Guest guest Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 In Dr. Kalyanaraman's IC list, prof. Madhav Deshpande asked <<<Could someone translate these Tamil comments about Sanskrit for the benefit of those of us who unfortunately do not read Tamil?>>> And, there was a reply >Yes. I will provide a word by word translation and also a sentence >translation. Contempt and hatred for Sanskrit and Brahmins in >particular and anything North Indian in general, has been a salient >feature of the "Dravidianist" movement of the past 100 years or so. >The worst manifestation of this was when school children were, at one >stage, forced by the "Dravidianist" governments of Tamilnadu to sing, >daily, abusing Sanskrit. Since prof. Madhav Deshpande has read me for many years, let assure him that I did not do any contempt for Sanskrit language. In fact, that original message does not have anything to do with Sanskrit, I feel. Also, my recollection is that Tamil Nadu government did not make children daily abuse sanskrit. Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 In IC list, prof. Madhav Deshpande asked <<<Could someone translate these Tamil comments about Sanskrit for the benefit of those of us who unfortunately do not read Tamil?>>> And, there was an anonymous reply, >Yes. I will provide a word by word translation and also a sentence >translation. Contempt and hatred for Sanskrit and Brahmins in >particular and anything North Indian in general, has been a salient >feature of the "Dravidianist" movement of the past 100 years or so. >The worst manifestation of this was when school children were, at one >stage, forced by the "Dravidianist" governments of Tamilnadu to sing, >daily, abusing Sanskrit. Looked at school text books (which came from India to teach children Tamil at our Houston Meenakshi temple). The above claim is simply not true. The official Tamil Nadu state song is: nIrArum kaTaluTutta nilamaTantaik kezilozukum cIrArum vatan2amen2at tikazparatak kaNTamitil tekkaNamum atiRciRanta tirAviTanal tirunATum takkaciRu piRainutalum tarittanaRun tilakamumE attilaka vAcan2aipOl an2aittulakum in2pamuRa etticaiyum pukazmaNakka viruntaperun tamizaNaGkE! tamizaNaGkE! .. un2 cIriLamait tiRamviyantu ceyalmaRantu .. vAzttutumE! vAzttutumE! vAzttutumE! ------------ In this State govt. poem, which kids in govt. schools once a while recite, we see Mother Tamil, something like Mother India. And, I don't see any word mentioning Sanskrit at all. Then, how can the little children abuse it? Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan <naga_ganesan@h...>" <naga_ganesan@h...> wrote: > > The official Tamil Nadu state song is: > > nIrArum kaTaluTutta nilamaTantaik kezilozukum > cIrArum vatan2amen2at tikazparatak kaNTamitil > tekkaNamum atiRciRanta tirAviTanal tirunATum > takkaciRu piRainutalum tarittanaRun tilakamumE > attilaka vAcan2aipOl an2aittulakum in2pamuRa > etticaiyum pukazmaNakka viruntaperun tamizaNaGkE! tamizaNaGkE! > > . un2 cIriLamait tiRamviyantu ceyalmaRantu > . vAzttutumE! vAzttutumE! vAzttutumE! > > ------------ > > In this State govt. poem, which kids in govt. schools once a while > recite, we see Mother Tamil, something like Mother India. > And, I don't see any word mentioning Sanskrit at all. > Then, how can the little children abuse it? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan Dear Thiru Ganesan, The Anonymous poster, in another forum had discussed the same issue. ""Neeraarum kadaludutha" had that abusive line till the 70s. Later on a PIL was filed and the court ordered that line to be purged. That line occurs before the verse "un seerilamai thiram viyandhu seyal marandhu vaazhthuthume". The exact purged line was "Ariyam pol sidhaindhu azhindhu ozhiyaa". Here look at the line. It glorifies Tamil by stating Like Sanskrit, you have not been mutilated, wasted or banished". I dont know the whole song, therefore I dont have an opinion either way. But just letting you know about this arguement. Sugrutha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 NG> In this State govt. poem, which kids in govt. schools once a while > recite, we see Mother Tamil, something like Mother India. > And, I don't see any word mentioning Sanskrit at all. > Then, how can the little children abuse it? > INDOLOGY, "sugrutha <sugrutha>" <sugrutha> wrote: >Dear Thiru Ganesan, >The Anonymous poster, in another forum had discussed the same issue. Dear Tirumati. Sugrutha, Vanakkam. I have not participated in Forumhub discussions on Tamil literature. Some people mentioned in the IC list some Tiru. Karthik Iyer. Not knowing whether they are Tamil scholars & wonder if they write in tamil letters (eg., 100s e-lists with TSCII 1.7 fonts exist)? Personally, I have not much to do with Dravidian parties in power. My family and relatives have been in Congress from 1930s. One of my relatives was Swami Chidbhavanandar who founded many colleges in TN (Ramakrishna Tapovanam). Upon return from Belur mutt, he started a Ganesha temple in his first in Ooty. That was opened by Gandhiji for worship by Harijans first in TN (in 1920s, I think). Few years later, Gandhiji launched the famous Harijan entry movement to Sri Meenakshi temple, Madurai. >""Neeraarum kadaludutha" had that abusive line till the 70s. Later on >a PIL was filed and the court ordered that line to be purged. That >line occurs before the verse "un seerilamai thiram viyandhu seyal >marandhu vaazhthuthume". The exact purged line was "Ariyam pol >sidhaindhu azhindhu ozhiyaa". >Here look at the line. It glorifies Tamil by stating Like Sanskrit, >you have not been mutilated, wasted or banished". >I dont know the whole song, therefore I dont have an opinion either >way. But just letting you know about this arguement. >Sugrutha What is a PIL? i don't know. And, checked with Sumathi Ramswamy's printed book copy. Of course, in these things, she is the well known scholar. Ramaswamy's Passions of the tongue is available on line: http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft5199n9v7/ Also, read her later paper: Sumathi Ramaswamy, The Somatics of Nationalism in Tamil India, Gender & History, vol. 10, no. 1, 1998 The exact lines given here, makes me think that TN govt. prayer does not abuse Sanskrit. Sumathi has written elaborately how TN govt. orders explain very well this is not against central govt. TN govt. orders say the prayers begin with tamizttaay vaazttu and insist in ending govt. meetings with janaganamana. In my school days, the tamizttAy vAzttu song in govt. schools did not have any reference to Sanskrit. Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 INDOLOGY, "sugrutha <sugrutha>" <sugrutha> wrote: > That > line occurs before the verse "un seerilamai thiram viyandhu seyal > marandhu vaazhthuthume". The exact purged line was "Ariyam pol > sidhaindhu azhindhu ozhiyaa". > > Here look at the line. It glorifies Tamil by stating Like Sanskrit, > you have not been mutilated, wasted or banished". > > I dont know the whole song, therefore I dont have an opinion either > way. But just letting you know about this arguement. do not know the whole either, I bet 99.9999999% of Tamils do not know it either. In the forumhub, the author is mentioned as miinATcicuntram piLLai. I think it isn't so. The line quoted from the obscure poem may not be correct either. Dravidologists like Zvelebil have written about some millennia old rivalry between tamil and sanskrit. TolkAppiyam commentaries do mention old poems like "aariyam nan2Ru, tamiz tiitu". etc., (Aryam is good, Tamil is bad). May be in that obscure poem the poet, said to be Minatcisundaram in Forumhub, mentions that sanskrit is not a spoken language among Indians. Minatcicuntaram - what did he write about aariyam? we have to check? Let me give an example: Prof. S. Pollock has written an article, "Death of Sabskrit". This may shock some people. How can Sanskrit be dead? I also think Sanskrit has a big future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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