Dalit Conversion Rally

[Guest guest]

http://hindustantimes.com/nonfram/031101/detCIT10.asp:

 

 

<<Permission for Dalit rally revoked

 

 

 

Paromita Mukhopadhyay

(New Delhi, November 2)

 

If a Dalit rally finally takes place at Ramlila Grounds on Sunday, it will

be thanks to the grit shown by organiser Ram Raj —- and despite the best

efforts of the government and the VHP.

Ram Raj, Joint Commissioner of Income Tax, and chairman of the All India

Confederation of SC/ST and of the Lord Buddha Club, had organised a

punarjagran (re-awakening) ceremony designed to ask one million Dalits to

revert to Buddhism, purportedly their

original religion. But with certain evangelical Christians announcing they

will use the event to convert a few to their own faith, alarm signals are

going off.

 

Deputy Commissioner of Police R S Krishna revoked permission on Wednesday on

the grounds that 1 million people cannot fit into Ramlila grounds in the

first place, and that Raj has concealed his links with Christian organisations.

 

[...]

 

Raj is planning to approach 'higher authorities' for the rally and proposes

to go ahead even if denied permission. "Now is too late to call off the

rally, for people have started travelling to Delhi," he says.>>

 

 

Any further developments in the matter?

 

With regards,

 

Artur Karp

 

University of Warsaw

Poland

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, Artur Karp <karp@m...> wrote:

> If a Dalit rally finally takes place at Ramlila Grounds on Sunday, it wil=

l

> be thanks to the grit shown by organiser Ram Raj —- and despite the best

> efforts of the government and the VHP.

[...]

> Any further developments in the matter?

 

Dear Dr. Karp,

 

In USA, the channels run by TV evangelists tell that

they are praying hard so that dalits (they pronounce "doll-it")

would embrace Christianity (rather than Buddhism) soon, and

they frequently mention 60-70 of Christians in India have a

dalit background.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

> Any further developments in the matter?

>

> With regards,

>

> Artur Karp

 

 

Dear Prof. Karp,

 

I include some information that you may find useful. It provides further detail.

 

Vikram

 

-----

 

Included: Clips form an Evangelical website, a letter by Ram Raj and a reply to

that.

 

.........

http://www.gfa.org/revival/dalits.html

........

 

[ *Note: The All India Christian Council (AICC) is given leadership by Dr.

Joseph D'Souza, President of OM India and Dr. K.P. Yohannan, President of Gospel

for Asia. The AICC is the largest evangelical forum in India today. The AICC has

over 2,100 evangelical mission organizations and denominations as members and

is involved in representing the suffering minority. The Council is committed to

mobilize the Church body to respond to this most urgent challenge. ]

 

This ongoing relationship and conversation with the Dalit leaders finally

culminated in a historic meeting just a few weeks ago, on September 7th, in

India. Over 740 of the top evangelical leaders across India were invited to come

together and meet with the Dalit leaders. When the meeting was over, the AICC

and Gospel for Asia had committed to help the Dalit people (or "untouchables")

of India. God has opened this door and no man can shut it.

 

Dalit leaders recently met with over 740 key evangelical Christian leaders in

India in a historic and unprecedented gathering. By God's grace, the Dalit

leaders have recognized that true hope and freedom for their people will not be

found in a physical revolution, but in another faith. They agreed to let their

people follow Christ if they choose to do so. The Christian leaders, in turn,

committed to helping this mass movement, despite the danger to their lives and

families.

 

Originally, some years ago, the Dalit leaders (specifically Ram Raj and others)

had met with certain Christians in India who had declined to accept these

overwhelming numbers of people into their churches. Discouraged, the Dalit

leaders, like their leader Dr. Ambedkar, then turned to Buddhism. This gathering

is planned for one million Dalits to convene in New Delhi on Nov. 4th to convert

to Buddhism. By God's grace, this will become a major gateway for millions to

experience hope and true freedom through our Lord.

 

............

>From persecuted_church_of_india/message/1142

............

 

PG VARGIS <PGVINDIA@c...>

Tue Oct 30, 2001 9:25 am

Did Peter ruin a wonderful opportunity?

 

 

 

-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

 

"Vishal Mangalwadi", INTERNET:mangalwadi@c...

"PG VARGIS", PGVINDIA

 

10/28/101 3:31 PM

 

RE: Did Peter ruin a wonderful opportunity?

 

 

Sunday, October 28, 2001

Vishal Mangalwadi

Re: Buddha & Christ, Ram Raj & Pudaite, Nov 4 & Baptisms

 

Dear Brother Ram Raj,

 

Thank you for sending me a copy of your letter (below) to Dr. Rochunga

Pudaite. It helps me understand another great man - the Apostle Peter.

Peter's influence on world history has been at least as great as Gautam

Buddha's and certainly greater than Constantine's. I am praying that you

will become India's Peter. In a massive, spontaneous rally in Jerusalem,

Peter led 3,000 Jews (who had been mocking him) to become followers of Jesus

Christ. That first conversion event kick-started the Christian Church.

Persecution followed; Christians were martyred; but the Church continued to

grow and bless the world in spite of many set backs.

 

A factor very relevant to your current situation is that just before

becoming the chief spokesman for Christ, Peter denied three times that he

had any relationship with Christ. He called down curses on himself and swore

that he did not even know Christ! This was because the Lord Jesus had been

arrested and Peter had good reasons to assume that he too would be

persecuted if he confessed that he was a part of Christ's inner circle.

 

It was inevitable that the militant Hindus would attack you because Dr.

Pudaite and K. P. Yohanan are raising Christian money in America to help

support the emancipation of dalits. There was never any doubt that some of

your dalit rivals would attack you for your relationship with Christians and

that some sincere Buddhists would dislike your willingness to forge an open

alliance with Christians who want dalits to follow Christ. Therefore it is

perfectly understandable that you would try to save your movement by

distancing yourself from those Christians who are your most open supporters.

 

However, at this moment you have to choose between your reputation and dalit

emancipation. If we really want to make a historic difference to the Indian

civilization then (among other things) we need at least 100,000 new schools

and 1,000,000 new small industries and businesses. If you leave this task

for the government of India, or the affluent upper castes, or at the mercy

of the "creamy layer" of the lower castes then it would not happen for many

more centuries. "Hindu dalits" will, at best, become "Buddhist dalits". The

social force that educated and transformed Europe and America was the

Christian Church not western governments. The American Church donates 100

times more money and manpower for charity than the government of America.

This is the force that you need behind you and Dr. Pudaite (Bibles For The

World) and K. P. Yohanan (Gospel For Asia - GFA) have done a great job of

rallying the American church behind your cause.

 

I am sorry that the GFA has now removed its website promoting your movement.

I hope Dr. Pudaite will not be bullied by the militant Hindus. The problem

with GFA website was not that it gave the exaggerated figure of 300 million

Hindus that are "in the valley of decision". Its problem was that it

understated the figures. The Other Backward Castes (OBCs) and SC/ST together

are at least 64% of India. So the victims of Hinduism number at least 640

million. They have no reason to remain Hindus. My advice (for whatever it is

worth) is that you should not enter politics as a dalit leader. You should

revive the Backward Classes Federation, which includes all the victims of

Hinduism, before you enter electoral politics. Meanwhile you can join hands

with Dr. Pudaite to establish Delhi International University to train an

army of dalit teachers and entrepreneurs to begin to shape India's future.

 

The militant Hindus and the upper caste press will do their best to separate

you from the Western Church. But that will not help your cause. Hinduism's

victims need greater, not lesser, international solidarity. Neither Dr.

Pudaite, nor KP Yohanan, nor you are taking any western help for yourself.

If Mother Teresa became a beggar, it was to bless the needy; and that is

nothing to be ashamed of. That is why the government of India itself is not

ashamed of asking for International aid.

 

It is tragic that the majority of Christian leaders have advised you against

baptizing anyone on Nov 4th rally. It is understandable that as a (de facto)

politician you will choose to side with the majority. In one sense I am sad

that Dr. Pudaite and I are in the minority. But I have never pretended to be

the voice of the Indian Church. I believe that the Indian Christian

leadership is wrong. Their fear of persecution is not baseless. But it is

wrong for shepherds to put their security above the need of the sheep. The

dalits coming to your rally on Nov 4th are sheep that want to get out of a

pen managed by wolves that have exploited them for 3,000 years. It is not

surprising that the wolves are mad. The Christian leaders who are reluctant

to embrace the sheep because of the fear of wolves are not following Christ

at this point, however sophisticated their rationalization. So, I am not sad

that I am in the minority. As I have argued in my book, conversion is the

revolution the Dalits need. At this point I am an Ambedkarite.

 

Europe was not reformed by Martin Luther forging political alliances with

weak and fearful Church leaders. It was reformed because at one point Luther

chose to stand alone and be martyred for truth. It was then that masses

rallied behind him. My prayer for you has always been that you will go

beyond rally to initiate India's reformation.

 

I respect Buddha. I am proud of him because my father was also from a Sakya

caste. However, I know enough about philosophy and history to know that

Buddhism is not going to make much of a difference to the dalits. Its

doctrines of karma and reincarnation will continue to explain inequalities

instead of eradicating them. The Buddhist denial of the reality of

immortality of the human soul made in God's image will fail to provide the

required basis for human dignity and fundamental rights to our nation.

Buddhism has no solution to the problem of sin in our souls. Therefore it

cannot regenerate us as the Gospel does. This means that Buddhism will never

give you followers whom you can trust. Dr. Pudaite, on the other hand, is

someone who will lay down his life for you, just as Jesus gave his life for

Peter who disowned him. It is understandable that you will invite only those

Christians on your platform that do not go beyond affirming their solidarity

with dalits and Buddhists. Such Christians might gain some mileage from your

rally, but they will not serve the cause of India's regeneration.

 

I will be there at the rally, although we may not see each other until the

5th on the occasion of the release of my book. Thank you for agreeing to

come for that function. I know some of your colleagues may not be unhappy

for you to support an evangelistic book. Therefore, I admire your courage

and appreciate your support.

 

Ruth joins me in sending you our regards.

May God bless you and make you a blessing

 

Vishal

 

Visit www.VishalMangalwadi.com

 

 

 

buddha@d... [buddha@d...]

Saturday, October 27, 2001 12:43 AM

R. pudaite

Cc: Dr. D'suja; JOHN DAYAL; sam@a...; Vishan Mangalwadi; sunil

sardar; K.P. Yohnan

urgent and important Clarification

Dear Dr. Rochunga Pudaite,

 

There are hundreds of people in my life who had lovingly called me dear Son.

And it is very often to say someone as a brother and sister and in similar

manner you must have called me Son. As you are spreading the news that you

have adopted me as your son so by now thousands and even millions would have

adopted me as their son. Please refrain from issuing such statements and

information to others. You insisted upon me to visit to your place to

discuss about setting up of International University in Noida, for Dalits.

You also asked me to pursue the matter with the government. There was no

religious part to my visit to you.

 

I had not asked you to baptize anyone, including myself on November 4th or

any other day and you had not been asked to invite people to join

Christianity on that day. I have not permitted to distibute any books on

that day at the cermenoy. I had been working hard for four years to

mobilise the people for Buddhism and in my foreword I have differed from you

and the wirter Vishal that to me Buddhism is adequate religion to meet the

requirements of my country. Please do not encash while putting my name in

the website, emails and elsewhere which is miscommunicating my philosophy

and my beliefs.

 

A copy of your interview with Ted Beckett on 23 October at Colorado Springs

is with me. I completely deny the contents of that interview and disown the

information therein. Please do not circulate such untruthful matters.

 

Please do not encash personal relationship.

 

SIncerely Yours,

 

 

 

Ram Raj

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Find a job, post your resume on Careers.

 

 

[Guest guest]

This is a typical misrepresentation of Indain social reality by

western media.

 

The following BBC headline screams:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1638000/16381

83.stm

 

 

Hindus convert to escape caste

 

 

But in India Buddhists don't leave caste because if they do so, they

place themselves outside reservation in education and jobs. To get

reservation quotas, you must declare your caste and get suitable

certificates from civilian authorities to the same effect. Everybody

does it Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and Christians.

 

By converting out of Hinduism "Dalits" don't cease to be "dalits",

but merely become Christian dalits and Buddhist dalits and so on.

Dalit status is not thrust upon them, but it is actively demanded so

as to be in the reservation game. By conversion,they neither get rid

of "dalit" status not get the benefit of their ancestral faiths.

 

If someone thinks, this conversion process is to get rid of caste,

they are badly mistaken

[Guest guest]

Dr. Karp,

 

I have heard Mr. Vishal Mangalawadi in live, and his speech and his

books make me even more convinced that conversions to Christianity in

India have to be discouraged.

 

At a University seminar on 'Secularism' in the United States, he said

the vilest things about the character of Hindus, said the worst

things about Hinduism and about India in general. Clearly, conversion

to another faith from Hinduism can lead some Indians to hate their

own country and their own countrymen. He blatantly repeats lies (eg -

'The Nuns of Surguja were raped by Hindus') at public meetings.

 

If he is to be believed, there is no convincing proof of the

existence of mankind before 4500 BCE! Because the Bible says so.

 

Vishal Agarwal

 

 

 

INDOLOGY, VikramSen Kaushik <vikramsenkaushik> wrote:

> Sunday, October 28, 2001

> Vishal Mangalwadi

> Re: Buddha & Christ, Ram Raj & Pudaite, Nov 4 & Baptisms

>