Enquiry about Tamil Grammars

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, narayan prasad <prasad_cwprs> wrote:

> Dear List Members,

>

> Can anybody tell me whether a complete English

> translation of the following Tamil grammatical works

> is available ?

>

> (1) the PoruLatikAram portion of TolkAppiyam

>

> At B.O.R.I. I have come across translations only

> in fragments by two authors.

 

The bibliography at the end of John Ralston Marr's book,

_The Eight Anthologies_ (Institute of Asian Studies, Madras, 1985)

mentions several items by P.S. Subrahmanya Sastri

* transl. of akattiNai & puRattiNai (Mylapore, 1949)

* transl. of kaLaviyal, kaRpiyal & poruLiyal (Mylapore, 1952)

* translation of meyppATTiyal & uvamaiyiyal,

Journal of Oriental Research, Madras, XXI(1953) & XXII (1954)

* translation of ceyyuLiyal

in jORM XXII, XXIII & XXIV

 

It also mentions a partial translation

by E.S. Varadaraja Aiyar, published

by Annamalai University, Annamalai nagar, 1948

 

>

> (2)NannUl of Pavanandi

 

As far as nan2n2Ul is concerned,

the South India Saiva Siddhanta Works

have published a set of two volumes containing

[1] the English translation

of the "special preface" (ciRappup pAyiram)

and of the "general introduction" (potup pAyiram)

by H. Bower

[2] the English translation

of the "Orthography" (eZuttatikAram)

and of the "Etymology" (collatikAram)

by J. Lazarus

 

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Narayan Prasad

 

I hope this helps

 

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, narayan prasad <prasad_cwprs> wrote:

> > Can anybody tell me whether a complete English

> > translation of the following Tamil grammatical works

> > is available ?

> >

> > (1) the PoruLatikAram portion of TolkAppiyam

> >

> > At B.O.R.I. I have come across translations only

> > in fragments by two authors.

> > (2)NannUl of Pavanandi

 

 

a) Even tho' this pertains to modern grammars, this may contin

ref.s to NannUl:

Tacaratan, A., 1950- / An annotated bibliography on modern Tamil

grammars and Tamil handbooks. / 1st ed. / (Trivandrum) / 1983

 

b) For a translation of nannUl,

Pavananti, fl. 1178-1214.

Nannul. English & Tamil

Nannul, a perceptive and comprehensive translation in English =

Na_n_nul, Ankila mo_lipeyarppu. Madurai : M.K. Sripathi ; Madras :

Copies can be had at Mohamed Sathak College of Arts and Science, 1995.

DESCRIPTION:

831 p ; 26 cm.

OCLC NUMBER:

37282532

 

c) An old commentary of NannUl, long thought to have

been lost, has been found and published. The author

was from Jaffna, Sri Lanka.

 

Na_n_nul mulamum Ku_lankaittampira_n uraiyum / edited by A.

Dhamotharan. Wiesbaden : Steiner, 1980.

NOTES:

In Tamil; introd. in English and Tamil.

Commentator:

Ku_lankaittampira_n, 1699?-1795.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

I express sincere thanks to Dr Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD

 

for supplying information about the English

translation of the (1)PoruLatikAram portion of

TolkAppiyam and (2)Nan2n2Ul of Pavanandi.

 

So far as the English translation of the former is

concerned, the supplied information covers only eight

'iyals' or chapters. Is it that

the last iyal remains still untranslated ?

 

******************************************************

< As far as nan2n2Ul is concerned, the South India

< Saiva Siddhanta Works have published a set of two

< volumes ...

******************************************************

May I get the full postal address including email

address, if any, of the South India Saiva Siddhanta

Works?

 

With best regards,

 

Narayan Prasad

[Guest guest]

> So far as the English translation of the former is

> concerned, the supplied information covers only eight

> 'iyals' or chapters. Is it that

> the last iyal remains still untranslated ?

 

This is difficult to say. I have not seen these items

and I have seen contradictory bibliographical

informations about P.S. Subrahmanya Sastri's

translation of tolkAppiyam poruLatikAram (=TP)

and it is quite possible that he also translated

the last iyal (= marapiyal).

 

See for instance the references given by Esa Itkonen

on <http://www.tsv.fi/ttapaht/986/itkonen.htm>

where he mentions a (full?) translation of TP by PSSS,

published by the The Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute

(Mylapore, Chennai) in 1949-1956.

 

 

But see also the (possibly wrong?) reference given on p.323

of Buck & Paramasivam 's book,

_The Study of Stolen Love_, Scholar's press,

Atlanta, Georgia, USA,

where the translation is said to be "recent" (?)

and dated 1994.

 

I would be grateful to you (or to anybody on this list)

if you (or they) could give us the exact

bibliographical reference.

 

 

>

> ******************************************************

> < As far as nan2n2Ul is concerned, the South India

> < Saiva Siddhanta Works have published a set of two

> < volumes ...

> ******************************************************

> May I get the full postal address including email

> address, if any, of the South India Saiva Siddhanta

> Works?

 

In a book published in 1993, I read the following address:

The South India Saiva Siddhanta Works Publishing Society,

Tinnevelly Limited

154, T.T.K. Road

Alwar Pet

Madras 600 018

 

Regards

 

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard

<http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/>

[Guest guest]

Many thanks to Dr N Ganesan and Dr Jean-Luc

Chevillard for supplying the information.

 

In the last email Dr Chevillard wrote:

******************************************************

....I have seen contradictory bibliographical

informations about P.S. Subrahmanya Sastri's

translation of tolkAppiyam poruLatikAram (=TP)...

 

I would be grateful to you (or to anybody on this

list)if you (or they) could give us the exact

bibliographical reference.

*******************************************************

I have seen the English translation of TP by

PSSS(1952) about which the exact reference is as

follows:

 

******************************************************

TOLKAPPIYAM

 

The Earliest Extant Tamil Grammar

 

Text in Tamil and Roman Scripts with a critical

Commentary in English

 

BY

P.S. SUBRAHMANYA SASTRI, M.A., Ph.D.

 

PORUL-ATIKARAM-Tamil Poetics

Part II - Kalaviyal, Karpiyal and Porul-Iyal

 

THE KUPPUSWAMI SASTRI RESEARCH INSTITUTE

MYLAPORE, MADRAS

1952

******************************************************

This part consists of pp.63-134 and sUtra Nos.89-244.

The page numbering appears to be in continuation of

the first part.

 

In 1996 I had the chance to see another

translation of the first iyal (or first two iyals?) of

TP by Sarma R. Vasudeva, pub: Murugavilas Jananukoola

Press, Trichinopoly, 1933. I will inform about the

exact details through a personal email after having a

fresh look at it, when I visit BORI in a week or so.

 

Dr K Meenakshi in her "TOLKAPPIYAM AND ASTADHYAYI"

 

(1997) mentions at p.473:

Zvelebil Kamil: TolkaAppiyam English translation,

Journal of Tamil Studies, Vol.2-8,13,20-21. From 1972.

 

I do not know whether this translation covers TP

or not.

 

Best regards.

 

Narayan Prasad

 

 

__________

Nokia Game is on again.

Go to http://uk./nokiagame/ and join the new

all media adventure before November 3rd.

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, narayan prasad <prasad_cwprs> wrote:

> I have seen the English translation of TP by

> PSSS(1952) about which the exact reference is as

> follows:

>

> ******************************************************

> TOLKAPPIYAM

>

> The Earliest Extant Tamil Grammar

>

> Text in Tamil and Roman Scripts with a critical

> Commentary in English

>

> BY

> P.S. SUBRAHMANYA SASTRI, M.A., Ph.D.

>

> PORUL-ATIKARAM-Tamil Poetics

> Part II - Kalaviyal, Karpiyal and Porul-Iyal

>

> THE KUPPUSWAMI SASTRI RESEARCH INSTITUTE

> MYLAPORE, MADRAS

> 1952

> ******************************************************

> This part consists of pp.63-134 and sUtra Nos.89-244.

> The page numbering appears to be in continuation of

> the first part.

Dear Narayan Prasad,

thanks for your information.

I too have been able to locate a reference,

to part III, in an article published online

by Ulrike Niklas in Kolam

<http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/kolam

/kolam3/ceyyul1/ceyyul1.html> (URL pieces to be pasted)

It says:

Tolkappiyam - ... Porul-Atikaram - Tamil Poetics.

Part III - Meyppattiyal - Uvamaiyiyal - Ceyyuliyal - Marapiyal",

The Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute, Madras, 1956

 

So, putting together all the pieces, the translation

is complete, covers the 9 iyal-s, and we have the following dates:

Part I (2 iyal-s): 1949

Part II (3 iyal-s): 1952

Part III (4 iyal-s): 1956

 

Although Prof. Marr's book (which I mentionned

in a former message) bears the date of 1985,

one should note that it is in fact

a Ph.D. dissertation submitted in 1958,

which must be the reason why Part III is not mentionned in it.

 

Also, I was able to examine a few old issues

of the "Journal of Oriental Research, Madras" (JORM)

in the library of the "Société Asiatique (Paris)" today

and could understand how the book had been prepared.

For instance, JORM vol. XVI, part III (dated 1948)

contains as an appendix supernumerary pages,

containing fragments of P.S.S.S. 's translation of TP,

that bear page numbers starting from 19 and going upto 26.

And similarly, JORM vol. XVI, part IV (dated 1949)

contains supernumerary pages with page numbers 27-35.

 

This means that the translation was published

little by little

as a "feuilleton", and when they had a significant

number of pages, they would bind them together,

and the process was completed in 1956.

 

It was of course (unfortunately !)

a pipe-dream on my part to believe,

when I saw Buck & Paramasivam's reference

(already mentionned) that the translation

had been reprinted in 1994:

it is simply that two digits, "4" and "9",

have been inverted.

 

The only Tolkappiyam translation by P.S.S.S.

that was printed several times is that

of collatikAram, first published in 1945,

and then republished in 1979 by Annamalai University.

 

His translation of eZuttatikAram

also was only printed once, in 1930.

 

>

> Dr K Meenakshi in her "TOLKAPPIYAM AND ASTADHYAYI"

>

> (1997) mentions at p.473:

> Zvelebil Kamil: TolkaAppiyam English translation,

> Journal of Tamil Studies, Vol.2-8,13,20-21. From 1972.

>

> I do not know whether this translation covers TP

> or not.

 

No, Prof. Zvelebil's translation,

which was also published as a "feuilleton" in the JTS

only goes upto the end of the 3rd chapter of collatikAram

(the last fragment appeared in issue 28, in 1985)

>

> Best regards.

>

> Narayan Prasad

 

Best wishes.

 

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)

 

P.S. More details could be given on other translations

of tolkAppiyam, as for instance the one by Ilakkuvanar,

but this post is already very long

and I suspect it would be probably

better to continue it on a specialised discussion

list, like CTAMIL, which I had indeed

started a few months ago, for that very reason, see:

<CTamil/message/1>

>

> __________

> Nokia Game is on again.

> Go to http://uk./nokiagame/ and join the new

> all media adventure before November 3rd.

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Narayanaprasad,

 

Here are some more works in English that will be of use

to know about the ancient tolkAppiyam, said to be

the first book extant,

 

P. S. Subrahmanya Sastri, EzuttatikAram, with Eng. paraphrase

(JORM, 1930), CollatikAram, With an English commentary (1-3,

JORM, 1937); as book, Annamalai Univ., 1945), PoruL AtikAram

- Tamil Poetics (1945, 1952, 1956, Kuppuswami Sastri Research

Inst.);

 

S. Ilakkuvanar (PSS' student), Tholkappiyam (in English)

with Critical studies, Madurai, 1963

(S.I's son, Ci. I. Maraimalai (prof., dept. of Tamil,

Presidency College, Madras) reprinted it 3-4 years ago.

I'll send prof. Maraimalai's email in private).

 

P. S. Vedachala Iyer, The sources of Tolkappiyam,

JORM, VII (1933) 53-58.

 

T. P. Meenakshisundaran, Theory of Poetry in Tolkappiyar,

Tamil Culture I (1952) 2.104=113.

 

A. Sankaranarayanan, The Concept and Structure of Poetry

in Tolkappiyam, M. Litt. thesis, Univ. Madras, 1962

 

T. P. Meenakshisundaran, Tolkappiyar's Literary theory,

Tamil Culture XII (1966) 2/3, 117-125.

 

S. Subramanian, A critical study of Tolkappiyam

(Eluttu and Col) and NannUl - With Linguistic Perspective

(2 vols.), Ph.D. diss., UMadras, 1967

 

X. S. Thaninayagam, Tolkappiyam - the Earliest Record,

JTS, 1 (Sept. 1972) 61-70

 

V. Sp. Manickam, An introduction to the study of Tolkappiyam,

JTS, 1 (Sept. 1972) 39-42

 

A. S. Gnanasambandan, Tolkappiyar's Concept of Uvamai,

JTS, 4 (Dec. 1973) 1-12

 

Hartmut Scharfe, Tolkappiyam studies, in

German scholars in India, vol. I (1973) 268-278

 

S. N. Kandaswamy, The Age of TolkAppiyam

JTS 20 (Dec. 1981) 37-71

 

D. Albert (trans.), TolkAppiyam - Phonology and

Morphology (An English translation),

Intern. Inst. Tamil Studies, Madras, 1985

 

E. S. Varadaraja Iyer, TolkAppiyam - Porulatikaram,

Vol. I & II (1948) Annamalai Univ.

 

R. Vasudeva Sarma, Tol-Kappiyam, Porulatikaram

Teppakulam (Trichinopoly) 1933.

 

S. Agesthialingom, N. Kumaraswami Raja, eds.

Studies in early Dravidian grammars: Proc. of the

Seminar, Annamalai U., 1978, 356 p.

 

T. Nataraja Sarma, The simile in Tamil - a comparative

study of Tolkappiyam uvamai iyal and Thandiyalankaram

uvamai aNi. Nagercoil: Jayakumari Stores, 1971

 

T. Natarajan, The language of Sangam literature and

Tolkappiyam, Madurai: Madurai Pub. House, 1977

329 p.

 

S. Subrahmanyan, A critical study of Tolkappiyam

(ezuttu and col.) and NannUl. Nagercoil: Doss

Book Centre, 1977-, pt.1, v. 1, Phonology, 176 p.

 

K. Vellaivaranan, A history of Tamil literature:

Tolkappiyam. Annamalai U., 1957, 320 p.

(Had the honor of meeting Saiva-tiru. VeLLaivAraNanAr,

I suspect this may be in Tamil).

 

K. Zvelebil et al.,

a) Intro. to the historical grammar of the

Tamil language, Part I - Prelim. textual analysis

USSR Academy of Sciences, Nauka Pub. house, 1967

b) Intro. to the hist. gr. of the Tamil language,

Pub. house of the Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences,

Prague 1970

 

Takanobu Takahashi, Poetry and Poetics - Literary

Conventions of Tamil Love Poetry, Ph.D. diss.,

Univ. of Utrecht, 1989

[Published as Tamil love poetry and poetics

Publisher: Leiden : E.J. Brill, 1995.

xii, 255 p.]

 

V. S. Rajam, A comparative study of two ancient grammatical

traditions: The Tamil Tolkaappiyam Compared with the Sanskrit

Rk-Pratisakhya, Taittiriya-Pratisakhya, Apisali Siksa and

Astadhyayi, PhD doss., U. Penn., 1981

 

V. S. Rajam, A reference grammar of classical Tamil poetry,

American Philosophical Society, 1992. 1081 p.

 

[Dr. Rajam's email: rajam @ best.com Now in a Silicon

valley co. Basic degree in Math.]

 

>Dr K Meenakshi in her "TOLKAPPIYAM AND ASTADHYAYI"

>(1997) mentions at p.473:

> Zvelebil Kamil: TolkaAppiyam English translation,

>Journal of Tamil Studies, Vol.2-8,13,20-21. From 1972.

 

The bibliographic details of the partial

Zvelebil translation of tolkAppiyam are:

TolkAppiyam; CiRappuppAyiram; EzuttatikAram,

JTS 1 (Sept. 1972) 43-60, 2 (Dec. 1972) 13-29,

3 (Sept. 1973) 17-27, 4 (Dec. 1973) 13-23,

5 (Sept. 1974) 34-36, 7 (June, 1975) 62-66,

8 (Dec. 1975) 8-11. CollatikAram, JTS 13

(June 1978) 79-86, 20 (Dec. 1981) 5-14,

21 (June 1982) 9-19, 28 (Dec. 1985) 67-80

(unfinished, last nURpA trans. Col. 117).

 

Tol. Col. contains 453-463 aphorisms (depening on

various arrangements) in 9 chapters.

 

> May I get the full postal address including email

>address, if any, of the South India Saiva Siddhanta

>Works?

 

A pioneer publishing house in Tamil, and a leader in

spreading the "tan2ittamiz" movement. Their journal,

centamiz-c-celvi contains learned articles over the years

(some others: centamiz of Madurai Tamil Sangam started

by Pandithurai Thevar and Baskara Sethupathi of Ramnad

Samasthanam, and tamiz-p-pozil of Karandai Tamil Sangam).

SISS was ably run for decades by the late Tiru. va.

cuppaiyApiLLai, his two daughters were given in marriage

to MuttukkumAracAmi and KaliyANacuntaram. Now both of

them too are no more.Their children have moved to USA.

Will check with Mrs. Valli who's married US Airforce

surgeon.

 

ten2n2intiya caivacittAnta kazakam (SISS society)

library and photo collections is fabulous. Many tamil books

(eg., 19th century printed works) are just one of a kind

in the whole world. One time, Roja Muttaiah Library (Madras)

and U. Chicago were launching an effort to catalog them

and microfiche them. Surely, James Nye

(jnye @ midway.uchicago.edu) would know.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, narayan prasad <prasad_cwprs> wrote:

> Can anybody tell me whether a complete English

> translation of the following Tamil grammatical works

> is available ?

[...]

> (2)NannUl of Pavanandi

>

> The author of KeraLa-PANinIyam(2nd edition) has

> mentioned an English translation (that also

> incomplete) by W. Joyas and S. Samuel Pillai. But I

> have not come across it anywhere.

 

On Nannul translations along with details of

Joyes-Samuel Pillai's 19th century effort,

K. Zvelebil (p. 194, Tamil literature,

Leiden/Koln:E. J. Brill, 1975) writes:

"165. The best ed. of Nan2n2Ul is that by U. V. S. Aiyar

of 1918 (2nd ed., 1946); he had collated 15 Mss.

of the commentary. For early translations, cf. H. Bower,

Introduction to the Nannul: the Tamil text and English

translation with Appendices, Notes and Grammatical

terms, Madras, 1876; J. Lazarus, An English translation

of the Nannul, Madras, 1878. An early ed. is that by

S. Samuel Pillai, Tholcapya-Nunnool, revised by

W. Joyes, Madras, 1858; cf. also G. Vijayavenugopal,

A modern evaluation of Nannul (ezuttatikAram),

Annamalainagar, 1968. The earliest transl. into

English seems to be that W. Joyes, S. Samuel Pillai

and T. Brotherton, Madras, 1848 (only the

ezuttatikAram). Early editions appeared in Madras in

1840, 1846, 1851, 1860 and 1900; the earliest seems

to be that of 1839, of the text only (54 pp.)."

 

L. D. Barnett and the late G. U. Pope,

A catalogue of the Tamil books in

the Library of the British museum, 1909

p. 232,

"PavaNandi, Grammatica Tamuliensis, or

An English version [with the Tamil text]

of the celebrated Tamil Nunnool, with ...

notes, vocabulary, appendices, and extracts

from the ... commentary of Sunghara

Nama Sivayur. By W. Joyes and S. Samuel

Pillay. Revised and corrected by the

Rev. T. Brotherton. 6 pts. Madras, 1848-1851.

 

contains only ch. 1. No more was published."

 

Earlier, I provided some biblio data:

INDOLOGY/message/1717

INDOLOGY/message/1697

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan