Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 On 2001-06-25 11:08. Jogesh Panda yogeshpanda: > I find Deshpande's <sAdarI karoti> a little too > fanciful [no offence]. Much of the Maratha > administrative terminology is influenced by those of > the Mughal court. I have no doubt about the validity of the second statement made here, although efforts were made through Raajya-vyavahaara-ko;sa etc. to counter the trend the statement notes. The first statement, however, is unfair to Deshpande. He meant sAdarI karoti as a very recent usage. It indeed is found and I would give the same reasoning for its adoption as Deshpande has given. ashok aklujkar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 I know of two meanings : 1. sAdar (with respect) as in "sAdar pranam" 2. sAdar (to present) as in "sAdar karne" (hindi - "hajir karna") Both can be used in court language and used widely. Mandar INDOLOGY, aklujkar <aklujkar@I...> wrote: > On 2001-06-25 11:08. Jogesh Panda yogeshpanda: > > > I find Deshpande's <sAdarI karoti> a little too > > fanciful [no offence]. Much of the Maratha > > administrative terminology is influenced by those of > > the Mughal court. > > I have no doubt about the validity of the second statement made > here, although efforts were made through Raajya-vyavahaara-ko;sa etc. > to counter the trend the statement notes. > The first statement, however, is unfair to Deshpande. He meant > sAdarI karoti as a very recent usage. It indeed is found and > I would give the same reasoning for its adoption as Deshpande > has given. > > ashok aklujkar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 --- aklujkar <aklujkar wrote: > The first statement, however, is unfair to > Deshpande. He meant sAdarI karoti > as a very recent usage. It indeed is found and I > would give the same > reasoning for its adoption as Deshpande has given. > > ashok aklujkar I did not mean to be mean [unfair, that is] to Deshpande. I failed to notice that <He meant sAdarI karoti as a very recent usage>. I thought he was trying to derive <sadar> used in the sense of <the court, durbar etc.> from <sAdarI karoti>. I find it to be <fanciful> when people/scholars explain away the simple instance of an Arabic loan word with a worked-up Indo-Aryan or Dravidian etyma. I think [i would love to be proven otherwise] that Hindu India is in a state of denial of the Islamite [Perso-Arabic] legacy. Best wishes, Jogesh Panda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 Most Marathi people who have been using some of the perso-arabic vocabulary as part of the overall Marathi vocabulary for about five or six centuries are not aware of the origin of the words they use in their daily life. It would come as a great surprise to most Marathi people to find that the word 'zamiin' for land is a foreign word. While individual perso-arabic words (mostly revenue terms, since the Bahmani period) entered Marathi usage, only a very small number of Marathi speakers had any direct knowledge of Persian or Arabic languages. On the other hand, relatively more Marathi speakers knew Sanskrit. Therefore, it seems that a number of these perso-arabic words, especially ones that had similar sounding Sanskritic parallels in common usage, were naturally reinterpreted as being of Sanskritic origin. This was certainly the case with the word 'sAdar' because of its similarity with an on-going usage of Sanskritic sAdaram praNamati. The modern Sanskrit usage of saadarii-karoti has nothing to do with Hindu nationalism. The usage predates the emergence of the so-called Hindu nationalist politics. This is simple analogical reinterpretation. Notice that no such reinterpretation was carried out for the word 'sadar', but only for 'sAdar'. Madhav Deshpande INDOLOGY, Jogesh Panda <yogeshpanda> wrote: > --- aklujkar <aklujkar@I...> wrote: > > The first statement, however, is unfair to > > Deshpande. He meant sAdarI karoti > > as a very recent usage. It indeed is found and I > > would give the same > > reasoning for its adoption as Deshpande has given. > > > > ashok aklujkar > > I did not mean to be mean [unfair, that is] to > Deshpande. I failed to notice that <He meant sAdarI > karoti as a very recent usage>. I thought he was > trying to derive <sadar> used in the sense of <the > court, durbar etc.> from <sAdarI karoti>. > > I find it to be <fanciful> when people/scholars > explain away the simple instance of an Arabic loan > word with a worked-up Indo-Aryan or Dravidian etyma. > I think [i would love to be proven otherwise] that > Hindu India is in a state of denial of the Islamite > [Perso-Arabic] legacy. > > Best wishes, > > Jogesh Panda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 --- mmdesh wrote: > it seems that a number of these perso-arabic words, > especially ones that had similar sounding Sanskritic > parallels in common usage, were naturally > reinterpreted as being of Sanskritic origin. And I thought that you were offering an [alternate] etymology of the word <sAdar>. My mistake. I should have known that you were offering an example of the sociology of interpretations. > The modern Sanskrit usage of saadarii-karoti > has nothing to do with Hindu nationalism. The > usage predates the emergence of the so-called Hindu > nationalist politics. This is simple analogical > reinterpretation. I could not agree more. I did not intend to imply that Hindu nationalistic politics has anything to do with the example you give, or that you personally have anything to do with Hindu nationalistic politics, nor is it my concern if any one does Hindu nationalistic politics. I meant what I said. For example, I had a friend who wrote and published seven volumes of his Comparative Etymological Lexicon of Indo-European (Indo-Germanisches)Languages, wherein he set out to derive all IE words [including loan words] from some Sanskrit root or other. Zamin/jamin is from Skt. janmin etc. I know he had nothing to do with Hindu nationalistic politics. But he was the sort of person who could have written a book titled <Arabic traced to Sanskrit>. My statement about Hindu India's denial of the legacy of Islamite culture relates to persons like him. > Notice that no such reinterpretation was carried out > for the word 'sadar', but only for 'sAdar'. This I fail to understand. Nevertheless, I regret if I hurt your feelings. I have read some of your works, and am appreciative of your labour and scholarship. Best wishes, Jogesh Panda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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