Guest guest Posted November 19, 2002 Report Share Posted November 19, 2002 http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov19/idesi.asp First Indians came from Africa DH News Service NEW DELHI, Nov 18 FACT FILE *The exciting journey has been chronicled by a team of genetic investigators * All modern humans descended form one man in Africa 60,000 years ago * The new findings suggest people had entered India from the western side The first men to set foot on India were a group of Africans who took an arduous journey from the dark continent along the coasts of central Asia and Middle East to arrive in India around 50,000 years ago. Those men and women are the forefathers of Dravidians – considered as the oldest Indians. [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2002 Report Share Posted November 19, 2002 INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote: > > http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov19/idesi.asp > > First Indians came from Africa > DH News Service NEW DELHI, Nov 18 > > FACT FILE > > *The exciting journey has been chronicled by a team of genetic > investigators > * All modern humans descended form one man in Africa 60,000 years ago > * The new findings suggest people had entered India from the western > side > > > The first men to set foot on India were a group of Africans who took > an arduous journey from the dark continent along the coasts of central > Asia and Middle East to arrive in India around 50,000 years > ago. Those men and women are the forefathers of Dravidians – > considered as the oldest Indians. > [...] Do this mean the Dravidian language evolved in India? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2002 Report Share Posted November 19, 2002 Re: First Indians came from Africa (Deccan Herald article) tamil-ulagam, "naa_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote: > tamil-ulagam, "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" <vij@b...> wrote: > > > Southern Dravidian languages like Tamil, Kannada are believed > > to have come to south India by about 1000 BC at the maximum. > > There is no evidence of Dravidian substratum in the oldest > > layers of Rg Veda because of which Prof. Witzel opines Dravidan > > language family came to > > India just after Vedic. > > Unfortunately, prof. Witzel does not read any Dravidian language > or texts. No Dravidologist writes that Dravidian has invaded > India after the Vedic Aryans. > > Prof. Asko Parpola and I. Mahadevan, who know Vedic well, > write that Dravidian was the high Harappan language. Ganesan There are lot of plain untruths in your statement. First: In Linguist's dictionary, there is no language called 'Dravidian'. Dravidian refers to a language group Second: If the 19th Century language group was called 'Dravidian', the predecossor language group cannot be called dravidian. Languages change and so does the language groups. Over a period of 3500 years, no language group in the world has been stable. That being the case , why should 'dravidian' language group of 19th C. be the same as the language group of 2000 BC. Three: Linguists have not even contructed a proto-dravidian language. Dravidian studies have not progressed beyond DED. There is no literature before Sangam period to talk of anything about 'dravidian language' with any confidence. Four: It is not true to say "Prof. Asko Parpola and I. Mahadevan write that Dravidian was the high Harappan language". FYKI, this is what IM said a few years ago in an interview: http://www.harappa.com/script/mahadevantext.html#2a On decipherment of IVC script: "I may say that I realize that I have not deciphered the Indus script and if I may so, it is extremely unlikely that I may do so in the remaining years of my life" On whether IVC language dravidian: "I still very strongly believe that the Indus civilization language was in all probability an early form of Dravidian. Having said this, let me also sound a word of caution. This is still a theory. We haven't had final proof, we haven't been able to crack the code " Again "But linguistically, if the Indus script is deciphered, we may hopefully find that the proto-Dravidian roots of the Harappan language and South Indian Dravidian languages are similar. This is a hypothesis" On whether the fish symbol found in IVC is same as 'meen" in dravidian languages: "but I still think that the fish-meen-star homophony is a good one, although I readily admit that it has not been proved" All the time IM maintains it is only a hypothesis which has no proof after decades of hard work i.e. no one knows a single Harappan word. > In any case, I forwarded The Deccan Hearld's article > what world's leading Geneticists think about the antiquity > and origins of Dravidians in India. There is a wordspinning. DH article only tells us what the reporter of the article think or supposed to have understood.. It does not directly quote the Geneticists. Many times Indian journalists do bad reporting . This is one such. Example, it says: "to arrive in India around 50,000 years ago. Those men and women are the forefathers of Dravidians – considered as the oldest Indians" Dravidian language family is not attested before 2500 Before Present. 50,000 years back, there was no language or language families. Nobody knows what those men who came to India 50,000 back spoke. The upper limit of south Dravidian in south India is 1000 BC. So you can assert that those geneticists would not be speaking of the same people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Have seen and given ref.s to Parpola and I. Mahadevan writing that most likely, Harappans spoke a form of ancient dravidian language in the list from which my post was lifted out of context. In that forum, the Deccan Herald article URL, mentioning Dravidian heritage. Tamil scholars like it. The similarities in consonant assimilation occuring in Tamil as well as Prakrit point to it too. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4239 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4492 Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 INDOLOGY, "Paul Kekai Manansala" <a.manansala@a...> wrote: > > The first men to set foot on India were a group of Africans who > took > > an arduous journey from the dark continent along the coasts of > central > > Asia and Middle East to arrive in India around 50,000 years > > ago. Those men and women are the forefathers of Dravidians – > > considered as the oldest Indians. > > [...] > > > Do this mean the Dravidian language evolved in India? > > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala I would think so. A parallel will be Sanskrit even tho' it came from Europe or Iran, it evolved by acquring features from India over time. Even modern Tamil, a member of south Dravidian, and old sangam Tamil is different in ceratin aspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Since humanity came out of Africa, what is unique about this situation? Wouldn't there be African DNA in everyone? Don't Munda speakers predate Dravidian speakers? Sincerely, Sujata INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote: > INDOLOGY, "Paul Kekai Manansala" <a.manansala@a...> wrote: > > > > The first men to set foot on India were a group of Africans who > > took > > > an arduous journey from the dark continent along the coasts of > > central > > > Asia and Middle East to arrive in India around 50,000 years > > > ago. Those men and women are the forefathers of Dravidians – > > > considered as the oldest Indians. > > > [...] > > > > > > Do this mean the Dravidian language evolved in India? > > > > Regards, > > Paul Kekai Manansala > > I would think so. A parallel will be Sanskrit even tho' > it came from Europe or Iran, it evolved by acquring > features from India over time. Even modern Tamil, a member > of south Dravidian, and old sangam Tamil is different > in ceratin aspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 INDOLOGY, "shevaroys" <shevaroys> wrote: > Since humanity came out of Africa, what is unique about this >situation? Wouldn't there be African DNA in everyone? Don't Munda >speakers predate Dravidian speakers? > > Sincerely, > Sujata Two published papers, in pdf format, at the end of the Contents page http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/nov2001/contents.htm Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 INDOLOGY, "shevaroys" <shevaroys> wrote: > Since humanity came out of Africa, what is unique about this situation? > Wouldn't there be African DNA in everyone? Don't Munda speakers predate > Dravidian speakers? > > Sincerely, > Sujata > Fundamental genomic unity of ethnic India http://www.iisc.ernet.in/~currsci/nov102000/1182.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote: > INDOLOGY, "shevaroys" <shevaroys> wrote: > > Since humanity came out of Africa, what is unique about this > >situation? Wouldn't there be African DNA in everyone? Don't Munda > >speakers predate Dravidian speakers? > > > > Sincerely, > > Sujata > > Two published papers, in pdf format, at the end of the Contents > page > http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/nov2001/contents.htm > The one by Partha Majumdar claims that Austro-Asiatic speakers were the earliest inhabitants based on having the greatest genetic diversity. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 INDOLOGY, "shevaroys" <shevaroys> wrote: > Since humanity came out of Africa, what is unique about this situation? > Wouldn't there be African DNA in everyone? Don't Munda speakers predate > Dravidian speakers? > > Sincerely, > Sujata V. N. Misra, Prehistoric human colonization of India, http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/nov2001/491.pdf Figure 5. lists Language families and principal languages of India, with most of the Austro-Asiatic tribals confined to North East India, like Assam, Bihar, Orissa. Only one Austric tribal folks have moved west into Madhya Pradesh, and that tribal dialect is Korku. Are there any papers dealing with the Korku migration from Northeast. When? Few centuries ago? The papers mention that, with 98% Austro-Asiatics living in South East Asia, they would have entered North East India, most concentration is found there even today. ----- See also Madhav Gadgil et al., Peopling of India, http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html Look at Figure 21: A possible scenario of migrations of Dravidian speaking people into India. The figure says 8-10 thousand years ago. Have asked the CTamilists' opinion specially pertaining to Dravidian: http://www.services.cnrs.fr/wws/arc/ctamil/2002-11/msg00034.html Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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