[Y-Indology] Varna-sankara

[Guest guest]

There was a basic difference between a bastard and a varna-sankara.A man

from a varna may marry a girl of a different varna.Their offspring would be

called " mixed"In fact it is very likely that transformation from varna

system to caste system came about to a large extent because of inter-varna

alliances. Look up a Sanskrit dictionary for words such as Kayastha, Modak ,

etc.

Rajesh Kochhar

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-

"Jan Brzezinski" <jankbrz

"Indology" <indology>; "RISA"

<risa-l

Tuesday, October 28, 2003 10:05 AM

[Y-Indology] Varna-sankara

 

 

| Dear scholars,

|

| A translator of the Gita into Dutch has been

| criticized for following a number of English

| translators who give "unwanted children" or "unwanted

| progeny" as the translation for varNa-saGkara in 1.41,

| 43. The critic states that the literal meaning of

| "mixing of castes" must be preserved.

|

| I think that a modern-day Gita could arguable use

| "unwanted children" as an equivalent for "mixing of

| castes." But perhaps not all unwanted children would

| theoretically fit into the category of varna-sankara,

| as the bastard son of an unmarried Brahmin couple

| might still be considered a Brahmin (or perhaps

| "brahma-bandhu"). Such offspring could lead to the

| same kinds of negative social effects delineated by

| Arjuna in his argument.

|

| So I suppose my question is, "Can a brahma-bandhu or

| other same caste bastards be considered varna-sankara?

| And would this make "unwanted children" a legitimate

| equivalent translation for "varna-sankara"?

|

| Thanks,

|

| Jan

|

|

|

| Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears

| http://launch./promos/britneyspears/

|

|

|

|

| indology

|

|

|

| Your use of is subject to

|

|

[Guest guest]

Op dinsdag 28 oktober 2003 00:05, schreef Jan Brzezinski:

 

> So I suppose my question is, "Can a brahma-bandhu or

> other same caste bastards be considered varna-sankara?

> And would this make "unwanted children" a legitimate

> equivalent translation for "varna-sankara"?

 

No, I don't think so: it is simply too loose a translation. Take the

example of (child-) widows who have physically intimate relations with

men, become pregnant and give birth to children: also if teh woman and

man are of the same caste, such a birth is considered a disgrace. This

is also a theme in modern literature (cf. my discussion of

_Bana;sankari_, a largely autobiographical Kannada novel by Niranjana,

in my study _The Calf Became An Orphan_, Pondichéry 1996, pp. 16-29).

 

Such illegitimate children within one and the same caste would (could)

not be cause for Arjuna's complaints: "utsaadyante jaatidharmaa.h

kuladharmaa;s ca ;saa;svataa.h" (1:43): for why can an illegitimate

child of two parents of one jaati not continue the jaatidharmaan?

 

RZ

 

Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos

Institut für Indologie

Universität München

Deutschland

[Guest guest]

"rkk" <rkk wrote:

 

| In fact it is very likely that transformation from varna system to

| caste system came about to a large extent because of inter-varna

| alliances.

 

I think this is an integral part of the varna ideology. That is, there

was never such a thing as a "pure" varna system. It was a theoretical

construct, for the purpose of establishing the ritual status of various

social groups. These groups have - and always have had - a historical

reality in jati, not varna. (Cf. Megasthenes, as quoted by Strabo, noting

seven endogamous classes of people.)

 

Inter-varna alliances were just a logical implication of the original

theory, and found some applicability when it came to giving new groups a

"place" in society - or to redefining the status of existing groups when

their changing social status "entitled" them to a new ritual status.