Guest guest Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 --- ymalaiya <ymalaiya wrote: > Take a caste such as the Kayasthas. They have a > distinguished > background. India's first president was a kayastha. > Vivekananda, > Aurobindo were kayasthas and Maharshi Mahesh Yogi is > one. Which > varna do they fit in? There have been several court > cases, articles > and even some books taking one or the other side. Exactly what varnas are ascribed to the kayasthas? What are the sides taken by the articles and books? What do the political,intellectual and cultural achievements of some kayasthas have to do with placing kayasthas to one varna or the other? Agreed that the varna semiosis is fuzzy,and a caste classification is more pronounced and accepted; but do not all castes fit into some varna or the other? There have been kayastha kings in Telengana, kayastha vaidyas in Bengal, and kayastha landlords,kayastha traders, kayastha this and kayastha that in history. I believe this fact might change the self-perception of kayasthas, but how does it change the varna status of kayasthas? Not that it is important or politically correct to discusss this topic. But for the sake of academic clemency, it is necessary to present the facts and sources. Kayasthas have traditionally been scribes (as distinguished from writers).They probably were responsible for much of early stone and copper inscriptions. A popular last name (or final part of names)of inscribers has been ghosha, a kayastha last name in Bengal. They probably, in early centuries of the common era, were accorded more respect than was due to other craftsmen. Their status might have been equivalent to that of the rathakaara of earlier [Vedic] times. They have been accountants. Medieval literature has multiple references to their being accountants. [Medieval Bengali poem kavikankana candii,and late sanskrit kshitiisharaajavamshaavalii] Do not the job-descriptions place kayastha as a group-entity in the [open-ended and fuzzy] category of a Vaishya varna? Early dictionaries in Modern Indian languages gloss kayastha,along with other descriptions, as 'varna-samkara'. This could place them in more than one varna. But does not a samkara varna automatically relegated to the [descriptive, not qualitative]lower varna? It did in the Mahabharata times, e.g. Vidura. Of couse varna has no existence, and caste is legally non-existent. But we are here concerned with the academic descripition of the popular perception of this categorial imperfection. And I beieve this can be discussed without being sensitive. Gandhi has been called a mahatma all over the world, but in common parlance, and even in published biographies, Indian writers never forget to mention his caste. Do we not remember of having have to read time and again that Nehru was a Kashmiri Brahmin, and Ambedkar was what he was before he was a Buddhist? Even today as we are intellectually disturbed by the presence and non-presence of varna and caste,numerous horoscopes of millions of Indian children are being written; and the writers of horoscopes seldom mention the caste of the parents to whom the child was offered by the gods as a boon, but carefully and pompously insert the varna name. I could also direct your attention to numerous dedications of Indological publications [in Sanskrit or modern languages where the 'dedicatee' has been described as a 'kshatriyakulatilaka' or 'vaishyakulodbhava'. I would risk being facetious and say 'varna is dead, long live varna.' Best. Jogesh Panda Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Jogesh Panda wrote: > > --- ymalaiya <ymalaiya wrote: > > Even today as we are > intellectually disturbed by the presence and > non-presence of varna and caste,numerous horoscopes of > millions of Indian children are being written; and the > writers of horoscopes seldom mention the caste of the > parents to whom the child was offered by the gods as a > boon, but carefully and pompously insert the varna > name. I could also direct your attention to numerous > dedications of Indological publications [in Sanskrit > or modern languages where the 'dedicatee' has been > described as a 'kshatriyakulatilaka' or > 'vaishyakulodbhava'. I would risk being facetious and > say 'varna is dead, long live varna.' I guess that varNa, which may originally have been conceived as a theoretical bulwark against the erosion of high-jaati privilege, continues after millennia to be the refuge of those who would circumvent an unfavorable jaati-identity by recourse to a radically simplified ideal class structure. P. Ernest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 > I guess that varNa, which may originally have been > conceived > as a theoretical bulwark against the erosion of high-jaati > privilege, Please check the dharma shaastras for the shaastric ideal of a brahmin - would a consider a life of voluntary poverty and hardship for the sake of spiritual purity, a life of previlege? [Rude personal comment removed by moderator] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, vpcnk wrote: > Please check the dharma shaastras for the shaastric ideal of a > brahmin Precicely. But I was interested in getting beyond the ideals. - would a consider a life of voluntary poverty and hardship > for the sake of spiritual purity, a life of previlege? It certainly had privileges attached, as the tone of your reply suggests. > [Rude personal comment removed by moderator] This is priceless, by the way. P. Ernest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 > Precicely. But I was interested in getting beyond the ideals. But still even to this day there are traditional brahmins who live by such ideals. In the ages past, even 50 years back, the number of such people was much greater. > It certainly had privileges attached, Like? > > [Rude personal comment removed by moderator] In the original post I think I merely said people who discuss such subjects should first read the relevant texts - maybe my tone was rude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Quoting vpcnk <vpcnk: > > > > > > > > Precicely. But I was interested in getting beyond the ideals. > > > > But still even to this day there are traditional brahmins who live by > > such ideals. Nevertheless, their class identity is not contingent on their personal idealistic pursuits, I don't think. P. Ernest Phillip Ernest 231 Beverley St. Toronto, Ontario m5t 1z4 CANADA NEW PHONE: 416 979 1603 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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