Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Is "pratimA" (idol, icon, image, etc.,) in Sanskrit an Indo-European word? If not, it may have something to do with Dravidian, DED 3186. On Line Tamil Lexicon: paTi-tal 01 1. to settle, as dust or sediment; 2. to gather, as cream; 3. to rest, as clouds upon a mountain; to alight; to roost, as birds; 4. to be subjugated; to be trained, disciplined or tamed; 5. to become orderly, settled, as handwriting; 6. to obey; 7. to bathe; to sink in water; to be immersed; 8. to close, as eyes; 9. to become compressed, flattened, as olas, leaves, leather; 10. to subside, as water; 11. to be joined, united; 12. to fall prostrate; to enjoy, experience >From the tamil verb, paTital, the noun formed is "paTimam"/"paTimai". The gods settling on the icon, paTimam. pa- in paTimam/paTimai can change to pra- in pratimA as in the examples given by F. Kuiper, Aryans in the Rgveda, p. 70-71. a) pava.la/pava_la > pravAla/pravADa b) tami_l > dramiDa c) kamuku > kramuka etc., And, paTimam -> pratimA with -T-/-t- alternations as in kaTavu/katavu 'door', paTalai/patalai 'drum', yATavan/yAtavan 'shepherd'. The connection beteween skt. pratimaa and tamil paTimai was first noted by iLampUrana aTikaL in his commentary on sUtra 30, akattiNai iyal, tolkAppiyam (ancient tamil grammar). iLampUraNar comments on paTimai as "tEvarkku oppumaiyAka nilattin2kaN ceytu amaitta tEvarmEl vantatu". Roughly, iLampUraNar's words: "paTimai = vigraham in this earth upon which gods descend". iLampUraNar takes pratimA as the source, and paTimai as the Tamil derivation. Could it be the other way around?, That is for a long time, dramiDa was thought to give birth to the word, "tami_l". Now Linguists take tami_l > skt. dramiDa. Likewise, is paTimai/paTimam > skt. pratimA? Appreciations for any thoughts if pratimA is IE, or the link between drav. paTimai/paTimam can be explored. Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2001 Report Share Posted July 2, 2001 INDOLOGY, naga_ganesan@h... wrote: > > Is "pratimA" (idol, icon, image, etc.,) in Sanskrit an > Indo-European word? > [...] > From the tamil verb, paTital, the noun > formed is "paTimam"/"paTimai". The gods settling on > the icon, paTimam. pa- in paTimam/paTimai > can change to pra- in pratimA as in > the examples given by F. Kuiper, > Aryans in the Rgveda, p. 70-71. Please note that for MTL (Madras Tamil Lexicon, p.2438), Tamil has borrowed paTimam from Pkt. paDimA, which is supposed to be derived from Skt. pratimA. Interestingly, at least four other words are also considered by MTL to be derived from Pkt. (and ultimately from Skt. pratimA) They are: paTimai (< Pkt. paDimA < pratimA ) [MTL, p. 2438] paTivam (< Pkt. paDimA < pratimA ) [MTL, p. 2439] pommal(2) (< Pkt. bommA < pratimA ) [MTL, p. 2925] pommai (< Pkt. bommA. [K bombe] The words pommai and pommal were already discussed on CTamil (along with the word pAvai) recently, after a query by prof. Peter Claus. See: <CTamil/message/41> <CTamil/message/39> I hope this is useful. Regards. -- Jean-Luc Chevillard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2001 Report Share Posted July 4, 2001 INDOLOGY, "Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD" <JLC@C...> wrote: ... > Please note that for MTL (Madras Tamil Lexicon, p.2438), > Tamil has borrowed paTimam from Pkt. paDimA, > which is supposed to be derived from Skt. pratimA. > > Interestingly, at least four other words > are also considered by MTL to be derived from Pkt. > (and ultimately from Skt. pratimA) > They are: > paTimai (< Pkt. paDimA < pratimA ) [MTL, p. 2438] > paTivam (< Pkt. paDimA < pratimA ) [MTL, p. 2439] > pommal(2) (< Pkt. bommA < pratimA ) [MTL, p. 2925] > pommai (< Pkt. bommA. [K bombe] The Madra Tamil Lexicon's etymologies are generally considered to be outdated and, unbalanced and inconsistent to say the least. MTL committee seems to have been unaware of all but 4 or 5 of the 20+ Dravidian languages. The Dravidian Etymological Dictionary - Revised compiled in 1984 ( revision of the 1968 DED) is 40 years newer than MTL and rejects wholesale MTL's etymologies. Anyway, DEDR says Ta. pommai, pommal *are* Dravidian: #4530 lists Ta. pommai, pommal, Ma. bomma, Ka. bombe, Tu. bombe, Te. bomma, Kol. bomma, Pa. bomma, Kuwi. bomma, boma in the senses of doll, image, pupil of the eye, effigy, puppet, eyebrow, picture, and eye. > The words pommai and pommal were already discussed > on CTamil (along with the word pAvai) recently, > after a query by prof. Peter Claus. See: > <CTamil/message/41> > <CTamil/message/39> > > I hope this is useful. > Regards. > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard P.Chandrasekaran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2001 Report Share Posted July 4, 2001 INDOLOGY, Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra> wrote: > Anyway, DEDR says Ta. pommai, pommal *are* Dravidian: > #4530 lists > Ta. pommai, pommal, > Ma. bomma, Ka. bombe, Tu. bombe, Te. bomma, Kol. bomma, > Pa. bomma, Kuwi. bomma, boma > in the senses of doll, image, pupil of the eye, effigy, puppet, eyebrow, > picture, and eye. Dear Chandra, it is good you mention DEDR. In fact, the discussion I was referring to started precisely from DEDR entry 4530. That very entry was referred to when Peter Claus and other discussants (on VYAKARAN) were interested by the fact that in many indian (and non-indian) languages, the same word could refer to "puppet, doll, image, ..." and to "pupil of the eye, eyeball, ...". > > The words pommai and pommal were already discussed > > on CTamil (along with the word pAvai) recently, > > <CTamil/message/39> Coming to pAvai, which is entry 4107 in DEDR "Ta. pAvai: puppet, doll, image, picture, " portrait, pupil of the eye, woman, damsel. "Ma. pAva: doll, puppet "Ka. pApe, hAhe: figure, ornamental form, " puppet, doll, badge, ensign, pupil of the eye "Tu, pAp`e: image, statue, puppet, doll "Te, pApa: pupil of the eye, (K. also) image. "For meanings, cf 4365 Ta. pUvai. DED 3379 one interesting linguistic question is to understand how Tamil pommai and Tamil pAvai co-exist. An additional question, for which I would be very grateful to get a reference, is whether you know of any list of all the Tamil words that have a voiced initial: for instance, pommai is pronounced bommai, as far as I know. It would be good also if somebody could tell us whether the Pkt. bommA mentionned by MTL, p. 2925 exists and is now considered as borrowed from Dravidian. Finally, coming to MTL, Burrow and Emeneau write in the introduction of DEDR (p. xix): "The Lexicon of the four literary languages "are voluminous, especially the _Tamil Lexicon_ "which astonishes by the enormous range of vocabulary "contained in the literary record of approximately "two-millenia duration. On the other hand, not even "the _Tamil Lexicon_ is complete and usable "as a philological record of the language [...]" I do sincerely hope that all the parties involved in to-day's universities (and research institutes) of Tamil Nadu will unite their efforts and produce a NTL (New Tamil Lexicon), thus making the shortcomings of MTL, which you mentionned, a thing of the past Regards -- Jean-Luc Chevillard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2001 Report Share Posted July 4, 2001 INDOLOGY, "Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD" <JLC@C...> wrote: >[...] > I do sincerely hope that all the parties > involved in to-day's universities > (and research institutes) of Tamil Nadu > will unite their efforts > and produce a NTL (New Tamil Lexicon), > thus making the shortcomings of MTL, > which you mentionned, a thing of the past Dear Dr. Chevillard, Once Dr. George Hart inroduced me to prof. Emeneau. The DEDR author mentioned that at the time he wrote DED, ... he was too conservative. He said DEDR has to be vastly expanded with many entries from MTL added on. And, I heard he is preparing at this ripe old age of mid-90s, a new edition of DEDR with a long list added. Hope this info is useful. Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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