Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 <What exactly is it that is so objectionable about the book Courtright's)?> The symbols of religion may be approached with the head or the heart. Sometimes, the two approaches may harmonize, sometimes they may vehemently collide. For the head mode, scholarship and book-reading will do. For the heart-mode, one needs to be part of and imbued in a culture and/or religious tradition. Pascal's famous statement: Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait pas is very a propos here. If you are not a Hindu, nor have profound sensitivity for the Hindu tradition, you will not, indeed you cannot, find anything objectionable in referring to GaNeza's trunk as symbolizing a limp phallus. But one is, he/she will find it outrageous, offensive, and sacrilegious. This has nothing to do with religious fundamentalism. The sad thing about some scholars in Indology is their inability to appreciate or understand religious sensitivities. Those who are bereft of any religious sensitivity cannot understand this, just as those who are hard of hearing cannot appreciate glorious music. But if the deaf start writing treatises on symphonic music, it could lead to laughable situations. Unlike ancient Egyptian, Greek, or Roman religions, Hinduism is a living religion. This means that it is still meaningful to millions of people who take its tenets and symbols very seriously. To ignore this in the context of analyzing a religious tradition is equivalent to dissecting a live human being to study human anatomy. The practitioner can be charged with murder. V. V. Raman November 3, 2003 - Lars Martin Fosse INDOLOGY Monday, November 03, 2003 11:36 AM SV: [Y-Indology] Ganesh What exactly is it that is so objectionable about the book? I found the following description of it on Amazon: Synopsis The elephant-headed god Gane'sa is one of the most important and popular gods throughout India and Hindu Southeast Asia. His image is found in virtually every Hindu home. In this detailed and comprehensive study of Gane'sa, Paul Courtright looks at the mythology and the psychological meanings of this god, his rituals and festivals, and the part played by Gane'sa in contemporary Indian politics. The American Council of Learned Societies named "Gane'sa" the best first book in the history of religions published in 1985. I am just curious. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: MLBD [mlbd] > Sendt: 3. november 2003 14:28 > Til: INDOLOGY > Emne: [Y-Indology] Ganesh > > > Dear Dr. Rao, > > Thanks for your mail of 29th October 2003 regarding the > book: GANESHA by PAUL B.COURTRIGHT. > > Firstly, I am obliged that you have gone through the book > and made us aware about the extremely objectionable passages > including the cover of the book. In fact, the book was > published in 1985 by OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS and we never > heard any adverse comments, hence without getting that > reviewed we undertook the publication since it was originally > published by an internationally established publisher. We did > not care to go through the book thinking that this would be > academically well acceptable. > > We are extremely sorry that the content of the book has hurt > the sentiments of our beloved readers and the community at > large. We offer our SINCEREST APOLOGIES to all our readers. > > We have already withdrawn the circulation of the book from > the market and discontinued the sale.Further, we ensure that > no such lapse shall ever occur in future. This need not be > reiterated that MLBD has ever published any such offensive > matter knowingly in the entire history of their publication > for the last 100 years. Being one of the best known > publishers devoted to Hinduism and ancient Indian culture we > would never think to tarnish the image of any religion. This > has been an omission on our part and we are really apologetic > to the readers for its publication. > > May we request you to kindly circulate our letter of apology > to various religious organisations, centres, and the Hindu > community at large. A press release for the withdrawal of the > circulation of the book has already been issued. We are also > sending copies of this mail to various people around the > world and would also like to have the E-mail addresses of > other organisations, who we can inform for further > circulation of this mail. > > ONCE AGAIN WE REGRET FOR THE PUBLICATION OF THE AFORESAID > BOOK AND THANKS FOR INFORMING US OF SUCH OBJECTIONS. > > With kind regards, > > Sincerely, > Rajeev Jain > ------------ > Motilal Banarsidass Publishers > 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar > Delhi-110007, (India) > Tel: (011) 23974826, 23918335, 23911985, 23932747 > (011) 25795180, 25793423, 25797356 > Fax:(011) 23930689, 25797221 > Email: mlbd , mlbd > Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com > > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > CELEBRATING 100 YEARS OF PUBLISHING (1903-2003) > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 > titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! > http://us.click./x> lw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/x3XolB/> TM > > > ----------------------------- > -------~-> > > > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to > http://docs./info/> terms/ > > > Sponsor indology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 1. < Western intellectuals have left the Christian church in droves and here in Norway and elsewhere spend a lot of energy criticizing the Church (in whatever avatara).> And this is the advantage (?) the West has: Its secular thinkers have won the battle with traditionalists who have for the past couple of centuries been on the defensive. 2. <The church has lost most of its political power, and has become so pacifist that it can't use threats or violence to stop them anymore.> A gradual, but direct consequence of 18th century Enlightenment. 3. <It is therefore hardly strange that Western academics bring the same attitudes to other religions where the tradition is not so toothless as in the West.> And this is the point. If people within the tradition (Hindus) bring such attitudes in their study and interpretation of their own culture, they are likely to be tolerated more easily. We have had a number of such thinkers, such as Jawaharlal Nehru, M. N. Roy, Megh Nad Saha, P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar, Nirad C. Chowdhury, and the like. It is when outsiders speak insensitively that the people of a tradition resent. 4. Personally I think it is possible to analyze and understand a culture/religion which is not one's own with a degree of sensitivity and sympathy without necessarily accepting all its tenets and practices as perfect or beyond question. V. V. Raman November 3, 2003 - Lars Martin Fosse INDOLOGY Monday, November 03, 2003 2:25 PM SV: [Y-Indology] Ganesh Thank you! I am beginning to see the picture. Somehow, the comparison of Ganesa's trunk with a limp phallos does not strike me as self-evident. Elephant heads usually have trunks, so the idea would need some rather strong arguments to convince! Otherwise, you are of course right about the lack of sensitivity. Western intellectuals have left the Christian church in droves and here in Norway and elsewhere spend a lot of energy criticizing the Church (in whatever avatara). The church has lost most of its political power, and has become so pacifist that it can't use threats or violence to stop them anymore. It is therefore hardly strange that Western academics bring the same attitudes to other religions where the tradition is not so toothless as in the West. Best regards, and all the best, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: V.V. Raman [vvrsps] > Sendt: 3. november 2003 18:11 > Til: INDOLOGY > Emne: Re: [Y-Indology] Ganesh > > > <What exactly is it that is so objectionable about the book > Courtright's)?> > > The symbols of religion may be approached with the head or the heart. > Sometimes, the two approaches may harmonize, sometimes they > may vehemently collide. For the head mode, scholarship and > book-reading will do. For the heart-mode, one needs to be > part of and imbued in a culture and/or religious tradition. > Pascal's famous statement: Le coeur a ses raisons que la > raison ne connait pas is very a propos here. If you are not a > Hindu, nor have profound sensitivity for the Hindu tradition, > you will not, indeed you cannot, find anything objectionable > in referring to GaNeza's trunk as symbolizing a limp phallus. > But one is, he/she will find it outrageous, offensive, and > sacrilegious. This has nothing to do with religious > fundamentalism. The sad thing about some scholars in Indology > is their inability to appreciate or understand religious > sensitivities. Those who are bereft of any religious > sensitivity cannot understand this, just as those who are > hard of hearing cannot appreciate glorious music. But if the > deaf start writing treatises on symphonic music, it could > lead to laughable situations. Unlike ancient Egyptian, Greek, > or Roman religions, Hinduism is a living religion. This means > that it is still meaningful to millions of people who take > its tenets and symbols very seriously. To ignore this in the > context of analyzing a religious tradition is equivalent to > dissecting a live human being to study human anatomy. The > practitioner can be charged with murder. > > V. V. Raman > November 3, 2003 > > - > Lars Martin Fosse > INDOLOGY > Monday, November 03, 2003 11:36 AM > SV: [Y-Indology] Ganesh > > > What exactly is it that is so objectionable about the book? > > I found the following description of it on Amazon: > > Synopsis > The elephant-headed god Gane'sa is one of the most > important and popular > gods throughout India and Hindu Southeast Asia. His image > is found in > virtually every Hindu home. In this detailed and > comprehensive study of > Gane'sa, Paul Courtright looks at the mythology and the > psychological > meanings of this god, his rituals and festivals, and the > part played by > Gane'sa in contemporary Indian politics. The American > Council of Learned > Societies named "Gane'sa" the best first book in the history of > religions published in 1985. > > I am just curious. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > > Fra: MLBD [mlbd] > > Sendt: 3. november 2003 14:28 > > Til: INDOLOGY > > Emne: [Y-Indology] Ganesh > > > > > > Dear Dr. Rao, > > > > Thanks for your mail of 29th October 2003 regarding the > > book: GANESHA by PAUL B.COURTRIGHT. > > > > Firstly, I am obliged that you have gone through the book > > and made us aware about the extremely objectionable passages > > including the cover of the book. In fact, the book was > > published in 1985 by OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS and we never > > heard any adverse comments, hence without getting that > > reviewed we undertook the publication since it was originally > > published by an internationally established publisher. We did > > not care to go through the book thinking that this would be > > academically well acceptable. > > > > We are extremely sorry that the content of the book has hurt > > the sentiments of our beloved readers and the community at > > large. We offer our SINCEREST APOLOGIES to all our readers. > > > > We have already withdrawn the circulation of the book from > > the market and discontinued the sale.Further, we ensure that > > no such lapse shall ever occur in future. This need not be > > reiterated that MLBD has ever published any such offensive > > matter knowingly in the entire history of their publication > > for the last 100 years. Being one of the best known > > publishers devoted to Hinduism and ancient Indian culture we > > would never think to tarnish the image of any religion. This > > has been an omission on our part and we are really apologetic > > to the readers for its publication. > > > > May we request you to kindly circulate our letter of apology > > to various religious organisations, centres, and the Hindu > > community at large. A press release for the withdrawal of the > > circulation of the book has already been issued. We are also > > sending copies of this mail to various people around the > > world and would also like to have the E-mail addresses of > > other organisations, who we can inform for further > > circulation of this mail. > > > > ONCE AGAIN WE REGRET FOR THE PUBLICATION OF THE AFORESAID > > BOOK AND THANKS FOR INFORMING US OF SUCH OBJECTIONS. > > > > With kind regards, > > > > Sincerely, > > Rajeev Jain > > ------------ > > Motilal Banarsidass Publishers > > 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar > > Delhi-110007, (India) > > Tel: (011) 23974826, 23918335, 23911985, 23932747 > > (011) 25795180, 25793423, 25797356 > > Fax:(011) 23930689, 25797221 > > Email: mlbd , mlbd > > Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com > > > > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > > CELEBRATING 100 YEARS OF PUBLISHING (1903-2003) > > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 > > titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! > > http://us.click./x> lw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/x3XolB/> TM > > > > > > ----------------------------- > > -------~-> > > > > > > indology > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > http://docs./info/> terms/ > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > indology > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 > titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! > http://us.click./x> lw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/x3XolB/> TM > > > ----------------------------- > -------~-> > > > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to > http://docs./info/> terms/ > > > Sponsor indology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 < So how should a modern scholar react if a Hindu (of whatever persuasion) felt shocked when somebody pointed to the background for Shiva's linga? Should we shut up or look politely the other way?> 1. I believe it all depends on the context and on the audience. You don't have to shut up or look politely the other way if you are writing a paper for a scholarly journal. If you are writing a book for the general audience, it is appropriate to refer to the origins of linga worship: It is fine to point out that since the phallus is the generative organ, it was taken in the mythopoesy of the proto Indic culture (as in some others) as a symbol of the Creative Principle. But it is equally important to emphasize that with the transformation of the culture, the source of this symbol is now all but forgotten in the collective psyche of practicing Hindus, for millions of them pay homage to the lingam in Hindu temples without the slightest thought of the phallus. 2. I feel that in this age of interfaith conflicts and inter-cultural misunderstandings, it is the moral responsibility of scholars to help bring about greater mutual understanding, appreciation, and respect among the cultures and traditions of the world, rather than emphasize aspects which can only serve to increase mutual misunderstanding and disrespect. 4. It is ironic that in spite of more than a century and a half of dedicated Western Indology, the understanding of Hinduism among the educated in the West is at an appallingly deplorable level. So many Hindus rightly wonder what the goal of this scholarly enterprise is all about. It is also interesting that few Western scholars publish (or should I say, dare to publish) anything on the seamy side of Islamic culture and Quar'anic pronouncements. Does one "shut up and look politely the other way" because the subject is not that interesting or perhaps because of an instinct for survival, I am not sure. 5. I apologize for posting this often on a single day. Since no other Hindu thinker has anything to say on this topic (except for one who wrote sent me a personal note), I will shut up here. Personally I don't care who says what about the lingam or the yoni. Best regards, V. V. Raman November 3, 2003 - Lars Martin Fosse INDOLOGY Monday, November 03, 2003 5:34 PM SV: [Y-Indology] Ganesh V.V.Raman wrote: > 4. Personally I think it is possible to analyze and > understand a culture/religion which is not one's own with a > degree of sensitivity and sympathy without necessarily > accepting all its tenets and practices as perfect or beyond question. This is certainly true, and most serious academics try to do so. There are, however, some problems that won't go away, even if scholars try to be sensitive. For instance, there is no doubt that Shiva's linga is a phallos - this is verifiable in various ways. Yet, most Hindus do not think about the linga as a phallos, they see it as a cosmic symbol, and some might be shocked if the origin of the symbol was pointed out. It is a well-know fact that sensibilities change with time, and the people who once introduced the linga as a religious symbol did not think of it as something shocking or bad, to the contrary. So how should a modern scholar react if a Hindu (of whatever persuasion) felt shocked when somebody pointed to the background for Shiva's linga? Should we shut up or look politely the other way? I don't believe in provocation for the sake of provocation, and I don't quite see the point in proffering "shocking" theories when they are not underpinned by very solid arguments, given the multicultural situation we have today. There are more than enough people on all sides looking for a fight, so if we are to fight, it should be something worth fighting over. E.g. women's rights, human rights and such stuff. But on the other hand, we can't just deny reality because somebody feels hurt. This is difficult territory. Courtright wrote his book when the territory was easy, he can hardly be blamed for being insensitive, since the people who might feel shocked were hardly expected to read is book. If he had written it today, the situation would have been more complicated. I haven't read Courtright's book on Ganesa and can't pass judgement on the academic validity of his claims. My gut level reaction to the limp phallos theory is that he may have read too much Freud. But then I am sceptical of the use of psychology in the study of religion. A collective consciousness is not quite the same thing as an individual consciousness. There is, in other words, space for argument here. It would have been better if de Nicolas and his friends, whoever they are, had argued instead on embarking upon a condemnation crusade. All the best, Lars Martin Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. Sponsor indology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dear Professor Lars Martin Fosse: My initial posting on this matter was simply an effort to explain what seemed quite strange to you: the fuss about Courtright's book. As I said, it is not possible for you and others to understand why practicing Hindus feel the way they do. I respect your constraints. I am not sure that all Hindus will. The Indology group is engaged in several legitimate (academic) Indological exchanges. I do not wish to sully these discussions by prolonging our debate on religious sensitivities. So, I have nothing further to discuss on this matter. With due respects to academic vivisections, V. V. Raman November 5, 2003 - Lars Martin Fosse INDOLOGY Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:45 AM SV: [Y-Indology] Ganesh Dear V. V. Raman, Sorry about a somewhat belated response. > 2. I feel that in this age of interfaith conflicts and > inter-cultural misunderstandings, it is the moral > responsibility of scholars to help bring about greater mutual > understanding, appreciation, and respect among the cultures > and traditions of the world, rather than emphasize aspects > which can only serve to increase mutual misunderstanding and > disrespect. This is of course what we should ideally do. But perceptions of other religions by outsiders are always different from the perceptions of those who are inside the religion. Things do not get better if two religions take opposite positions on social and moral issues. Then mutual understanding is difficult. The best thing we can hope for, is an agreement between adherents of various religions not to use violence against people they disagree with, and a tacit mutual understanding that we should not wilfully and knowingly step on each other's toes for no good reason at all. But religious history shows us that this is a difficult proposition indeed. Some religions are "born to conquer", and they are in no mood for peaceful chitchat. Another problem is that modern civic rights and religious values don't match, with the inevitable result that the state and adherents of minority religions collide. Here, the ombudsperson for equality between the sexes is on the warpath targeting both Christian sects and Muslim congregations for discrimination of women. > 4. It is ironic that in spite of more than a century and a > half of dedicated Western Indology, the understanding of > Hinduism among the educated in the West is at an appallingly > deplorable level. So many Hindus rightly wonder what the > goal of this scholarly enterprise is all about. I think this is slightly unfair. The great problem is that since the turn of the 19th century, educated Europeans and the public at large have simply not been very interested in Islam or Hinduism. The study of these religions have been for a few interested souls, and their job was not to educate a public that couldn't care less. Today, the situation is different. Now the problem is also: which version should be fed to the public at large? The "indigenous" one, or the academic one - which is likely to differ in many ways from the "indigenous" versions. > It is also interesting that few Western scholars publish (or > should I say, dare to publish) anything on the seamy side of > Islamic culture and Quar'anic pronouncements. Does one "shut > up and look politely the other way" because the subject is > not that interesting or perhaps because of an instinct for > survival, I am not sure. I believe this is primarily an American phenomenon. In Norway (and I believe in the rest of Europe) Muslims have been criticized relentlessly since the Rushdie affair, when they managed to lose the sympathy of the liberal urban class in less than 24 hours. Yesterday, our minister for municipal affairs, a typical Nordic iron lady with one death threat to her "credit" so far, demanded that Muslims "modernize" and take note of the fact that they are living in Europe. Here, it's the Hindus who don't get any attention. Best wishes, Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. Sponsor indology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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