Does God Exist?

[Guest guest]

Is God something real? according to most people,

<br>God is the reality underlying the reality of

everything- including both experience and the external world.

<br><br>so, my question is if science can not build a bridge

from experience to reality can religion

(dwaita,advaita, visishta-advaita, islam, christianity etc) can

build a bridge from experience to reality? <br><br>so,

does God exist? many people "KNOW " GOD exists. even

if GOD exists, this is a belief- but, it is only a

belief - it is not knowledge for this to be knowledge it

has to be supported by evidence or reasons.

<br><br>so, is there adequate evidence that GOD exists?

<br><br><br>alex-yo go first- really_ i _ am, you are next.

<br><br>waiting and looking forward to a lively discussion,

<br><br><br>Spencer

[Guest guest]

Dear Spencer,<br>you wrote:<br><br><< so,

my question is if science can not build a bridge

from experience to reality can religion

(dwaita,advaita, visishta-advaita, islam, christianity etc) can

build a bridge from experience to reality?

>><br><br>What is reality, is my question for you. <br>I tell

you, there are thousands of realities. Everybody has

his own, but there's only one reality of

God.<br><br><< so, does God exist? many people "KNOW " GOD

exists. even if GOD exists, this is a belief- but, it is

only a belief - it is not knowledge for this to be

knowledge it has to be supported by evidence or reasons.

>><br><br>There has to be a God because nothing can be created

without imagination. There can be no house, if it hasn't

been in one's imagination before it has been built.

There can be no PC if noone would ever have imagined

it.<br>And thus, regarding the perfectness of the universe

with all of its worlds, you naturally have to assume,

that if everything that exists must have been in one's

imagination before it could be created, then who would you

think has that been? <br>Or do you think it was merely

by chance?<br>Highly unlikely, since it is so

perfect and that indeed, immense imagination is necessary

to create such.<br><br>My book recommendation for

you: "The Freedom of choice". Can be downloaded for

free at

<a href=http://www.thiaoouba.com

target=new>http://www.thiaoouba.com</a><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Alex

[Guest guest]

dear alex, thanks pal. i will certainly check

into that book you have mentioned. it seems to have

blown your mind. <br><br>well, assuming that God

created this universe. who created God? <br><br>that is

why i do not believe in miracle stories - <br>neither

that of hindu god, christian god or islamic god. so

all this blood of christ and jesus died for our sins

etc..i do not believe -also all these krisna stories .

<br><br>the only thing iS differ is with kajol's views

regarding free will. what people do with their own free

will is their own responsibility . kajol can say good

bye to her Studies and wander around or become a hare

krishna -it is her choice but she has to face the

consequences of her free will. <br><br>so, have a free will

for all i care but absolve others of the

responsibility of your unwise actions. <br><br>bottom line-

belief in any god is dangerous (hindu or other) because

faith provides a reason for preferring god of one

religion to god of another. that is why we have all this

violence .<br><br>best wishes, Spencer

[Guest guest]

Dear Spencer,<br><br>In your last post you

wrote:<br><br>bottom line- belief in any god is dangerous (hindu or

other) because faith provides a reason for preferring

god of one religion to god of another. that is why we

have all this violence .<br><br><br>I could not

possibly disagree with you more. Without God what we have

is self-interest which will always lead to conflict.

Vaikuntha (the spiritual world) is a land of harmony - all

conflict resolved. Spiritual life is really a matter of

proper adjustment of our vision. When we see the world

as something to exploit or renounce - we are at odds

with it and create a situation which inevitably will

lead to dischord and violence. When we see all things

in relationship to God and that their proper

utilization is in his service all things are harmonized and

the environment becomes peaceful. The Bhagavad-gita

says that a saint/sadhu is friend to all and has no

enemies. Why? Because he has only the interest of

God/Krsna permeating his entire being - no selfishness. It

is selfishness that creates violence, not

spirituality.<br><br>The Gaudiya Vaishnava conception of reality is based

on the principal of achintya beda abeda tattva.

Inconceivable, simultaneous oneness and differnce with God.

Unity and diversity together in harmony. This is the

highest ideal - celebrating our oneness and our

uniqueness.<br><br>I would also venture to say that it is shallow

thinking that leads to conflict, not genuine faith and

honest endeavor toward approaching divinity. Please read

the quote below and give it some thought as it speaks

about what 'belief' is all about and how it fructifies

into tangible experience.<br><br>The Veda (sacred

literature of India) does not claim that by studying its

words with our intellect we will know the truth. It

does not attempt to establish that which is eternally

self-established. It is the self-established truth imploring us to

take up the means of experiencing the truth

ourselves.<br><br>sincerely,<br>Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

dear Audarya lila daa, <br><br>you

write,<br><br><< Without God what we have is self-interest which

will always lead to conflict............. .... It is

selfishness that creates violence, not

spirituality.<br><br>yes, "true " spirituality does not create violence but

"pseudo" spirituality does. so, why do you equate God with

KRISHNA. why is GOD not ALLAH or SOMEBODY ELSE? my whole

point is this compulsive-obsessive fanatical beliefs

are what lead to violence <br><br>if your God/krisna

is so all-knowing, all powerful and is perfect, why

is there so much suffering in this world? so, god

either does not know about the suffering (in which case

god is not all knowing and therefore not god) or else

god knows about suffering but can not stop it in

which case god is not all-powerful and is therefore not

god. or perhaps god knows about the sufferinf and can

stop it but chooses not to which in which case god is

not perfectly "good"{ and therefore not god. )

<br><br><< the principal of achintya beda abeda tattva.

Inconceivable, simultaneous oneness and differnce with God.

Unity and diversity together in harmony. This is the

highest ideal - celebrating our oneness and our

uniqueness.<br><br>i am not impressed by these phraes achintya beda

abeda tattwa etc.. nor by the karma theory. is your

knowledge based on your direct experience. what you write

or what you know about krisna consciousnress is

based on what your guru said and what his guru said and

so on. <br><br>direct knowledge is the ultimate

source of all knowledge . not only that, everything we

know directly must be based on our own experience, and

your own "present" experience . <br><br>it is the

"gulf" between what you know (or think you know ) and

your present experience (not past) that is the key.

<br><br>the upanishads say "SATYAM GNANAM ANANTAM BRAHMAN" -

so, is Krsna the ultimate truth, the ultimate

knowledge and the ultimate reality ? why not allah or

jesus? <br><br>SCIENCE without religion is lame and

religion without science is blind says einstein.

<br><br>Spencer

[Guest guest]

"why is GOD not ALLAH or SOMEBODY ELSE? my whole

point is this compulsive-obsessive fanatical beliefs

are what lead to violence"<br>well, she/he IS, at

least from hindu perspective. Why cant we have it

all?<br><br>"if your God/krisna is so all-knowing, all powerful

and is perfect, why is there so much suffering in

this world? so, god either does not know about the

suffering (in which case god is not all knowing and

therefore not god) or else god knows about suffering but

can not stop it in which case god is not all-powerful

and is therefore not god. or perhaps god knows about

the sufferinf and can stop it but chooses not to

which in which case god is not perfectly "good"{ and

therefore not god. "<br><br>Sorry, cant blame suffering on

God. That is our doing and a consequence of our free

will. Of course God can stop it but we earn suffering.

Here is a great joke about the four noble truths,

"Patient pointing to elbow - Doctuh, it hoits when i do

like dis."<br>Doctor (imitating gesture) Don' do like

dot." Suffering is the first noble truth. The origin of

suffering (dukkha) is from us (internal and the second

noble truth)! It is not about what happens to us but

how we process it. Therefore the extinction of

suffering is also internal (The second noble truth). "Don'

do like dot!" <br><br>The Fourth noble truth is the

path of extinction of suffering (Marga.)The

prescription for the treatment has been recommended for

centuries by the most eminent specialists. So, who is your

doctor?<br><br>"is your knowledge based on your direct experience.

what you write or what you know about krisna

consciousnress is based on what your guru said and what his guru

said and so on."<br><br>Ya know spencer, i can

reinvent the wheel if i must or any other invention. But

why? For my own experience? A bit redundant, no? Its

been done already. Am i so dense that after being told

that Acid burns i MUST put my hand in it to know? i

can see the results of others. Note: i saw it. and

for me, seeing is believing. i saw what my guru

experiences each day in his behavior and happiness and i want

that for myself. Why should i stumble around when i

see a guy up ahead with a candle?? it is time i ran

up to him and we walk together.<br><br>om tat

sat<br>peg

[Guest guest]

sorry, the extinction of suffering is the fourth noble truth.

[Guest guest]

Dear Spencer,<br><br>Others have answered your

message to a large extent already, however I do feel that

I should clarify a few things.<br><br>I am glad to

see that you acknowledge that 'true spirituality'

does not lead to violence. Falsity means self interest

and will lead to dischord and violence - so we agree

on this - however we disagree on what constitutes

'true spirituality'. God has unlimited forms and having

one does not mean that he cannot have another. God is

unlimited and has unlimited capacity to display himself in

unlimited ways. Gaudiya Vaishnava's acknowledge all

expressions of divinity as fully god and equal to each other.

It is on the basis of aesthetic considerations (rasa

vicara) that we place special emphasis on Krsna and

worship him as our ista devata. In the form of Krsna God

has revealed the very heart of divinity and all

possibilities of loving exchange are displayed in his loving

pastimes.<br><br>I was not trying to impress you with the term

achintya beda adedha tattva. This is a very sublime

philosophical truth and will require you to be more thoughtful

and introspective to fully grasp the beauty and truth

of it. It is the thesis of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and

is drawn out from the Srimad Bhagavatam. Please

reflect on this a little more as it harmonizes all

conceptions of divinity and is most sublime. Inconceivable

simultaneous oneness and difference. God is both the

impersonal unmanifest Brahman and the Supreme Personality of

Godhead Krsna. He is both simultaneously.<br><br>You said

that direct knowledge is the ultimate source of all

knowledge. You also said that everything we know directly

must come from our direct experience. I have already

dealt with how we can know conclusive truth in a

previous post. You would do well to read the tattva

sandarbha of Jiva Goswami. Please read my previous post for

more details on this comment. Other than that you

should know that it is said that the most intelligent

person will hear the truth once and understand it (know

it). A less intelligent person will hear the truth and

not understand it, but having once experienced it

will then understand. And one who hears and

experiences and still does not understand - who continues to

act in opposition to that truth - has no

intelligence. The example of one who is told that fire burns is

an apt example. One who accepts this and understands

it by hearing is most intelligent. The one who has

to place his hand in the fire to understand is less

intelligent. The one who continues to burn himself is simply

foolish.<br><br>Absolute truth can only be had by revelation. Who he

chooses to reveal himself to and how he reveals himself

cannot be questioned. He is ever in the super subjective

plain - far above our heads and reasoning power. So in

the Gitopanishad Krsna has said that he reserves the

right to reveal himself to those who are devoted to

him. And the method of revelation? What about that? He

says in chapter 4 verse 34 that one should try to

learn the truth by approaching a bona fide spiritual

master. One should inquire submissively from him and

render all kinds of service to him. The self realized

soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen

the truth. Please read the quote below again as it

directly speaks to your question.<br><br><br>"The Veda

(sacred literature of India) does not claim that by

studying its words with our intellect we will know the

truth. It does not attempt to establish that which is

eternally self-established. It is the self-established

truth imploring us to take up the means of experiencing

the truth ourselves."<br><br>sincerely,<br>Audarya

lila dasa