Food for less thought ...

[Guest guest]

namaste my brothers and sisters,<br><br>Here is

part of my take on all of this. For me, Sadhna is a

combination of self-study, Rajayoga and the study of

philosophies like memetics:<br><br>Dismantling the selfplex ;

meme machines and the nature of

consciousness<br><br>Susan Blackmore<br>Department of

Psychology<br>University of the West of England<br>Bristol<br><br>The

world and the self who experiences it seem separate,

even though no self can be found within the brain, and

there are good reasons for thinking it is an illusion.

For anyone who wants to avoid dualism the interesting

question is this. Why should we humans live under the

illusion of being a self with consciousness and free will,

if such a thing does not exist? <br><br>Evolutionary

theory might provide an answer, yet a false sense of

self does not obviously contribute to inclusive

fitness and may even reduce it. I propose that the

correct evolutionary explanation is not in terms of

benefit to genes, but benefit to memes.<br><br>Memes are

information that is copied from person to person by

imitation. They are replicators subject to heredity,

variation and selection, and they compete for space in our

minds and cultures, shaping human nature as they go. We

humans are meme machines; selective imitators, who spend

our lives copying memes. Why then do we have

selves?<br><br>A self is a co-adapted meme complex (or memeplex)

whose function is to protect and propagate its

constituent memes. A memeplex forms whenever a group of memes

can propagate better together than they can alone.

Examples include religions, languages, political systems

and scientific theories that have evolved over long

periods, with adaptations that protect them from

dissolution or from competing memeplexes.<br><br>The selfplex

is a large collection of memes using a single body

for their protection and propagation. Once a selfplex

begins to grow it provides a haven for more memes. For

example, people may argue strongly for their beliefs,

using emotional language and phrases such as "I believe

....I think ...I want ...". This behaviour

promotes the memes, and in addition feeds the false idea

that there is an inner self who has the opinions,

makes the decisions and perceives the

world.<br><br>Thus far the theory is similar to Dennett’s but there

are two fundamental differences. First Dennett calls

the self a "benign user illusion". I suggest it is

far from benign, and is the root source of human

suffering and delusion. The creation of a selfplex means we

live our lives as a lie; constantly falling into

dualism, and prey to all the emotions concerned with

protecting our false self from harm or dissolution. Second,

for Dennett consciousness "is itself a huge complex

of memes", which implies that if all the memes were

dropped consciousness would cease. An alternative is that

the memes of the selfplex obscure and distort

consciousness rather than constituting it.<br><br>This is a an

empirical question, well suited to first-person research

with available methods. Meditation and mindfulness can

be seen as techniques for dropping memes (or

meme-weeding), their ultimate effect being to dismantle the

selfplex. We may ask those who have completed this path

what happens. I believe their answer is that dualism

falls away but consciousness (though it may be

transformed) does not.<br><br>Read more stuff

here:<br><br><a href=http://www.memes.org.uk/

target=new>http://www.memes.org.uk/</a><br><br>with all my love,<br><br>-jg.

[Guest guest]

<<We may ask those who have completed this

path what happens.>><br><br>jg<br><br>With

respect, instead of asking others, why not try meditation

and find out for yourself? That is the only way to

the knowledge you seek.<br><br>If you want the

definitive explanation on consciousness, refer to

Patanjali's Raja Yoga Sutras. Memes, as you call them are

just vritties or thought waves: repeat the vritti and

it becomes more ingrained and is called a samskara

and impels the consciousness to action: a chain or

linkage of samskaras is a vasana.<br><br>As for Mr?

Dennett, pedantic theorizing will lead nowhere. It is

about as useful as discussing how angels there can be

on the head of a pin. No, I'm not anti-intellectual.

My degree was in philosophy, and especially logic.

But I recognize the limits and pitfalls of that type

of inquiry. In a nutshell, the mindset required for

academic philosophical inquiry and discourse is the

antithesis of that required to arrive at an awareness of the

truth sought. Moreover, the mindset used in that

inquiry lends itself to self-absorption and ego

aggrandizement.<br><br>As Swami Sivananda has said. "Serve. Love. Love.

Give. Meditate. Realize."<br><br>Hari Om Tat

Sat<br><br>Omprem

[Guest guest]

Dear Omprem,<br><br>Thank you for your kind note.

I liked what you said, and I will begin to

integrate it into my non-thinking mind.<br><br>I was a

little confused by your orginal premise, however.

<br><br>I'm not sure why you assumed that I don't meditate. I

do, as a regular part of my yoga practice. Perhaps I

was not clear enough, in that the bulk of my post was

not writen by me, but was, in fact, writen by Dr.

Susan Blackmore. The most interesting thing about your

reaction to her words, is that meditation is precisely the

advice that Susan gives as the only way to free one's

selfplex from unhealty memes. I would highly recommend all

persons here to read her work. A fascinating perspecting

on The Path. <br><br>Also, thank you for reminding

me to continue my study of the writings of

Patanjali. As you know, these sutras are the foundation of

Rajayoga, and are a vital memeplex for supporting the

cessation of the vrittis.<br><br>yours in yoga,<br><br>-jg.

[Guest guest]

jg<br><br>Thanks for clearing up my confusion re

who was saying what in your post. It makes sense that

that you meditate or else why would you be posting on

this board?<br><br>Some other references on the

subject of consciousness-mind-brain that you might find

interesting are:<br><br>1. Mind & Its Mysteries<br> --Swami

Sivananda<br><br>2. Spiritual Experiences<br> --Swami

Sivananda<br><br>3. Ayurveda and the Mind: the Healing of

Consciousness<br> --Dr. David Frawley<br><br><br>Your fellow

traveller<br><br>Omprem

[Guest guest]

Hi jg!<br><br>Welcome and thanks for your

interesting post introducing the idea of 'meme". I've been

reading with interest the information on the 'meme' and

wondering if I should participate in it being carried on.

<br><br>Quoting one of the articles - "The answer, I suggest,

lies in memes. Memes are stories, songs, habits,

skills, inventions and ways of doing things that we copy

from person to person by imitation. Human nature can

be explained by evolutionary theory, but only when

we consider evolving memes as well as

genes.<br><br>It is tempting to consider memes as simply "ideas,"

but more properly memes are a form of information.

(Genes, too, are information: instructions, written in

DNA, for building proteins.) Thus, the meme for, say,

the first eight notes of the Twilight Zone theme can

be recorded not only in the neurons of a person (who

will recognize the notes when she hears them) but also

in magnetic patterns on a videocassette or in ink

markings on a page of sheet music."<br><br>As long as I

have been a student of the human mind it has never

failed to amaze me how the reasearch presented in the

western world continues to remain cultural blind. Whether

it is personality theories or theories of causality

in mental health disorders, I have sat in class

wondering "where do I fit into all of this?" Theories, best

selling ideas, all draw incredible conclusions about the

human mind, talking about the "we" humans, and yet they

leave out the majority of the world's population from

their study. The recent TIME mag. article on

yoga,though more pupular than professional was an interesting

point in question. A science and art whose origins are

perhaps lost in antiquity in the history pages of India

had no images of the Indian yogi! <br><br>As omprem

pointed out, meme (as far as the little I read form the

sites) appears to be a new term for the old concept of

Samskaras and Vasanas. The very reason for our staying

within the cycle of rebirths, and where we tend to stay

as long as we cannot break out of the old pattern of

thoughts which are being called memes. <br><br>It makes me

curious though. Old ideas come back again and again like

clothing styles. In a new format, a new package and

perhaps a newer twist. So much of knowledge for ones

liberation form this cycle of ignorance already exists and

yet people constantly attempt to reinvent the wheel.

And claim awards and accollades for the mental

exercise as if it is a first.<br><br>Why do you suppose

that happens? Is it the human ego refusing to address

the silence within and busying itself with

intellectual excercises? What is the role of intellectual

excercises of this sort - if any? <br><br>Our club goal too

is in a way an intellectual attempt to understand

our expereinces. If we were totally grounded in the

silence within we wouldn't have any need to write post

and exchange ideas would we? <br><br>I only present

these thoughts for discussion. Dear members what do you

think? All thoughts are welcome .. both for and against.

Please don't feel that you have to agree with everything

being said here. <br><br>Thanks again jg! do share more

about your path. What form of yoga do you practice and

how has it enhanced your spiritual sadhna?

<br><br>Love to all!<br><br>Tat Twam Asi<br>UMA