanks, shashikant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.