[Y-Indology] Romanized names of the Chinese Pilgrims

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Stephen Hodge,

 

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

In India, students know at the school levels the name of the two

pilgrims generally as "fA hiyAn" and "hwen sAMg" (the Roman transcription is

phonetic here).

 

>Look up each character of that pilgrim-scholar's name in any pinyin

>dictionary and you will find both "xuan" and "zang"

 

Actually I had consulted only the Romanization Table from a book entitled

"Elementary Chinese, Part I", Beijing, Sep.1971. This Table does not include

the syllable "xuan". But "A Chinese-English Dictionary", Beijing, 1986

(55+976 pp), which uses the simplified Chinese characters and pinyin

Romanization system, does include "xuan".

 

>but the interpretation you give for the "z" in "zang" -- your "chuang" --

>is completely wrong: it does not exist in devanagari script but is like

>English "dz" as in "adze". This is not, of course, to say that there are

>no"yuan" and "chuang" syllables in pinyin -- it's just that they are not

>the pronunciations of the characters used for "xuanzang" and also the

>"ch" sound is nothing like your suggestion -- it is in fact a retroflex

>sound.

 

I did not give the approximate pronunciation of the pinyin "z", but the

pinyin "ch".

 

I do not have with me any proper reference at present to look up the

name of the two pilgrims in the Chinese Characters. I have consulted the

above-mentioned dictionary and find:

[Note: 1=high tone, 2=rising tone, 3=rising and falling tone,

4=falling tone]

 

(1) Fa-xian

 

The syllable "fa" is written in 11 different ways and none of them

is assigned to any Chinese surname.

 

The syllable "xian" is written in 42 different ways. But the only

character which is assigned to a surname is the one with the 3rd tone and

having 8 strokes in it.

 

(2) Xuan-zang

 

The syllable "xuan" is written in 21 different ways. But the only

character which is assigned to a surname is the one with the 1st tone and

having 9 strokes in it. It has also the literal meaning "declare; proclaim;

announce".

 

The syllable "zang" is written in 7 different ways. But the only

character which is assigned to a surname is the one with the 1st tone and

having 14 strokes in it. It has also the literal meaning "good; right".

 

Could you indicate how the Chinese character for the syllable "fa"

in "Fa-xian" is written and confirm the other three Chinese characters

("xian", "xuan","zang").

 

Best regards.

 

Narayan Prasad

 

-

"Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge

<INDOLOGY>

Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:11 AM

[Y-Indology] Re: Romanized names of the Chinese Pilgrims

 

 

> Narayan Prasad wrote:

>

> > As per the Romanization system adopted by the Chinese, the correct

> > orthography for the pilgrims mentioned above are as follows:

> >

> > (1) Fa Xian

>

> >

> > The part "Hsien" in "Fa-Hsien" is not used by the Chinese.

> There are two current systems for romanizing Chinese -- the official

pinyin

> and the old Wades-Giles system. Pinyin is preferable and widely used by

> scholars nowadays but one still finds the WG system, mainly in popular

> books. The "xian" above is pinyin, the "hsien" is Wade-Giles -- included

> because some still use that. There are also complex and changing rules

for

> pinyin about combining multisyllabic words but there is a clear tendency

to

> combine binomes = Faxian etc.

>

>

> > (2) Yuan Chuang

> > Similarly "Xuan" does not find place in the Table of the Romanization

> system used by

> > the Chinese. The "u" in "Yuan" is pronounced like u_umlaut of German, or

> > like the "u" of French. The "Ch" of "Chuang" is not pronounced like "ch"

> as

> > in "chair" in English, but something like the second varNa of the

ca-varga

> > in the devanAgarii.

> This is completely mistaken ! Look up each character of that

> pilgrim-scholar's name in any pinyin dictionary and you will find both

> "xuan" and "zang" -- your archaic "Yuan Chuang" is actually based on a

> defunct French system of romanization. Your comment about the

pronunciation

> of the "u" in "xuan" is correct -- it is not indicated in the orthography

> but it is a rule that all x + u syllables are thus pronounced but the

> interpretation you give for the "z" in "zang" -- your "chuang" -- is

> completely wrong: it does not exist in devanagari script but is like

English

> "dz" as in "adze". This is not, of course, to say that there are no

"yuan"

> and "chuang" syllables in pinyin -- it's just that they are not the

> pronunciations of the characters used for "xuanzang" and also the "ch"

sound

> is nothing like your suggestion -- it is in fact a retroflex sound.

>

> Best wioshes,

> Stephen Hodge

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Narayan,

 

As requested, here are the meanings of the characters making up the names of

the great Chinese pilgrims who visited India:

 

1) Faxian: fa = law, Dharma; xian = appear, manifest

2) Xuanzang: xuan = dark, mysterious; zang = large, thick, owerful (this

character is rare and not found in smaller dics)

and for good measure

3) Yijing: yi = meaning, justice, righteousness etc; jing = pure

 

> In India, students know at the school levels the name of the two

> pilgrims generally as "fA hiyAn" and "hwen sAMg" (the Roman transcription

is

> phonetic here).

Based no doubt on the old early C19th transcriptions used before Wade-Giles.

If writing in devanagari or similar I would suggest the following are

closer:

1) fa-"syen

2) "suen-saa"n -- the "dz" sound is not represented in basic devanagari

etc

3) i-ji"n

 

> But the only character which is assigned to a surname ...

The names of Chinese monks, including these pilgrims, are their Dharma-names

and not surnames -- many of them are, not surprisingly, based on or inspired

by Indian Buddhist monastic names.

 

Hope this clarifies the situation for you and encourages others to start

using the now standard pinyin transcriptions (or at least Wade-Giles) for

these names. To me, what one often sees in books of Indian origin

mentioning these Chinese monks creates the same impression as if a

Sinologist mentioning classical Indian names were to use a jumble of the

non-standard C18th century transcriptions of Sanskrit -- it's just not very

scholarly or professional. It's really not that difficult.

 

Best wishes,

Stephen Hodge

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Stephen Hodge,

 

Thank you very much for your kind reply.

 

In this message I am going to say only about the Chinese Pilgrim's

name which you have transcribed in pinyin as "Xuan-zang". I have succeded in

tracing the original Chinese characters for this name in the following book

at p. xi:

 

Thomas Watters(1904):"On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India : 629-645 AD", Royal

Asiatic Society, London.

 

The first part of the name is written in two ways in the Chinese characters

itself, the pinyin transcription for which is "xuan" for the first one and

"yuan" (same as the one used for the Chinese currency) for the second one. I

quote from this book, p.6, para2:

 

****************************************************************************

******************

In modern literature the character for Yuan is commonly used in writing the

pilgrim's name, and this is said to be due to the character for xuan

entering into the personal name of the Emperor Kanghsi. But we find Yuan in

the pilgrim's name before the reign of Kanghsi and we find Xuan in it during

that reign and since.

****************************************************************************

******************

So far as the second part of the name (which you transcribe as "zang") is

transcribed in pinyin as "zhuang" with the 3rd tone and has the literal

meaning: "big and thick; stout; robust" (as per "A Chinese-English

Dictionary", Beijing, 1986). I do not find any such Chinese character under

the pinyin transcription "zang" in this dictionary.

 

Best regards.

 

Narayan Prasad

 

-

"Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge

<INDOLOGY>

Wednesday, February 12, 2003 7:13 AM

Re: [Y-Indology] Re: Romanized names of the Chinese Pilgrims

 

 

> Dear Narayan,

>

> As requested, here are the meanings of the characters making up the names

of

> the great Chinese pilgrims who visited India:

>

> 1) Faxian: fa = law, Dharma; xian = appear, manifest

> 2) Xuanzang: xuan = dark, mysterious; zang = large, thick, owerful

(this

> character is rare and not found in smaller dics)

> and for good measure

> 3) Yijing: yi = meaning, justice, righteousness etc; jing = pure

>

> > In India, students know at the school levels the name of the two

> > pilgrims generally as "fA hiyAn" and "hwen sAMg" (the Roman

transcription

> is

> > phonetic here).

> Based no doubt on the old early C19th transcriptions used before

Wade-Giles.

> If writing in devanagari or similar I would suggest the following are

> closer:

> 1) fa-"syen

> 2) "suen-saa"n -- the "dz" sound is not represented in basic devanagari

> etc

> 3) i-ji"n

>

> > But the only character which is assigned to a surname ...

> The names of Chinese monks, including these pilgrims, are their

Dharma-names

> and not surnames -- many of them are, not surprisingly, based on or

inspired

> by Indian Buddhist monastic names.

>

> Hope this clarifies the situation for you and encourages others to start

> using the now standard pinyin transcriptions (or at least Wade-Giles) for

> these names. To me, what one often sees in books of Indian origin

> mentioning these Chinese monks creates the same impression as if a

> Sinologist mentioning classical Indian names were to use a jumble of the

> non-standard C18th century transcriptions of Sanskrit -- it's just not

very

> scholarly or professional. It's really not that difficult.

>

> Best wishes,

> Stephen Hodge

>

>

>

> indology

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

 

 

 

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