Free Will ???????

[Guest guest]

Friends I have been reading here and in other

clubs that God decides our future. some say "Krishna is

playing his lila" to decide our future some blame it on

Shiva, some on Durga and some on Luck. There are some

who blame satan for this.<br><br> Well I can not

digest it (that some cruel or kind unknown entity is

deciding about me). I have a free will and I can decide my

future. I can decide to be a demon or a deva.<br><br>

anybody to convince me otherwise (or get convinced by my

logic ) ????????????????????<br><br> :)

[Guest guest]

Dear kajolkpt,<br><br>you wrote: <br><br><<

Friends I have been reading here and in other clubs that

God decides our future. some say "Krishna is playing

his lila" to decide our future some blame it on

Shiva, some on Durga and some on Luck. There are some

who blame satan for this.<br><br>Well I can not

digest it (that some cruel or kind unknown entity is

deciding about me). I have a free will and I can decide my

future. I can decide to be a demon or a deva.

>><br>______________<br><br>You don't

know how right you are with that. <br>It is

the Bhakta's point of view that bhakti is the only

way to win GOD's (or in this case Krishna's) grace.

They love it to make someone else responsible for

their fate or destiny and worship gods and goddesses to

overcome their - oh, so terrible - sins.<br>They don't

know how great they are. They don't know the majesty

of their own being and rather enjoy it to think that

they are little, small, worthless sinners that only

through Krishna's or Rama's or Shiva's or Durga's or

Vishnu's or Kali's or Ganesha's or Uma's, etc., etc. grace

can become worthy. <br>Further, they mostly love it

to discuss and quarrel about who is the more

powerful and more gracious god that can save them more

quickly.<br><br>Yes, it is true. The free will is existent, though the

whole issue is much more complex and can't be

understood in human terms since time isn't that what it is

believed to be. There is no linear time and so your whole

future has already happenened. That also explains that

you are GOD - NOW - because you have never been

seperated. God has always been and will always be YOU. The

only thing that you must know is that YOU are

responsible for yourself and noone else. You create your

destiny and manifests your reality and there are

universal laws that bind.<br>For more info read this post:

<a

href=http://messages.clubs./clubs//bbs?action=m&tid=&si\

d=1600075991&mid=400

target=new>http://messages.clubs./clubs//bbs?action=m&tid=saadh\

naa&sid=160

0075991&mid=400</a><br><br>It's a dichotomy. On one hand, you are GOD, whereas

on

the other hand you are seperated. It's all a matter

of focussing. What you think is what you

get.<br><br>If you think you are seperated and have to win GOD's

grace, then it will be so.<br>If you think, you are GOD

and there's no need to worship any outer god, then it

will be so.<br>If you think, you are a worthless

sinner that can be saved only through GOD's grace, then

it will be so.<br>If you think that you are and

always have been GOD with all his love, majesty, and

wisdom, then it will be so...<br><br>WHAT YOU THINK IS

WHAT YOU GET!<br><br>Love,<br><br>Lucideye<br><br>PS:

I'm German, so please excuse my perhaps somewhat

lacking English.

[Guest guest]

Well, that took some thinking Kajol (ouch my head

hurts!) But i think i have some type of answer for you.

First of all, you do have a free will and you are free

to choose your path within your life. Want to be a

deva? Super the world is behind you there!!

<br><br>Oops, you want to be Hitler? Well.. you have chosen

your path but your fate becomes questionable as

Hitler's was too. i do not think that Hitler forsaw

himself sitting in a bunker with a pistol in his mouth,

because he choose to be this way do you? <br><br>i

believe there is a diety that is there smiling slightly

at whatever path we choose. Want to be a demigod or

a demon? Well, then be the best you can be!!! The

consequences are yours. <br><br>Unfortunately, some humans are

quick to pick a path and later plead ignorance when it

comes time to accept the consequences. Does God dole

out those consequences as judge, jury and

executioner? Nope, i do not think so their either. That is the

physics of action reaction in progress.<br><br>cont..

[Guest guest]

Free will ????<br>I'm afraid dear all that we

will is merely an outcome of whatever past (and hence

the samskaaras) we have had, where is free will that

you talk of ? The idea of free will is but an

illusion.<br>There may be a free will but not at all what one may be

expecting ?<br>Please continue to the next logical

question....waiting...<br>regards really

[Guest guest]

Dear really_i_am,<br>you

wrote:<br><br><<Free will ????<br>I'm afraid dear all that we will is

merely an outcome of whatever past (and hence the

samskaaras) we have had, where is free will that you talk of

? The idea of free will is but an

illusion.<br>There may be a free will but not at all what one may be

expecting ?<br>Please continue to the next logical

question....waiting...>><br><br>The next logical question is:<br>When

there has NEVER

been any free will, who is living your life

then?<br><br>Lucideye

[Guest guest]

Mr. Realy_you_are<br><br> u wrote <<< ,

where is free will that you talk of ? The idea of free

will is but an illusion.>>>>><br><br>

So i should believe it because you say so, without

any logic ?? <br><br> this is against my FREE WILL

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br><br>

[Guest guest]

Further clarification (If only you would have

paused and looked before reacting )<br>Who indeed is the

one who claims to be excercising his/her free

will?<br>A personality actually 'constructed' of its own

past ?<br>If I knew your past, second for second(all

the outer and inner happenings), I actually would

know whatever you are going to (freely)will right

now.<br>Where is freedom if this is so ?<br>What we claim to be

our free will is nothing but our action stemming out

of our personality, which is merely a bundle of all

of our respective pasts. All the memories, all our

responses, all our conditioning....<br>Again I say, there

really may exist a 'free will' but what may be its

nature ??<br>Who indeed would be capable of excercising

that free will ? "I" who am just a bundle of thoughts

and conditioning formed from my past 34 years

?<br>Or....<br>regards really

[Guest guest]

Dear lucideye,<br>you never cease to surprise

one, my regards.<br>As you ask<br>"When there has

never been any free will,Who is living my life

then?"<br><br>Only one correction here though, 'there has never been

any free will' is a tall claim that one can't make so

please replace it with the actual question asked, may be

you misunderstood to interpret my post as

such.<br><br>Anyhow " Who is living my life then?" will do

excellently for starters.<br>Who indeed?<br><br>regards

really

[Guest guest]

<< Anyhow " Who is living my life then?"

will do excellently for starters.<br>Who indeed?

>><br><br>This depends on your perspective and your idea of

yourself. <br><br>Therefore, if one claims, that he/she and

God are different and preaches Dvaita, he/she can't

claim that there is no free will. That wouldn't make

any sense. Well, who is living your life then?

<br><br>If you are different from God, it can only be you

(with your free will) that make the

decisions.<br><br>"There is no free will" is sheer Advaita and nothing

else.<br><br>Definitions of it may differ, but that doesn't matter. You

decide - since you are a free being with an individual

soul - what you want to experience.<br><br>That is

what creation is all about. God wanted to experience

itself through its creation and you wanted to get to

know yourself as existent and realized that thus, in

order to experience yourself as an individual, you

first had to experience "the other side of the medal" -

that is, that what you are NOT. <br><br>In the

beginning, you didn't know who you are since you only knew

one side of your existance. <br>You couldn't realize

love as love since you had never experienced anything

else than love. You couldn't realize yourself as an

seperate individual since you had never experienced

anything else than oneness.<br><br>And so you started to

discover your own free will and how to make use of it. And

since you've had this deep deep wish - to get to know

yourself - you chose - with your own free will - to

experience what you are NOT. All this hatred, misery,

teariness, suffering, etc. in order to fulfill you deepest

wish - to get to know yourSELF.<br><br>With

Love,<br><br>Lucideye

[Guest guest]

<< If I knew your past, second for

second(all the outer and inner happenings), I actually would

know whatever you are going to (freely)will right now.

>><br><br>Interesting. How would you do this? ;-)<br><br><< What

we claim to be our free will is nothing but our

action stemming out of our personality, which is merely

a bundle of all of our respective pasts. All the

memories, all our responses, all our conditioning....

>><br><br>So what. Of course, it is like this. But, that's it,

it is free will, or isn't it?<br> <br>That

explanation does not at all imply the fact that there can't

be a free will. It rather supports, if one possesses

a modicum of sense, the thesis of the free

will.<br>Do you think, that when you have done, thought,

spoke, etc. this and that, that there is ONLY ONE WAY to

proceed?<br>Don't you think that there are differnt possibilities

to choose between?<br>And further, what is

responsible for everything that you have done, spoken or

thought in the past. Your past prior to this one? And for

that? Your past prior to this one?<br>If you follow

this way back to the beginning (what is needless

anyway because you always uses your free will to make

your choices. Every second!)then one once must have

been made a choice that has determined your entire

future. <br>Do you think that was God? <br>Do you think

God has made one choice for you in the beginning and

thus, has determined your entire future for all of your

lives??<br>If you think so, then your god is a very cruel God.

A god that determines the destiny for everybody to

satisfy his need to play his

leela.<br><br>Love,<br><br>Lucideye

[Guest guest]

"""""<< What we claim to be our free will

is nothing but our action stemming out of our

personality, which is merely a bundle of all of our respective

pasts. All the memories, all our responses, all our

conditioning.... >><br><br>So what. Of course, it is like

this. But, that's it, it is free will, or isn't

it?""""<br><br><br>My dear, your past has already taken place and is

fixed as of now. Then whatever 'choice' coming out of

that has to be 'fixed' likewise<br>Would you still

call this 'free choice' ??<br>Just the fact that this

choice solely 'belongs' to you does not make it a free

choice.<br><br>regards really<br><br>PS: If computers wanted to be

men(their makers) then they would just have to drastically

change their 'point of view', any amount of 'processing'

would not help.

[Guest guest]

Do we mean by Free Will that we can do anything

we like? Society and laws are there to prevent us

from doing our misdoings. Family puts some

restrictions on us and these are necessary too to check the

recently developed animal in us. But these are not the

only boundaries! If we go a little deeper, we would

find that we are not only slaves of society, country

and family but are also slaves of our own desies as

an un-synchronised entity. What we call Our free

will is nothing but one of the hundreds of

possibilites presented to us by the system. And our ego

selects one of these possibilities, which accepts all the

boundaries imposed, and calls it His Free Will.<br><br>The

possibilitiies presented before us by Mother Nature are also not

independent in absolute terms. These possibilities are also

affected by the Universal Energies, our past Karma, The

ratio of Three gunas (Sat, Raj,Tam) and the limitations

of Time and Space.<br><br>Today's human, who boasts

of his independence, is in fact a combination of

indisciplined and non-cooperating faculties. A great struggle

is always going on between our Body, Prana, Budhhi,

mind, and ego. All of them present their demands and

budhhi after taking into account the boundaries, rejects

most of them and accepts one of them which could

fulfil all the slavery conditions. This final desire is

also checked by the Universal system who decides if it

is to be fulfilled at that point time or

not.<br><br> Only God can have a Free Will. Now if we treat

Him as a separate Ishwara there is no problem. But if

I start thinking "aham Brahasmi" then the struggle

starts. Because in the present set up the thinking, and

deciding factor is not God but Ego. Advaita is the highest

truth of our religion. But it is not something to start

with. Highest realms of Dwaita is the threshold of

Advaita. It is for Ramana Maharishis, Buddhas, Janakas,

Vashishtas and like, not for a common man like you and

me.<br><br> Start with simple Japa, Bhakti, Karma or Raja

Yoga and reach Advaita. That is what our religion

teaches.<br><br><br>hari Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

So There are only two possiblities in the present

set up of mind viz.<br><br>(1) I treat HIM as a

separate entity (as Krishna or shiva or Durga) and treat

myself as a spark of that infinite light. This way I can

explain my obstacles and my problems. This path is simple

and long but gives a sure progress slowly.<br><br>(2)

I understand the real Nature of Myself, as Him

only, understand completely the game of 3 gunas,

understand the Nature and its workings and keep myself away

from this game of Nature. This path is fast and very

difficult. It leads to chaos and downfalls if there is

slight misunderstaning. This path is very much liked by

young energetic inexperienced people because it

nourishes their ego and matches their energies. But youth

and energy is not required for this path. What is

required is mountain of Tapasaya (in this or last birth),

and clear analytical power of the Mind. If you have

this then go ahead...goal is there at touch of the

finger tips.<br>If not refer to (1) above <br><br>Hari

Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

Dear SilentSoul,<br><br><< 2) I understand

the real Nature of Myself, as Him only, understand

completely the game of 3 gunas, understand the Nature and

its workings and keep myself away from this game of

Nature. This path is fast and very difficult. It leads to

chaos and downfalls if there is slight misunderstaning.

This path is very much liked by young energetic

inexperienced people because it nourishes their ego and matches

their energies. >><br><br>Thank you for your wise

reply. You are definitely right with that. That's the

problem, but I, myself, don't think that I haven't

understood the concept since I have experienced this oneness

once.<br>The difficulties only occur if one doesn't realize

the law of karma.<br><br>Thanks

again,<br><br>Love,<br><br>Lucideye

[Guest guest]

Tks, lucid, really peggy and SS for teaching

me.<br><br> so what is the outcome of all this discussion ?

Do I have a free will or not ? As per lucid I have

(but whose will then opposes my plans ?)<br><br> and

as per others I do not have one, then what is that

which i feel as Free Will ?<br><br> Excuse me if I

project myself a dumbo in spiritual matters but I am like

that., cant help it <br><br>kajol

[Guest guest]

<< so what is the outcome of all this

discussion ? Do I have a free will or not

?>><br><br>It depends on your perspective. As per really_i_am,

SilentSoul and others you have no real free will, but at the

same time, they preach Dvita (Dualism). That doesn't

fit.<br><br>If you see yourself as a seperate individual you

definitely must have a free will.<br><br>If you see yourself

as one with God then there is no more any other will

than God's will that has become your will since you

have become one with God.<br><br>Conclusion:<br><br>If

you experience yourself different from God, you can't

claim there's no free will.<br><br>If you experience

yourself one with God (what nobody does here) there are no

more two but just one will that is the will of god.

[Guest guest]

Dear SilentSoul,<br><br>I have never claimed to

experience currently my oneness with God.<br>I merely

claimed that Advaita is the highest truth that can be

experienced by everyone. Often, it is helpful for most people

to feel more worthy since the biggest problem of

present day's humanity is mainly that they DO NOT feel

worthy in comparison to God, that they see themselves as

sinners and small, worthless blighters that can only be

saved by God's grace.<br>And then psychologically, it

is often SO helpful to let them know the truth. That

they are worthy, that they ARE one with God, that they

indeed ARE God. This often can provide great

healing.<br><br>The Dvaita concept often implies self denial and do

not support self esteem and is psychologically not

always helpful. One should know BOTH truths, don't you

think?<br><br>Love,<br><br>Lucideye

[Guest guest]

Dear Lucideye,<br><br>I do not understand why you

wrote this, I nowhere referred you in my post anyway.

Please read my both posts again. I have said the same

thing which you are saying, but in a different

way.<br><br> If a Bhakta claims, Advaita is untruth, he is yet

an immature Bhakta and if one Advaitin claims

Bhaktas are ignorant, he has neither understood Bhakti

nor Advaita.<br><br> A Real Bhakta and a real

Advaitin do not say either path is incorrect. They see

truth of their path as well as truth of others.<br><br>

So instead of proving others wrong let us use our

energies in synchronising the various truths and find the

Absolute and Exellent. <br><br> Remember Ego rejects, Mind

contradicts, heart loves and Soul Accepts.<br><br>Hari Om Tat

Sat

[Guest guest]

Dear SilentSoul, wise man,<br><br>You are as

always right with that. My intent was merely to support

the point that Advaita can be so helpful for people

to heal.<br><br>I know that you see it the same way.

It wasn't meant to you. The "don't you think?" was

superfluous. <br><br>Sorry for

that.<br><br>Love,<br><br>Lucideye

[Guest guest]

Dear Silent Soul,<br><br>You said:<br>Advaita is

the highest truth of our religion. But it is not

something to start with. Highest realms of Dwaita is the

threshold of Advaita. <br><br>I would like to reply that

this is only one conception and certainly not

universally accepted. It is the conception of those who

follow Sankaracharya's commentary on Vedanta sutra.

There are Vaishnava commentaries on the sutras by

Madvacharya, Ramanujacharya and Baladeva Vidyabushana that

present a differt thesis. The Gaudiya Vaishnvava

conception (vaishnavas coming in the line of Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu) is achintya beda abeda tattva - that we are

simultaniously and inconcievably one with and different from

God. This conception harmonizes the dualistic and

non-dualistic conceptions, saying that it is both! We are one

in that we are spirit and God/Krsna is spirit. We

are different because he is the creator and we are

the created. This difference allows for exchange of

love in transcendence. I can elaborate more is there

is interest from other members of this

club.<br><br>I am new and I hope that you will all welcome me

into your association. My name is Audarya lila dasa

and I am a practicing Gaudiya Vaishanva. My spritual

master is Sripad B.V. Tripurari Swami who is a disciple

of A.C. Bhaktivedanta as well as Bhakti Rakshaka

Sridhara Deva Goswami. Our spiritual lineage is called the

Brahma - Madva - Gaudiya Sampradaya.<br><br>I am not

sure how to create my personal profile so I am giving

a little bit here - I hope that is alright with

everyone.<br><br>sincerely,<br>Audarya lila dasa