caste/varna

[Guest guest]

It is simplistic to try to cast castes in the varna system.If all castes could

be neatly put in the various varna baskets, there would not have been any need

for creating them in the first place. As a look for kayastha, ambastha, etc., in

a Sanskrit dictionary would reveal, many castes formed through cross-varna

marriages. Also incomers like Greeks,Huns,were assigned castes,which obviously

are non-varna.Ditto for native non-varna communities. Perhaps Bania are the only

caste that conforms to the ancient varna system. One could say this about

Brahmins also, but I suspect there has been brahminization.

Rajesh Kochhar

____

Prof.Rajesh Kochhar

National Institute of Science,Technology and Development Studies

Pusa Gate , K.S.Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012

Ph.:+11 5764064 , 5743227, 5765360 x 231. Fax 5754640

2nd email:rkochhar2000 Website http://nistads.res.in

_____

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

vpcnk asked:

 

> What percentage of the Indian population of the Kayasthas? Just

> because we're not able to fit them into one of the standard varnas, do

> it justify the above claim? I don't think such ambiguities exist for

> most other people in India who readily identify/or classified into one

> caste or another.

>

> Anyway if "Ghosh", "Datta", "Sen" are kayastas, I've often heard them

> referred to as kshatriyas. How many kayastas have been

> rulers/warriors?

 

I'm not sure about what fraction of Hindus are Kayasthas. My guess is someting

of the order of 0.5% to 1.5% (but having produced Vivekananda and Aurobido, they

are quite important). Some data is a available, but one needs to dig it out.

 

Here is a question. In you estimate

 

-What fraction of Hindus are brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra

respectively?

 

-What fraction of Hindus (male adults) have gone through the sacred thread

ceremony?

 

Chris Beetle wrote:

 

>The Gita itself

>contains an algorithm to place most people (Hindus or otherwise) into one of

>the four classes. In Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says in verse 4.13 that the

>fourfold divisions are based on a person's qualities (guna) and the work

>that he does (karma). Later in chapter 18, he lists the qualities of the

>brahmana (18.42) and the ksatriya (18.43) and the work of the vaisya and the

>sudra (18.44).

 

I will accept this. This is mentioned in several texts. This is a conceptual

division. Most Hindus today, by this definition, will fall into multiple varnas

at the same time.

 

Yashwant

 

 

 

 

 

Make a great connection at Personals.

 

 

[Guest guest]

>What fraction of Hindus are brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra

>respectively?

 

I can only say with regards TamilNadu from where I'm from. Others from

other states have to provide the relevant information.

 

In TN, there're only two varnas : brahmins and shudras. Brahmins form

only around 1% of the population - most are Iyers (smarthas), some are

Iyengars (Sri Vaishnavas) and there're a few Madhvas and

Sivaachaaryas. There're also a few brahmin populations from

neighbouring states - Vaideekis and Niyogis from Andhra, Namboodiris

from Kerala etc.

 

The Tamils - Vellaalar, Maravar, Paraiyar etc - are all classified as

shudras. There's a trading group called the "Chettiars" who are

similar to vaishyas - but still they also bear only the shudra tag.

But again since most brahmins too have abandoned their dharma and have

taken up all kinds of professions for a living, they too according to

tradition will have to be classified as shudras only. Nothing wrong

with it - if you do not live as per the dharma of a brahmin, you

cannot be a brahmin in the traditional sense.

 

In my mind the deregatory halo that the term "shudra" has acquired is

quite modern - as non-brahmin Tamil castes who are generally very

proud, don't ever seem to have objected to such a classification in

their long history.

 

But there're still a few brahmins who live their traditional dharma

even today.

 

But for matrimonial/social arrangments, since each caste group, has

its own distinct practices/customs etc neo-brahmins in that sense

identity themselves as "brahmins" - that other castes question such an

identification by neo-brahmins is indicative of what is expected of a

brahmin. Same way, the other castes are referred to as shudras only by

brahmins - by themselves they call themselves either Vellaalar,

Maravar etc

 

>

> -What fraction of Hindus (male adults) have gone through the sacred

thread ceremony?

>

> Chris Beetle wrote:

>

> >The Gita itself

> >contains an algorithm to place most people (Hindus or otherwise)

into one of

> >the four classes. In Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says in verse 4.13

that the

> >fourfold divisions are based on a person's qualities (guna) and the

work

> >that he does (karma). Later in chapter 18, he lists the qualities

of the

> >brahmana (18.42) and the ksatriya (18.43) and the work of the

vaisya and the

> >sudra (18.44).

>

> I will accept this. This is mentioned in several texts. This is a

conceptual division. Most Hindus today, by this definition, will fall

into multiple varnas at the same time.

>

> Yashwant

>

>

>

>

>

> Make a great connection at Personals.

>

>

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, Tiru. Nanda Chandran (vpcnk@H...) wrote:

> There is a caste called the Saiva Pillaimaar in

> TamilNadu who too are traditionally identified as being

> scribes/accountants - "kaNakku pillai" - but nobody has claimed

> braahmana status for them.

 

Please note that Saiva Vellalas/Pillais are *not* of

kaNakku piLLai caste. The kaNakku piLLais are called

karuNIkar/cIkaruNIkar (=zrIkarNIkar) etc., who are

the equivalent of kAyasth (In the south, sri-kAryasthar

in palaces, temples, etc.)

 

The Saiva Pillais as the sat-zUdras refered in Chola inscriptions.

Pallava-Chola political rule (Cf. B. Stein's theory)

is largely the result of Saiva Pillai - Brahmana alliance,

and tamil bhakti literature invokes that co-operation.

 

Tamil kaNakka piLLais were sometimes vehemently opposed

to brahmins, and this is seen in tamil literature for

centuries. Ashvaghosha (like modern tantric - Aurobindo Ghosh)

could be a kAyastha (like kaNakkapiLLais

of Tamil Nadu, kulkarNis of Maharashtra etc.,)

Ashvaghosa ridicules many Hindu myths, and the same

stories are repeated by JayamkoNTAr, a 11th century

Chola court poet, in his lokAyata work. JayamkoNTar

hailed from DeepanguDi, and his patron AthinAthan of KArANai

mentioned as a Srikarunikar and A.'s inscriptions exist

in temples like Srirangam etc., AthinAthan was a general

of Kulottunga Chola I. Modern karunIkars

have been Tamil savants - Saint Ramalinga ADikaL,

Auvai Doraisamy Pillai, ...

 

There is a theory that the accountant caste whose god is

Citragupta may be originally potters. After all,

potters scratch on the kalazas, and writing is born.

The intense rivalry between potters and accountants

is told in many tamil legends (eg. there is an akaval

verse and prose commentary quoted in medieval commentaries

of TolkAppiyam grammar).

 

Didn't at one time a Kashmir king announce that

every Kashmiri is a pundit and a brahmin? (to offset

Muslim demographic growth). At that time, may be,

kAyasths might have become brahmins.

 

More later,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

> Please note that Saiva Vellalas/Pillais are *not* of

> kaNakku piLLai caste. The kaNakku piLLais are called

> karuNIkar/cIkaruNIkar (=zrIkarNIkar) etc., who are

> the equivalent of kAyasth (In the south, sri-kAryasthar

> in palaces, temples, etc.)

 

Ganesan, many thanks for the clarification.

 

> Ashvaghosha (like modern tantric - Aurobindo Ghosh)

> could be a kAyastha (like kaNakkapiLLais

> of Tamil Nadu, kulkarNis of Maharashtra etc.,)

> Ashvaghosa ridicules many Hindu myths,

 

Traditionally in Buddhist literature it has been held that Ashvaghosha

was a braahmana from Eastern India - Bengal or Orissa. DT Suzuki in

his translation of the Shraadothpaadashaastram even asserts that

Ashvaghosa was of the Vedaanta school who was converted to Buddhism -

his metaphysics does bear close resemblence to the Upanishads and

later Advaita. That he heaps abuse on the caste system in the

Vajrasoochi itself need not be taken as proof that he was not a

braahmana, because throughout history there've been a lot of

braahmanas who've done the same - Baasava, Bhaarathiar etc

[Guest guest]

> Didn't at one time a Kashmir king announce that

> every Kashmiri is a pundit and a brahmin? (to offset

> Muslim demographic growth).

 

There is one thing that people should be aware about

 

Brahmin dynamics differ from one region to another.

 

Brahmins have no central authority which regulates their ranks. It is

controlled within the region by local brahmin groups who jealously

guard their sects and also by the public who choose to recognize them.

 

For example in TamilNadu, Namboodiris will not be recognizes as

brahmins - either by the populace or by ordinaryTamil brahmins. My

mother thinks that Namboodiris are sorcerers! Sure some knowlegable

aachaarya in a matha, say like the Kaanchi aachaarya, might know of

them, but such knowledge is not present in the general public.

 

It will work the same way for Tamil Brahmins in Kerala - I don't think

the Iyers in Palaghat enjoy the same respect as Namboodiris amongst

the Keralites. Iyengars will probably not even be recognized as

brahmins in Kerala.

 

Even if a new brahmin group moves into their region, it takes a long

time for that group to get accepted by the local brahmins. And even

then as we have historically seen in TamilNadu they do not intermarry

with each other - like even within the smaartha sects in TamilNadu,

Vadamaas do not marry with other sects like the Brhacharanam or the

Ashtasaahasram. And this is the situation between people of the same

sect - if they belong to different religious sects they are totally

antogonistic to each other and deny brahminhood to the other totally -

like the smaarthas and the Sri Vaishnavas have traditionally rejected

the brahminhood of each other.

 

So what happens in Kashmir might have little or no relevance to other

regions in the land.