Some questions on Saiva Siddhanta

[Guest guest]

I was wondering if someone could answer some questions on the Saiva

Siddhanta tradition, or lead me to suitable references.

 

How different is "ordinary Saivism" and Saiva Siddhanta in

Tamilnadu?

 

Do followers of Saiva Siddhanta form a exlusive community like the

Lingayats in Karnataka? How big is it? What is the connection

between Saiva Siddhanta and the Kanchi Sankaracharya? Are followers

of Saiva Siddhanta vegetarian?

 

I get the impression that Saiva Siddhanta much more influential

among the overseas Tamil community, specially in Sri Lanka. Is it

the same Saiva Siddhanta?

 

I think that Saiva Siddhanta accepts Vedas, but I have read

somewhere that some of them do not actually use vedas or vedanta.

 

What is difference between Saiva Siddhanta and the Lingayats?

Lingayats are sometimes classified as being outside of Hinduism,

since they explicitly reject vedas. What is the connection with

Kasmiri Saivism?

 

Yashwant

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "ymalaiya <ymalaiya>"

<ymalaiya> wrote:

>I was wondering if someone could answer some questions on the Saiva

>Siddhanta tradition, or lead me to suitable references.

 

Will give it a try.

 

>How different is "ordinary Saivism" and Saiva Siddhanta in

>Tamilnadu?

 

There is no difference. The majority of Tamils are Saivaites.

Philosophers from 13th century codified Saiva siddhanta (SS)

in Tamil works. The canon of the Saiva Siddhanta treatises

are 14 in number which includes Sivanjaanabodham, in short

40 lines. While the masses are content with tOttiram (Cf. stotra)

works such as tEvAram, 12 tirumuRai (the parallel is Alvar poems

in Sri Vaishnavism), Saiva Siddhantam is the philosophy codified in

cAttiram (Cf. zAstra). Dr. K. Loganathan (Penang),

Mr. P. N. Kumar (Java), ... can give many references. It is rare

to find philosophical works sustained for centuries in languages

other than Sanskrit in India. Saiva siddhanta philosophy is

an exception to this, and all sections of society contributed

the authors of Saiva Siddhanta works. Penetrating studies

of the enormous Saiva material in Tamil has not been yet

done in any non-Tamil language yet. Some beginnings have been

made, that's all. A Christian missionary view point of

Saiva Siddhnatam is:

a) Dhavamony, Mariasusai. Love of God according to

´Saiva Siddh¯anta, a study in the mysticism and

theology of ´Saivism. Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1971. 402 p.

For a study of aagamas, ...

i) Soni, Jayandra.

Philosophical anthropology in ´Saiva siddh¯anta

: with special reference to ´Siv¯agrayogin

Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1989.

(Prof. Soni is a jaina by birth. His publications:

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~soni/publications.html

ii) J. Soni, "The Arguments for Mala according to Sivagrayogin"

in Saiva Siddhanta Perumanram: Muttu-Vila Malar

(80th Anniversary Volume). Ed. P.Thirugnanasambandhan.

Madras: Saiva Siddhanta Perumanram, 1986 pp. 30-36.

iii) "Saiva Siddhanta With Reference to Sivagrayogin's

Commentaries on the Sivajnanabodham" in: Werner Diem

und Abdoldjavad Falaturi (eds.): XXIV. Deutscher Orientalistentag,

Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag, 1990, pp. 450-458.

Note that Meykandar's Sivajnanabodham received Sanskrit commentary

from Sivagrayogi.

b) Schomerus, H. W. Saiva Siddh¯anta : an Indian school of

mystical thought : presented as a system and documented

from the original Tamil sources /translated from the German

by Mary Law. Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 2000.

(Original German edition in 1912).

c) Sivaraman, K. (J. Soni's teacher)

Saivism in philosophical perspective; a study of the

formative concepts, problems, and methods of ´Saiva Siddh¯anta

Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass [1973] 687 p.

(Books by V. A. Devasenapathi (grandson of the editor of Tiruppukaz

of Murukan), Maraimalai Atikal, T.M.P. Mahadevan, ...)

 

The Tamil impact in Saiva aagamas, Sivachariyars, Printing

the Saiva aagamas originally in Grantha script, has been

studied. Madame H. Brunner, ... worked from Pondichery,

and published in French. In english,

Richard H. Davis, Ritual in an oscillating universe :

worshiping ´Siva in medieval India / Richard H. Davis.

Princeton University Press, c1991.

 

Incidentally, there is intense relation and rivalry

between Jainism and Saivism in the south, both in

TN and Karnataka. MeykaNDaar's father is Achcuta KaLappaaLar

of PeNNaakaTam village. KaLappaalar is related with

KaLabhras (originally from Jaina faith & Karnataka).

For borrowal of Jaina rituals in Saiva aagamas, see Richard Davis'

paper in John E. Cort, Open boundaries, SUNY, 1998.

 

>Do followers of Saiva Siddhanta form a exlusive community like the

>Lingayats in Karnataka? How big is it? What is the connection

>between Saiva Siddhanta and the Kanchi Sankaracharya? Are followers

>of Saiva Siddhanta vegetarian?

 

Since most castes in TN, Ceylon, Malaysia are Saivaite,

no exclusive community. The top most castes among Tamils

are Velalas of the Kaveri and Tamraparni deltas. They are

vegetarian, and are called Saiva Vellalas. The word, saivam,

does double duty in tamil - means both vegetarian and saivaite.

Hart and others have written elaborately about the birth of

vegetarianism among tamils and in India.

purity:pollution binarism is likely to have given birth to it.

Hart has written about brahmin vegetarianism in the south picked

up from these communities.

 

Tamil literature, epigraphy, saiva siddhanta works, ... do not

refer to Kanchi Sankaracharya. Seems to be a largely 20th century

print magazine phenomenon:

INDOLOGY/message/2631

INDOLOGY/message/2351

INDOLOGY/message/2670

 

>I get the impression that Saiva Siddhanta much more influential

>among the overseas Tamil community, specially in Sri Lanka. Is it

>the same Saiva Siddhanta?

 

Yes, the same Saiva Siddhantam.

Saivism is large among tamils, both in Lanka and TN. Their

philosophy is Saiva Siddhantam. You may want to read a book.

Richard F. Young, Es. Jepanecan The Bible trembled: the

Hindu-Christian controversies of nineteenth-century Ceylon,

Vienna: Sammlung De Nobili, 1995

Arumuka Navalar, a father figure who started the Saivaite Hindu

renaissance, in his own words says he uses the tactics of

early bhakti saints like Sambandhar, Appar to finish Jainism,

to drive out Christianity. A. Navalar wrote the first prose

works telling in simple language the Saiva puranams, ritual, etc.,

Modern tamil prose was largely created by Arumuka Navalar.

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9901&L=indology&P=R23638

 

>I think that Saiva Siddhanta accepts Vedas, but I have read

>somewhere that some of them do not actually use vedas or vedanta.

>What is difference between Saiva Siddhanta and the Lingayats?

>Lingayats are sometimes classified as being outside of Hinduism,

>since they explicitly reject vedas.

 

Early viirasaivism in the Deccan opposed brahminical models,

where as Tamil Saivism did not do it. Reading Periya Puranam,

(tamil), and Basavapuranamu (telugu) shows the difference.

A. K. Ramanujan, Speaking of Siva, is a great book on Viirasaivism.

INDOLOGY/message/2963

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends

 

While thanking Naga Ganesan for bringing to your attention my studies on

Saiva Siddhanta let me mention some websites where these works are

available in English

 

Civannabotham at:

 

http://ulagan.tripod.com/bocontent-e.html

 

Irupa Irupatu at:

 

http://ulagan.tripod.com/irupa-con.htm

 

English translation with commentray of some selected Tevaram Hymns are

available at:

 

http://arutkural.tripod.com/tmcampus/tmtopics.html

 

For studies of the presence of Dravidan gods, including Siva, in Sumerian

literature please see:

 

http://arutkural.tripod.com/sumstudies/hin-sum-dra.html

 

Such studies are still continued and are posted in akandabaratam( English

only) and Meykandar ( English and Tamil) .

 

Loga

[Guest guest]

> There is no difference. The majority of Tamils are Saivaites.

 

Does the "majority" refer to all Tamils or Tamil upper castes?

 

In my mind, it can refer only to the latter - for a good chunk of the

Tamil population, especially those down the caste ladder, are atbest

devoted to village deities like Kaathavaraayan, Amman (Kali/Durga)

etc. These people cannot be really classified as Saivites.

 

Saiva Siddhaanta is a specific philosophy and way of life - whether

the preservers of the philosophy, who at best constitute a small

minority of the entire Tamil population, would accept non-initiated

lay people, even if they are devotees of Shiva, to be identified with

them is itself questionable.

 

>Saiva siddhanta philosophy is

> an exception to this, and all sections of society contributed

> the authors of Saiva Siddhanta works.

 

Not really - if you look at technical Saiva Siddhaanta philosophy,

apart from Sivajnaanabodham which was composed by Meikanda Thevar

(Thevars are the traditional Tamil warrior caste - the maravars), the

rest of the works for most part was composed by Sivaachaarya brahmins.

[Guest guest]

>Do followers of Saiva Siddhanta form a exlusive community like the

>Lingayats in Karnataka? How big is it? What is the connection

>between Saiva Siddhanta and the Kanchi Sankaracharya? Are followers

>of Saiva Siddhanta vegetarian?

 

Historically Veerasaivism's fundamental motive was anti-brahminism -

it is a social reform movement founded by Baasava who was himself a

brahmin. So Veerasaivites are a society/caste unto themselves - for

eg the Vokkaligaas in Karnataka.

 

Saiva Siddhaanta is fundamentally a school of philosophy inspired by

the teachings of the Saivite Naayanmaar saints of the Tamil land.

Saiva Siddhaantis are thus fundamentally a spiritually driven group

who are committed to a specific philosophy and a way of life with

moksha/nirvaana as their main goal - they are drawn from multiple

castes.

 

On the question of Saiva Siddhaanta's relation with Kashmir Saivism -

the latter is chronologically earlier in terms of technical

philosophy. And quite like KS, SS too went through a period teaching

dualism but later philosophers, especially the Sanskritist

systematicians, probably influenced by KS and Advaita, promoted a non-

dual version.

 

Also to be noted is that historically the Sivaachaarya brahmins who

are the traditional preservers of the Saiva Siddhaanta philosophy are

considered to be Kashmiri brahmins who were brought down to the Tamil

land by Rajendra Chola.

 

Incidentally in Thiruvenkaadu, a Saivite holy spot and also one of

the nava graha centers in TN, the resident aachaarya is Meykanda

Thevar, whose idol is right at the entrance. There's also a grand but

unidentified samaadhi monument in the temple which probably contains

the remains of the founder of the Saiva Siddhaanta philosophy.

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "vpcnk <vpcnk@H...>" <vpcnk@H...>

wrote:

 

> In my mind, it can refer only to the latter - for a good chunk

>of the Tamil population, especially those down the caste ladder,

>are atbest devoted to village deities like Kaathavaraayan,

>Amman (Kali/Durga) etc. These people cannot be really classified

> as Saivites.

 

Majority of the castes down in the caste ladder also

sport Saivaite symbols such as tirunIRu. Yes, Saiva Vellalas

are a minority, but many castes are saivaite in the sense

they do not wear Srivaishnava naamam. But many Telugu castes

in TN are Vaishnaaite.

 

>

> Saiva Siddhaanta is a specific philosophy and way of life - whether

> the preservers of the philosophy, who at best constitute a small

> minority of the entire Tamil population, would accept non-initiated

> lay people, even if they are devotees of Shiva, to be identified

> with them is itself questionable.

 

Saiva vellalas accept any Tamil as Saivaite. But becoming

an adheenakarttar of Saiva Siddhanta mutt is a different matter.

It will/should eventually happen that priesthood and mutt headship

can go to anyone qualified, irrespective of caste. At least in

the nondalit castes, many mutts are saivaite & mutt heads

have come from all kinds of castes.

 

>

> >Saiva siddhanta philosophy is

> > an exception to this, and all sections of society contributed

> > the authors of Saiva Siddhanta works.

>

> Not really - if you look at technical Saiva Siddhaanta philosophy,

> apart from Sivajnaanabodham which was composed by Meikanda Thevar

> (Thevars are the traditional Tamil warrior caste - the maravars),

 

Traditionally, MeykaNDadevar is taken as a vellala.

 

>the rest of the works for most part was composed by

> Sivaachaarya brahmins.

 

Yes, Sivacharyas do perform puja in all Shiva temples,

and their contribution in Saiva Siddhanta works is large.

Wonder what are the Saiva Siddhanta works in tamil by

Smartas.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "vpcnk <vpcnk@H...>" <vpcnk@H...>

wrote:

> Historically Veerasaivism's fundamental motive was anti-brahminism -

> it is a social reform movement founded by Baasava who was himself a

> brahmin. So Veerasaivites are a society/caste unto themselves - for

> eg the Vokkaligaas in Karnataka.

 

Many scholars (eg., A. K. Ramanujan, V. Narayanrao) write that

Basava's caste is not known. It's possible Basava belonged

to temple musician caste. Basavi means devadaasi in Kannada,

and Basava could be from the musician-gaNikaa caste.

 

It's not correct that Vokkaligas are Viirasaivaites in Karnataka.

In fact, they dominate the esrtwhile Mysore region, but Veerasaivaites

are from north Karnataka.

 

>

> Also to be noted is that historically the Sivaachaarya brahmins who

> are the traditional preservers of the Saiva Siddhaanta philosophy

> are considered to be Kashmiri brahmins who were brought down to

> the Tamil land by Rajendra Chola.

>

 

There are many Sivacharyas before Rajendra Chola I. In fact

the most famous of them, Sundaramurti Nayanar is centuries earlier,

and belongs to Pallava period. Certain sections of Saivaagamas

and ritual was developed by Sivacaharyas in TN in 5-7th centuries

(Cf. N. Lidova).

 

Rajaraja and Rajendra prefered Kaalaamukha priests, and

it is said by scholars like Zvelebil that there were riots

between the old priests, and the new coming ones. There

are many inscriptions detailing "Guhai iDi kalakam".

I've a paper by Dr. S. Raju, Dept. of epigraphy, Tamil university,

on records of Guhai-iDi-kalakam. May be Dr. Loganathan,

Dr. T. Ganesan, ... can tell us more.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

> Majority of the castes down in the caste ladder also

> sport Saivaite symbols such as tirunIRu. Yes, Saiva Vellalas

> are a minority, but many castes are saivaite in the sense

> they do not wear Srivaishnava naamam. But many Telugu castes

> in TN are Vaishnaaite.

 

I think we have to start making a distinction between Saivite, Saiva

Siddhaanti and a non-Vaishnava Hindu. The so-called Saivite culture

is practiced by all these groups - including the smaarthaas.

 

> Traditionally, MeykaNDadevar is taken as a vellala.

 

That's news to me. Wouldn't the tag "mei kandar" sufficed then -

what's the meaning of Thevar? Not a deva like Indra, surely?

 

> Wonder what are the Saiva Siddhanta works in tamil by

> Smartas.

 

Smaarthaas are Advaitins - traditionally they do not write works on

Saiva Siddhaanta - though it would not be unusual for an interested

smaartha to engage in such an enterprise. But Appaya Dikshidar has

written on Saivite Philosophy - but it is technically not Saiva

Siddhaanta, but termed "Siva Advaita".

 

Tamil Smaarthaas have penned quite a few Advaita works in Tamil - in

modern times most notably Somadeva Sharma a few decades back who

wrote popular commentaries on dharma and moksha in Tamil. Even Kanchi

Paramaachaaryaar Chandrashekara Saraswati's primary work is in Tamil -

Deivathin Kural.

[Guest guest]

> Many scholars (eg., A. K. Ramanujan, V. Narayanrao) write that

> Basava's caste is not known.

 

But historically Baasava is supposed to have been a brahmin - and

nobody has questioned this seriously.

 

> There are many Sivacharyas before Rajendra Chola I. In fact

> the most famous of them, Sundaramurti Nayanar is centuries earlier,

> and belongs to Pallava period. Certain sections of Saivaagamas

> and ritual was developed by Sivacaharyas in TN in 5-7th centuries

> (Cf. N. Lidova).

 

Nobody is clear about pre-Shankarite brahmanical culture in the South.

Maybe there were Saivite brahmins - quite like Jnaana Sambandhar and

the later Sivaachaaryaas integrated with them.

 

But is Sundaramurthy Naayanaar referred to as a Sivaachaarya in

traditional texts? I doubt it.

 

I would think that the Sivaachaarya tag is post-Shankarite to

distinguish them from the smaarthaas.

[Guest guest]

>> Traditionally, MeykaNDadevar is taken as a vellala.

 

>That's news to me. Wouldn't the tag "mei kandar" sufficed then -

>what's the meaning of Thevar? Not a deva like Indra, surely?

 

In many tamil inscripions, kings and chiefs are refered as

Devar, but it need not refer to the caste of KaLLar or MaRavar.

Vellalas are addressed as Devar in inscriptions, thEvar just means

lord, not necessarily to the caste.

 

<<<

Smaarthaas are Advaitins - traditionally they do not write works on

Saiva Siddhaanta - though it would not be unusual for an interested

smaartha to engage in such an enterprise. But Appaya Dikshidar has

written on Saivite Philosophy - but it is technically not Saiva

Siddhaanta, but termed "Siva Advaita".

>>>

 

Appaya Dikshitar's family came Andhra to Adayapalam, N. Arcot.

Same also with Muthuswamy Dikshitar (Carnatic music giant),

originally at Virinchipuram, N. Arcot district.

They are different from Cidambaram Dikshitars. Like I said,

have not seen contributions to saiva siddhanta works in tamil

by Smarthas, may be none.

 

>> There are many Sivacharyas before Rajendra Chola I. In fact

>> the most famous of them, Sundaramurti Nayanar is centuries earlier,

>> and belongs to Pallava period. Certain sections of Saivaagamas

>> and ritual was developed by Sivacaharyas in TN in 5-7th centuries

>> (Cf. N. Lidova).

 

<<<

Nobody is clear about pre-Shankarite brahmanical culture in the South.

Maybe there were Saivite brahmins - quite like Jnaana Sambandhar and

the later Sivaachaaryaas integrated with them.

 

But is Sundaramurthy Naayanaar referred to as a Sivaachaarya in

traditional texts? I doubt it.

 

I would think that the Sivaachaarya tag is post-Shankarite to

distinguish them from the smaarthaas.

>>>

 

Sankara has nothing to do with Saivaite temple culture

or Sivacharyas. All the original sources take Sundarar as

belonging to the temple priest caste. Saiva siddhanta

is mentioned in Kanchi Kailasanatha temple inscription in 7th

century for the first time.

 

There is a tirumantiram poem prohibiting brahmins

doing pUjaa to Sivan in temples. Saivaite commentators

mention (eg., KirupanandavAriyar, Maraimalai Atikal, ...)

that here paarppaan refers to smaarthas because they

don't know aagamas.

 

pEr koNTa pArppAn2 pirAn2 tan2n2ai arccittAl

pOr koNTa nATTukkup pollA viyAtiyAm

pAr koNTa nATTukkup pajncamum Am en2RE

cIr koNTa nanti terintu uraittAn2E. - tirumantiram 519

 

For the induction of dance and music in Saivaite worship

in Tamil Nadu in 5-7th centuries, N. Lidova, Drama and ritual

of early Hinduism, 1994:Delhi.

 

NG>> In the oral epics and songs

NG>> everywhere these ammans are connected with Shiva.

 

>That's only in the classical literary form and does not negate the

>autonomous status of Amman worship in TN. In most small Amman

>temples Shiva has no presence.

 

I'm not talking of "classical literary form" in my original mail.

Many Kali, Durgai, ... amman temples and folk epics

do connect them to Sivan. Mother goddess worship may be

more ancient than Sivan's. Vaishnava castes sporting naamam

are few among tamils.

 

>> Many scholars (eg., A. K. Ramanujan, V. Narayanrao) write that

>> Basava's caste is not known.

[Guest guest]

Y. Malaiya wrote:

>I was curious about the Sivacharya brahmins. In what way are they

>different from vedic brahmins (if they are).

 

For knowing about Adisaiva Sivacharyar priests of TN sivan temples,

these studies will be of use. Helene Brunner discusses the origins

of the Adisaiva brahmin lineages and writes that they may

represent an indigenous non-brahmin priestly group who successfully

claimed brahmin status. Her article, in French, is "Les categories

sociales vediques dans le Sivaisme du sud,"

Journal asiatique 252 (1964): 452-72. Richard Davis discussed

the Adisaivas of Tamilnad in an article, Aghorasiva's Background,

Journal of Oriental Research (Dr. S. S. Janaki Felicitation Volume)

56-62 (1992):367-7. Also, C. J. Fuller, Servants of the Goddess

(for Madurai Meenaksi priests), and Ginni Ishimatsu's thesis

on Adisaiva sivacharyars.

 

Nandakumar wrote:

> Historically Veerasaivism's fundamental motive was

> anti-brahminism

 

Aagamic saivaites opposed brahminism in Karnataka. However,

in India, it's good to claim everything comes from Veda.

Uttara kAmikAgama announces "siddhAnto vedasAras syAt".

Helene Brunner, 'Saiva siddhAnta, Essence du Veda, Indologica

Taurinensia, 1980-1, p. 51-66.

 

Even buddhism in the development of mahaayaana must have included

many brahmins, and Viirashaivism gets increasingly sanskritised

compared to its early writings.

 

Hope Drs. V. Filliozat, T. Ganesan, D. Goodall, ... will publish

and clarify the developments of Saivism in Maharashtra, Karnataka,TN

from 5th century and Saiva siddhanta philosophy.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

>they may represent an indigenous non-brahmin priestly group who

>successfully claimed brahmin status.

 

I wonder what the scope of the "may" is!!!

 

> Aagamic saivaites opposed brahminism in Karnataka. However,

> in India, it's good to claim everything comes from Veda.

 

But it is to be noted that opposing Sanskrit along with brahmins is a

modern phenomenon - primarily connected to the Dravidian political

movement in TN. But historically it did not happen that way -

historically all scholars in every part of India patronized Sanskrit -

including the bhakti saints of ancient TN.

[Guest guest]

> In many tamil inscripions, kings and chiefs are refered as

> Devar, but it need not refer to the caste of KaLLar or MaRavar.

> Vellalas are addressed as Devar in inscriptions, thEvar just means

> lord, not necessarily to the caste.

 

But how can you be sure that the inscription did not address the

maravars? For eg in the Brhadeeshvarar temple in Thanjaavur, it is

noted that the chief minister of Rajaraja was a Thevar (though I do

not remember his full name). How can it be proved whether he was a

Vellaalar or a Maravar?

 

And what's the origin of the modern designation "Thevar" which

normally refers to the maravars?

 

> Sankara has nothing to do with Saivaite temple culture

> or Sivacharyas.

 

Such absolutes are best refrained from - especially given Shankara's

role in the shaping of "modern Hinduism".

 

> All the original sources take Sundarar as belonging to the temple

>priest caste.

 

Can you provide a quote where it specifies so? Not merely a

braahmana, but a "temple priest braahmana".

 

> There is a tirumantiram poem prohibiting brahmins

> doing pUjaa to Sivan in temples. Saivaite commentators

> mention (eg., KirupanandavAriyar, Maraimalai Atikal, ...)

> that here paarppaan refers to smaarthas because they

> don't know aagamas.

 

That's natural. Smaarthaas adhering to the rules of the smriti will

normally not opt for the the job of the temple priest. Even if

smaarthaas are involved in setting up a temple, the job of the temple

priest is normally taken up by the gurukkal caste (Sivaachaaryaars)

or Sri Vaishnavas or Madhvas.

 

> I'm not talking of "classical literary form" in my original mail.

> Many Kali, Durgai, ... amman temples and folk epics

> do connect them to Sivan.

 

But one popular tale considers Adi Paraashakti to be more powerful

than the triumvirate of Brahma/Shiva/Vishnu.

 

Amman worshippers would definitely not accept a secondary position

for their goddess to Shiva.

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "vpcnk <vpcnk@H...>" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> > Sankara has nothing to do with Saivaite temple culture

> > or Sivacharyas.

>

> Such absolutes are best refrained from - especially given Shankara's

> role in the shaping of "modern Hinduism".

 

At least in the old inscriptions, or literature, Sankara's role

is non-existent in shaping TN temple culture. Sivaachaaryas'

are mentioned abundantly.

 

>

> > All the original sources take Sundarar as belonging to the temple

> >priest caste.

>

> Can you provide a quote where it specifies so? Not merely a

> braahmana, but a "temple priest braahmana".

 

pl. read Nambi AaNDar Nambi's TiruttoNDar TiruvandAdi (9th century) and

Periya PuraaNam where Sundaramurti is said to be a temple priest brahmin.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "vpcnk <vpcnk@H...>" <vpcnk@H...>

wrote:

> > In many tamil inscripions, kings and chiefs are refered as

> > Devar, but it need not refer to the caste of KaLLar or MaRavar.

> > Vellalas are addressed as Devar in inscriptions, thEvar just means

> > lord, not necessarily to the caste.

>

> But how can you be sure that the inscription did not address the

> maravars? For eg in the Brhadeeshvarar temple in Thanjaavur, it is

> noted that the chief minister of Rajaraja was a Thevar (though I do

> not remember his full name). How can it be proved whether he was a

> Vellaalar or a Maravar?

>

> And what's the origin of the modern designation "Thevar" which

> normally refers to the maravars?

 

Sorry for barging into this discussion. But my two cents worth of

information:

a. Sekkizhar's given name was "Arunmozhithevar" and he was called a

vellala by kudi.

b. Tamil society surnames have origins in titles and hence surnames

like pillai, mudaliar, thevar, udayar, Kavunder, etc., have always

been used by number of present day castes.

c. For example, Rajaraja is called in some meikeerthis as Udayar and

in some as Thevar.

d. The modern designation of "Thevar" is not only used by Maravars,

but also by Kallars, Aghamudaiyars, Maniyakarar,etc.,

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "Kalees <kskal_2000>"

<kskal_2000> wrote:

> a. Sekkizhar's given name was "Arunmozhithevar" and he was called a

> vellala by kudi.

 

Cekkizhar belonged to the landed gentry of ToNDaimaNDalam,

and for few centuries, they use the caste name, Mudaliyar.

They are called "ToNDaimaNDala vELALar". They have always

distinguished themselves in government service. Besides

Cekkizar, the medieval chief minister of the Chola king,

M. Bhaktavatsalam was TN CM few years ago. The transition

from Chola-Pandya peasant state into Vijayanagar Nayak military

state happened after Muslim icursions into the south.

The chief minister who assembled the 72 paaLaiyams

(many became british zamins later) was DaLavaay Ariyanaatha

Mudaliyar, himself a ToNDaimaNDala Mudaliyar.

All over TN, old govt. officials come from ToNDaimaNDalam/KONDakaTTi

mudlaiyars. In the Kongu country, when toNDaimaNDala mudaliyars

give permission to develop large tracts of lands, about 20%

tax on the revenue was levied and must be given to them

(few centuries ago).

 

The voluminous, and very important commentary on PeriyapuraaNam

was written in 7 volumes by CivakkavimaNi C. K. Subramaniya Mudaliyar

of Coimbatore. In later years he became Sambandha SaraNaalaya

Thambiraan (from memory), and spent his last days at Perur

PaTTiisvaraswami temple. I don't know if his son, Ci. Su. KaNNaayiram

(a retd. sub-collector) is alive. SivakavimaNi CKS was a

ToNDaimaNDalamudaliyar as well.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "Kalees <kskal_2000>"

<kskal_2000> wrote:

> a. Sekkizhar's given name was "Arunmozhithevar" and he was called

>a vellala by kudi.

>

 

In 1970s, I think it was Steve A. Barnett who did anthropological

studies on KoNDaikaTTi/ToNDaimaNDalam vellalas. Have seen few papers

long ago.

 

The problem with anthropologists studying Indian castes and people

is many don't have working knowledge of that regional language,

texts, inscriptions and so on.

[Guest guest]

Raajaraaja Chola according to the novelist UG Krishnamurthy aka

Kalki, was known as Arulmozhi Varman. Does the "Varman" indicate a

kshatriya recognition?

 

Likewise with the Pallava kings like Mahendra Varman - though these

kings were considered of the Bhaaradvaaja gotra.

 

Please no blanket claims that Tamil kings were never accorded

kshatriya status etc - some textual information/references please.

[Guest guest]

> d. The modern designation of "Thevar" is not only used by Maravars,

> but also by Kallars, Aghamudaiyars, Maniyakarar,etc.,

 

But the last three claim a maravar lineage, do they not? And I don't

think there's any particular maravar community by itself in TN. Or is

there a particular community which has proven historical connections

with the historical maravar?

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "vpcnk <vpcnk@H...>" <vpcnk@H...>

wrote:

> Raajaraaja Chola according to the novelist UG Krishnamurthy aka

> Kalki, was known as Arulmozhi Varman. Does the "Varman" indicate a

> kshatriya recognition?

 

Nanda,

 

Kalki was also called ra. ki. His real name was R Krishnamurthy.

 

UG Krishnamurthy is quite a different personality however. He is a

holy man whose claim to fame is that he has been guru over the years

to many promising Bollywood starlets and assorted Miss India's incl.

the sex bomb of yesteryear Parveen Babi. I have not studied his

system of philosophy but I do know that full and free maithuna is at

its core.

 

This sectarian confusion was however welcome since it livened up, at

least for me, this rather dry topic :-)

 

Regards,

 

Lakshmi Srinivas

[Guest guest]

> Kalki was also called ra. ki. His real name was R Krishnamurthy.

 

Oops terribly sorry :-) Got a mail from somebody about UGK and thus

used his name instead of RK.