Guest guest Posted October 7, 2002 Report Share Posted October 7, 2002 I agree completely with professor Ernest. We must distinguish between two levels of reality, what's more recognised by the *Indianity* itself: paramaarthikasatya *means* varnas,that is - from the Vedas up to nowadays - the difference between different levels of knowledge (and possibilities of knowledge) of Truth, and of Salvation; vyaavahaarikasatya *means* jaati, that is the real condition determined by the birth of each one. On the socio- political perspective, we must fight against the difference determined by birth (jaati), what has not reason, at least on the ontological-logical level; Indian people does it, without any double. I'm not Bin Laden, nor Berlusconi, nor Arafat, nor Bush. I'm not Italian, I'm only Daniela. A part of humankind. Like Mahaatma Gandhi said - I beg Your pardon - I'm Hindu, I'm Muslim, I'm Hebrew, I'm Christian. I can choose the *title*, but the sanaatanadharma is the same for all. With different names. At the level of the possibility/will of saving ourselves, or of knowing Truth, we must admit that a difference among individual exists. Or no difference at all: before the Absolute, we are the same - Gods or worms, but the same. The French Revolution has cut many heads: it was a right action, on the level of empirical truth (vyaavahaarikasatya), because it has killed a lot of - so to say - fascist people - , but a wrong action on the level of the Absolute Truth (paramaarthikasatya), because it not has marked a separation between birth, and the reality of individuals. Please, let stop with this gaps between West and East. Daniela ****************************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Department Assistant - University of Perugia (Italy) home address: piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.338 3198904 ghezziem http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/data/indiv/area/idsas/ROSSELLA,Daniela.htm ****************************************************************** >> >> > Even today as we are >> intellectually disturbed by the presence and >> non-presence of varna and caste,numerous horoscopes of >> millions of Indian children are being written; and the >> writers of horoscopes seldom mention the caste of the >> parents to whom the child was offered by the gods as a >> boon, but carefully and pompously insert the varna >> name. I could also direct your attention to numerous >> dedications of Indological publications [in Sanskrit >> or modern languages where the 'dedicatee' has been >> described as a 'kshatriyakulatilaka' or >> 'vaishyakulodbhava'. I would risk being facetious and >> say 'varna is dead, long live varna.' > > I guess that varNa, which may originally have been > conceived > as a theoretical bulwark against the erosion of high-jaati privilege, > continues after millennia to be > the refuge of those who would circumvent an unfavorable jaati-identity by > recourse to a radically simplified ideal class structure. > > P. Ernest > > > > > > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 At 09:44 PM 10/7/02 +0200, Daniela Rossella wrote: >I agree completely with professor Ernest. > >We must distinguish between two levels of reality, what's more recognised by >the *Indianity* itself: paramaarthikasatya *means* varnas,that is - from >the Vedas up to nowadays - the difference between different levels of >knowledge (and possibilities of knowledge) of Truth, and of Salvation; >vyaavahaarikasatya *means* jaati, that is the real condition determined by >the birth of each one. > >On the socio- political perspective, we must fight against the difference >determined by birth (jaati), what has not reason, at least on the >ontological-logical level; Indian people does it, without any double. > >I'm not Bin Laden, nor Berlusconi, nor Arafat, nor Bush. I'm not Italian, >I'm only Daniela. A part of humankind. > >Like Mahaatma Gandhi said - I beg Your pardon - I'm Hindu, I'm Muslim, I'm >Hebrew, I'm Christian. I can choose the *title*, but the sanaatanadharma is >the same for all. With different names. > >At the level of the possibility/will of saving ourselves, or of knowing >Truth, we must admit that a difference among individual exists. Or no >difference at all: before the Absolute, we are the same - Gods or worms, but >the same. > >The French Revolution has cut many heads: it was a right action, on the >level of empirical truth (vyaavahaarikasatya), because it has killed a lot >of - so to say - fascist people - , but a wrong action on the level of the >Absolute Truth (paramaarthikasatya), because it not has marked a separation >between birth, and the reality of individuals. > A few relevant (hopefully) words based on Krishna's teachings in Bhagavad-gita. The varna is not determined by birth (janma), but qualities (guna) and activities (karma). [bg. 4.13] One in any of the four varnas can attain perfection by worshiping the Supreme Lord [bg. 9.32-33, 18.45-46]. Best wishes, Chris Beetle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 > The varna is not determined by birth (janma), but qualities (guna) and > activities (karma). [bg. 4.13] > > One in any of the four varnas can attain perfection by worshiping the > Supreme Lord [bg. 9.32-33, 18.45-46]. In contrast to few such references we can find hundreds of references which justify birth based varna in orthodox texts. In the Mahaabhaaratha we find Yudhishtra in his dialogue with the Yaksha asserting that a braahmana is one who proves himself by his good conduct. But in the same epic we find hundreds of statements which justify birth based varna classification. There is a reason why we find non-birth based varna classification asserted in orthodox texts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Quoting Chris Beetle <bvi: > > > A few relevant (hopefully) words based on Krishna's teachings in > Bhagavad-gita. > > > > The varna is not determined by birth (janma), but qualities (guna) and > > activities (karma). [bg. 4.13] > > > > One in any of the four varnas can attain perfection by worshiping the > > Supreme Lord [bg. 9.32-33, 18.45-46]. This looks like a good example of varNa used in its most idealized sense. But elsewhere in the giitaa kRSNa also speaks of the yogin's indifference to the distinctions of jaati. P. Ernest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 phillip --====-- if a shudra can attain moxa, where is the issue about caste in the first place? i wonder if there are records of yogis who were 'born' avarnas, and if there are, how were they treated by society once they became yogis? secondly, did every yogi not have a varnadharma to fulfill? the story of the tapasvi and the she-crane comes to mind. the tapasvi was a proud braahman'a who was directed by a butcher to his putradharma. so, finally, who were the spiritual elite? the yogis, or the braahman'as? --==lekhanasima==-- onkar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Onkar Joshi wrote: > if a shudra can attain moxa, where is the issue about caste in the > first place? I think the story of raama's slaying of shambuuka in the uttarakaaNDa illustrates the tensions between the social and the spiritual conceptions of varNa. > so, finally, who were the spiritual elite? the yogis, or the braahman'as? I guess that from an early time there was probably a feeling that the social and ethical functions that a braahmaNa was ideally supposed to fulfill according to varNa theory were not consistently being fulfilled by them, as the real state of society moved further and further away from the complexion that varNa theory attempted to freeze and idealize; hence the passages in the upaniSads and the Pali canon in which those social and ethical functions were completely detached from jaati, birth, and 'the true braahmaNa' declared to be anyone who fulfilled those functions. P. Ernest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 INDOLOGY, phillip.ernest@u... wrote: > > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Onkar Joshi wrote: > > > if a shudra can attain moxa, where is the issue about caste in the > > first place? > > I think the story of raama's slaying of shambuuka in the uttarakaaNDa > illustrates the tensions between the social and the spiritual conceptions > of varNa. > profs. Witzel and Deshpande conversed about the varNa theory and exploitation: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/wa?A2=ind9605&L=indology&P=R576 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.