SV: Challenge to Indologists

[Guest guest]

In message #2256, Sri. Manish Modi wrote:

>Jainism completely rejects the authoirity of the Vedas. It is built

>around the edifices of Ahinsa, Karmavaad, Anekant and the rejection

>of conventional Ishwarwad. Jainism does not believe in god's role

>as creator, preserver and destroyer. At it's core, Jainism is a

>religion that promotes asceticism and rejects ritualism. Jain

>meditation is designed to attain Moksh that is freedom from the

>cycle of rebirth. Jainism believes that each soul must be the

>author of its own fate and must find its own liberation.

 

>Jainism and Buddhism are both past of the Shraman tradition of Indian

>thought, and both of them are not only different from each other,

>but also both of them are distinct from Hinduism

 

Also, in messge #2271, Sri. Modi wrote:

NC>> "Please show me a quote from Mahaaveera's teachings that the

NC>>teachings of the Vedas are false."

 

>Please refer to the Acharang Sutra, the the Uttaradhyan Sutra and the

>Dashavaikalik Sutra. You might to do well to read Acharya

>Samantbhadra's "Aptamimansa". I think reading the book will clear

>your opinion in this matter.

 

Modi wrote:

> The Jains reject the Vedas completely.

 

>>"To this end certain factors like opposition to the brahmin

>>or non-acceptance of the Vedas in the shramanic traditions

>>are exaggerated."

 

>They are not exaggerated. Jainism has never given any credence

> to the Vedas and brahmins.

 

In #2286, Modi wrote:

>11. You are right when you say that Indian culture predates

>the Vedas. One of the streams of that culture is Jainism.

 

>11. Jainism is one of the world's oldest living religions.

 

>12. There is no preistly class in Jainism. Any Jain is allowed to

>perfom Puja in a Jain Mandir. Casteism is championed by the Hindus.

>Not by the Jains.

 

Thanks for explaining the principles of Jainism. BTW, one of the

greatest Teachers in Tamil, and in all of India, is Tiruvalluvar.

His pithy teachings, including the rejection of caste prejudices,

is well known. Several of Valluvar's principles are said to

come from Jainism:

http://www.services.cnrs.fr/wws/arc/ctamil/2002-04/msg00070.html

 

Ancient Jainas thought it a downfall,

[begin Quote]

According to Jain theory, all castes once professed Jainism, but

certain groups fell into false ways and became Brahmins who formulated

a cult sanctioning the slaughter of animals (49) - a myth that

reverses the usual assumptions of the Hindu myth and describes a

fall *into* Brahmin-hood rather than *from* it.

(49)Beni Prasad, Theories of Government in Ancient India, Allahabad,

1927.

[End Quote]

(Quoted from Wendy Doniger, The origins of evil in Hindu mythology,

Univ. Chicago press, 1980, page 21).

 

Applying Indological theory, Jains are important in bringing

back the old concepts from pre-Aryan-incursion times India.

Eg., karma, reincarnation and yoga ideas that are unique to India.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

N. Ganesan wrote:

>Ancient Jainas thought it a downfall,

>[begin Quote]

>According to Jain theory, all castes once professed Jainism, but

>certain groups fell into false ways and became Brahmins who

formulated

>a cult sanctioning the slaughter of animals (49) - a myth that

>reverses the usual assumptions of the Hindu myth and describes a

>fall *into* Brahmin-hood rather than *from* it.

>(49)Beni Prasad, Theories of Government in Ancient India, Allahabad,

>1927.

>[End Quote]

>(Quoted from Wendy Doniger, The origins of evil in Hindu mythology,

>Univ. Chicago press, 1980, page 21).

>Applying Indological theory, Jains are important in bringing

>back the old concepts from pre-Aryan-incursion times India.

>Eg., karma, reincarnation and yoga ideas that are unique to India.

 

"V.C.Vijayaraghavan" <vij@b...> wrote:

>Did you ask the Jains whether they were bringing back concepts "from

>pre-Aryan-incursion times"?

 

 

There is a basic misunderstanding. Indology is mainly concerned with

study of ancient texts, monuments, inscriptions in Sanskrit, Tamil

etc.,

and not with conducting street interviews.

 

Given the propoganda about Aryans in the Indus culture in India,

it will appear as tho' Aryans and their languages ruled the roost

then. Yet, acc. to Indologists, the Indus era was free of Aryan

dominance.

 

The word, zramaNa, itself is not IE or IIr, and is possibly Dravidian.

At least, there are scores of native Tamil words connected with

this.

 

Even the Nationalistic poet, Sri. SubrahmaNya Bharati replaced

the word, "Arya desham" into "AnROrkaL desham" in his famous

song - 'ODi viLaiyADu pAppA'. He then realised that Tamils

refer themselves as Tamils and Dravidians. It's the SrivaishNava

tradition to call Tamil books of prayer as Dravida Vedam.

 

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

>

> "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" <vij@b...> wrote:

> >Did you ask the Jains whether they were bringing back

concepts "from

> >pre-Aryan-incursion times"?

>

>

> There is a basic misunderstanding. Indology is mainly concerned with

> study of ancient texts, monuments, inscriptions in Sanskrit, Tamil

> etc.,

> and not with conducting street interviews.

 

I did not mean street interviews. I meant was it a conscious Jain

project as you make it to be? Is it not an indological projection of

it's narrative on the history of Jainism in contradistinction to a

Jain narrative as given by Mahavira and subsequent thirthankaras?

 

Is it not assuming an air of cultural superiority on the subject of

study as if you know more than the subject himself.?

 

If you really wanted to prove your assertion , then you have

 

a. show there was an 'aryan incursion'

 

b.show what were the beliefs and practices of 'pre-incursion'

population

 

c. show that the such beliefs and practices did not undergo a change

over a period of time , say 1000 years or so.

 

d. show what steps Mahavira undertook to approach the holders of

these beliefs and how he learnt these things from them

 

e. show how subsequent jain thinkers did likewise and made it into

part of Jain ideology

 

 

Unless you can show all these five steps, mere assertions repeated

again and again won't lead us anywhere.

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

>

> "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" <vij@b...> wrote:

> >Did you ask the Jains whether they were bringing back

concepts "from

> >pre-Aryan-incursion times"?

>

>

> There is a basic misunderstanding. Indology is mainly concerned with

> study of ancient texts, monuments, inscriptions in Sanskrit, Tamil

> etc.,

> and not with conducting street interviews.

 

 

 

BTW, you have not answered my query posed in message 2311 which is in

a similar vein.

 

> The karma theory, absent in the Rgveda, is a pre-Aryan substratum

> element that shows up in later day and modern Hinduism.

>

> Regards,

> N. Ganesan

 

 

How do you know it is "pre-Aryan substratum"? .

 

 

To make the above assertion, you have to

 

a. show at what date aryans "arrived"

b. show what were the beliefs of people before the "arrival" of aryans

c. show that karma theory is one of them

d. show that the karma theory did not change over a period of

hundreds of years among these 'pre-aryan substratum'

e. show in what ways aryans learnt karma theory from these people who

kept the karma theory in a pristine form over these centuries.

 

Unless you can make a coherant and verifyable narrative along these

lines, you are merely making an assertion

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

 

> Even the Nationalistic poet, Sri. SubrahmaNya Bharati replaced

> the word, "Arya desham" into "AnROrkaL desham" in his famous

> song - 'ODi viLaiyADu pAppA'. He then realised that Tamils

> refer themselves as Tamils and Dravidians.

 

He calls India 'cEtamillAta Hindustaanam' (faultless Hindustaanam) in

the same song. That sounds strange to my ear and certainly funny :-)

 

I think the 'AnROr tEccam' is a reference to Tamilnadu.

 

Regards,

 

Lakshmi Srinivas

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "lsrinivas" <lsrinivas> wrote:

> INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

>

> > Even the Nationalistic poet, Sri. SubrahmaNya Bharati replaced

> > the word, "Arya desham" into "AnROrkaL desham" in his famous

> > song - 'ODi viLaiyADu pAppA'. He then realised that Tamils

> > refer themselves as Tamils and Dravidians.

>

> He calls India 'cEtamillAta Hindustaanam' (faultless Hindustaanam)

in

> the same song. That sounds strange to my ear and certainly funny :-)

>

> I think the 'AnROr tEccam' is a reference to Tamilnadu.

 

Oops! I meant 'AnROr tEcam'. Sorry for the typo

 

Lakshmi Srinivas.

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "lsrinivas" <lsrinivas> wrote:

> INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

>

> > Even the Nationalistic poet, Sri. SubrahmaNya Bharati replaced

> > the word, "Arya desham" into "AnROrkaL desham" in his famous

> > song - 'ODi viLaiyADu pAppA'. He then realised that Tamils

> > refer themselves as Tamils and Dravidians.

>

> He calls India 'cEtamillAta Hindustaanam'

>(faultless Hindustaanam) in

> the same song. That sounds strange to my ear and certainly funny :-)

>

> I think the 'AnROr tEcam' is a reference to Tamilnadu.

>

 

Bharatiyar's prose has to be read to understand his thoughts.

 

The point is, in njAnabhAnu magazine he uses

"Ariya tEcam" (in 1915) and in 1917, he changes "Ariya tEcam"

into "An2ROr tEcam" (An2ROr < cAn2ROr).

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

prose has to be read to understand his thoughts.

>

> The point is, in njAnabhAnu magazine he uses

> "Ariya tEcam" (in 1915) and in 1917, he changes "Ariya tEcam"

> into "An2ROr tEcam" (An2ROr < cAn2ROr).

>

> Regards,

> N. Ganesan

 

 

What Subramania Bharati said or did not say or thought to have said

in the 20th century is irrelevant to the statements you made and the

subsequent discussions.