karma

October 22, 2001

Greetings OmPrem, And thanks for helping

me put my point across. Really

appreciated. I would also like to say that while Meditation

inculcates a lot of self-discipline and self-control, it is

individualistic. I think in the present troubled times (particularly

the events of the month or so), seems to stress the

importance of action more than anything else. The

self-conscious and progressive people in the world should unite

and try to create a world that is free from the evils

of exploitation. Note that I say evils of

exploitation, and not religion; because I believe that on the

day exploitation is ended, the need for religion will

also end. It won't be any one single day, of

course, but I am referring to a time period. That

is why we need to constantly examine and query the

*source* and conditions that produce our thought, rather

than focus on the thought. To modify one's

thoughts, one must modify one's circumstances, rather the

cirsumstances of the entire society.

October 22, 2001

Greetings, "Is consciousness the same

thing as awareness?" I would say there is a

difference, at least in the way I define

consciousness. For me, awareness is lesser in scope and

consciousness is broader in scope. Awareness is a

smaller subset of consciousness. I would define

awareness as simply being aware or cognisant of certain

facts, or certain ideas and being able to make a

decision/choice based on that knowledge. Consciousness, on

the other hand, is the entire aggregation of all your

ideas and beliefs, which have been shaped by your

circumstances and the historical epoch in which you

live. Thus, your consciousness is very much different from

that of a person living in the 15th century, or even

from that of a person living today is a different

country/society. Our consciousness is shaped by the social, economic

and class nature of the society we live in.

October 22, 2001

(((((((((((((((father)))))))))))))))) in love, mirabai

October 22, 2001

I am leaving the subject as "Re: Karma", only

because my reply is to this thread of discussion. I do

not see, however, how it is only about karma.

Personally, I feel the real issue here is faith. Are we

strong enough in our faith to dive into the ocean if

Divinity, or do we stand on the shore, feeling no desire to

jump? If one is content with his/her own life, and does

not feel a pull towards this water, then so be it. Do

not jump for the sake of diving, or because your

friends/family/culture dictates you take this plunge. Jump only if and

when you hear the voice whispering so loudly you can

not ignore it, and then jump only out of

faith. While I do find this discussion fascinating from a

social point of view, from a spiritual mindset I find it

refreshing. This thread reminds me that I am in the water, up

over my head, and I don't want to go back to the shore

again. Om Shanti Erica

October 22, 2001

I bet you meant STILL simpler words , well let

me try, when the quality(terseness) of phrases goes

down, I'm afraid, the quantity will rise, so please

bear with me. Towards solving any problem faced by

an individual, there usually are many solutions.

They are arrived at by basically two approaches one

inwards, other outwards Seeing the perennial problems

faced by mankind, Gautama set about to find the

solutions in the earnest and arrived at the a way of

life(the middle path) by searching inwards. Very unlike

materialists of today when they try to fill the vacuum of our

desires by outward solutions, resulting in a literal

flood of goods catering to the million sensual

needs. All this may be appearing quite boring by now as it

is so often heard being preached. The

dissatisfaction you display with the present state of affairs

regarding religion is most valid and true for any seeker of

truth. Om prem has already offered his ideas regarding

the solutions in line with his “religious” or

spiritual view-point which can only be appreciated in the

true sense if one is looking inwards. But most of

your grievances seem to be arising out of people,

organisations, institutions associated with religion and not

with religion or spirituality itself. The name of

this club means the path an individual(mind you, an

individual !) takes towards his truth, nothing to do

whatsoever with any organisation etc., although he may be

outwardly associated with one but the he does is

unique to him, no two s can be exactly the

same. The Gita also says exactly the same thing as you

although in a more poetic way that the self by self effort

only can help realise the Self and nothing

else. Let us now hear from you, what do you think should be

done after discarding all this hypocrisy of religions.

I sincerely hope we are able to find something

useful and fresh instead of just another similar thing

but just not calling it religion. still a long way

to go... Regards really

October 22, 2001

Greetings, Yes, now I know what you meant

by inward-looking and outward-looking. "Very

unlike materialists of today when they try to fill the

vacuum of our desires by outward solutions, resulting in

a literal flood of goods catering to the million

sensual needs." I agee. That is totally useless

because the source of frustrations and desires does not

lie within ourselves, but in the nature of society

that we live in. Thus, the resolution is not

individualistic, but social. Only by changing the social

relations can these ills be cured. "But most of your

grievances seem to be arising out of people, organisations,

institutions associated with religion and not with religion or

spirituality itself." It is with religion and

spirituality itself. The institutions that you mention

are nothing but the manifestation of the inherent

flaws in religion. When the need for religion goes

away, those institutions will also go

away. During these discussions, I try to find if spiritualism

has an answer to the causes of social ills and its

resolution. I think it does not. For two reasons: 1.

Religion arises from a belief that whatever is there in

this world is not everything. There is something

beyond it-something better-and the quest for it. This

reasoning is flawed. Religion also arises as an

opposite-or an escape from the material world. 2.

Spiritualism is individualistic, or in your words,

inward-looking. The causes of social ills lie not within oneself

but with the nature of the social relations within a

civilisation. And it is by consciously changing the social

relations that those ills can be cured. "Let us now

hear from you, what do you think should be done after

discarding all this hypocrisy of religions. I sincerely hope

we are able to find something useful and fresh

instead of just another similar thing but just not

calling it religion." I wish I knew of a simple

solution. We are all united in finding a solution to these

problems-in our own different ways. There is no

"step-by-step guide" to abolishing religion or the social

relations created by religion. However, one of the

first things to realise is that religion is nothing but

a manifestation of the contradictions within

society. I am not talking about the squabble between

the different religious groups, but contradictions

created by the class nature of society and the fact that

most religious ideas exist simply to preserve the

hegemony of the ruling classes and the "controllers" of

morals. Once we understand that religion is a

'super-structure', mounted on top of the economic and social

relations in a society, we will understand how religion

maintains, re-inforces and fosters the class nature of

society. Secondly, it is also necessary to understand that the

resolution of these contradictions does not lie in being

more spiritual, or having more 'faith'. But in

action. The people who are conscious of the ills of society

(which ultimately become the ills of every individual)

must unite and jointly fight to abolish the class

nature of society and direct their efforts towards

changing the base holding the 'super-structure', namely

the productive forces. The powers of production

and distribution in a society must be altered in a

way that it serves the common good, and not the greed

of a few select classes and individuals. I

don't know if any of this is making any sense at all,

or if all of you think I am raving. Please let me

know if you find anything that appeals to you or makes

any sense to you within whatever I have said. Of

course most of you might disagree and I am fine with

that. Most people seem to think that in purifying themselves

through spiritualism and saadhna, they will be at peace

with themselves and the world. Not so !!

October 22, 2001

"Most people seem to think that in purifying

themselves through spiritualism and saadhna, they will be at

peace with themselves and the world. Not so !!

" My first reaction to this was.....ohhhhh really???

Then I thought about it. It is my belief that we are

part and parcel of the divine, the divine is already

pure...hence, we are pure. When we choose to reincarnate back

into this human plane, we also know that we will have

to re-member that we are pure and divine. This is

what spirituality to me is all about--the journey to

remember. Am I at peace in my practice? ABSOLUTELY! Am I at

peace with the world? I cannot change the world, only

the part I play in it When you think about

it.....there is no "I" anyway as going back to my original

thought, "i", "we", "me", "you", "us"....do not truly

exist....only the divine exists. in love,

mirabai PS...now this is truly rambling

October 22, 2001

It was a real pleasure reading your post Silent Soul, wish you post more often

now, as , when the soul is non active, opposition tries to take

over. Pranam Raja

October 23, 2001

Dear Silent Opposition, It is impossible

for me personally to be dogmatic about Hinduism,

because I am only as yet feeling my way into my spiritual

beliefs and practises My whole life thus far

has been dedicated to reason, to the pursuit of

academic knowledge ... I have spent 6 of the 9 years since

I turned 18 studying at university ... but reason

lacks the capacity to make me HAPPY. It lacks the

ability to make me at peace and in harmony with myself

and with others. Application of logic and

intellectualisation of my situation has been unable to prevent me

from falling into profound and prolonged depressions.

Earlier in life, I placed my hope in drug therapies, as

there is good, reasonable evidence for their efficacy,

and for a model of mental illness based on imablanced

brain chemistry. In recent years, however, the drugs do

not work for me. I can change brands, change dosages,

and I am still depressed. My doctors are baffled, I

am doing all the 'correct', reasonable things, yet

the anticpated outcome remains elusive. A

change in my SPIRITUAL condition, however, has made

major, unexpected changes. I am more able to live in

this world with faith. Reason does not help me combat

despair; faith does. In addition, as a woman, I

find the insistence that reason and the intellect are

superior to emotion, faith, FEELING, to be a rather

masculinist supposition. We require BOTH, both the science of

living, and the art of living, if we can ever hope to

achieve a blanaced existence. Reason is wonderful, but it

is not the only way of experiencing, of

knowing. Padma

October 23, 2001

Greetings Padma, I think you misunderstood

my posts. I am not arguing in favour of reason

over emotions. Nor am I arguing in favour of intellect

over faith. In fact, personally, I believe them to

be inseparable. They are all a part of our mind,

different aspects of our thought. Our intellect and

faith and emotions are all shaped by the social

relations that we live under. What I have been

trying to put across in my thoughts is the *social*

character of intellect and emotions, rather than

individual. In my previous posts, I have already said how

inadequate and corrupting religion is. As for saadhna

and meditation, it is individualistic in

character. While it may help certain individuals in controlling

and shaping your thoughts and draining our negative

emotions and negative thoughts out of the mind, it does

nothing [nothing] at all to change the basic causes and

relations of stress. What we need is collective action,

and not at the individual level. In any case, the

source of our frustrations do not lie within us. It lies

in the nature of social relations that we live

under. That does not mean that an individual is not

responsible for his/her actions. We are all responsible for

our faults and successes. However, we need to

understand that nature exists independent of our mind. The

way man shapes nature to meet his needs determines

his consciousness and the social relations. Thus

to change our consciousness and the social

relations, we must change the way the powers of production

and distribution are organised in our

society. But I am rambling again.....please tell me if this

makes any sense to you or helps in any understanding at

all.

October 23, 2001

Greetings Mirabai, "Am I at peace in my

practice? ABSOLUTELY! Am I at peace with the world? I

cannot change the world, only the part I play in it

:)" But that itself is quite significant. If everyone

changes the part that they play in the world, the sum

total will be significant enough to change the social

system that we live under. As for re-incarnation,

I do not believe in it. There is only one life

and you better do whatever you want to do in it

In fact, eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, its

gotta end *somewhere*.....

October 23, 2001

Greetings SS, "It is better to be an

athiest than to be a hypocritic spiritual." I am

not an athiest. In my heart of hearts, I do believe

in God. Like everyone else, I am also a product

of our times. A belief in God is required to

exercise control over our actions and

emotions. However, I also do feel that this belief, this idea of

religion, is only a product of the times when man has not

mastered nature in such a way that all needs and

fulfilled. When man is able to consciously modify the relations

of production and distribution in such a way that

man's needs and wants are met, and not the greed of a

few select groups, then the need for religion and

idealism will gradually wither away. "do not

necessarily prove Christ was wrong...or actions of Talibaan

can not be a blot on Mohammed." Who knows !!

Islam has always been a militant, reactionary religion.

It did create progressive forces of culture that

advanced middle-eastern culture during the early middle

ages, but the fact remains that its roots are

militant. Ditto for Christianity. "" Work is worship. Work

is above all. It gives a person a purpose in life-a

reason to live." Thanks for supporting the message of

Gita." I am glad you think like that. But work will be

fruitful only when you can take away the class nature of

it. "Seems you are infatuated with communism...please read

"Law of survival of the fittest" by

Darwin..." Thanks for supporting the very statement you were

contadicting Darwin's laws are general laws of

nature. They apply as much to social relations as they apply

to the evolution of species. The nature of

society is also selective like that of evolution. If

you apply the same dialectics to society, you will

see that capitalism and capitalists as a class

evolved by way of the theory of natural selection of

Darwin. As the forces of production evolve, one class

usually gains control over the means of production and

distribution in a society. That is Darwin's law of natural

selection as it applies to society. I suggest you read

the 'Origins of Species' As for communism,

no one knows the real nature of communism because we

haven't seen it at work yet. The so-called communism

in USSR and China turned out to be utter

failures. "DO you think you are providing for others or that

way even for your own self....seems you are quite

young and have not yet been subject to Nature's

kicks...soon you will see them and your ideas will change we

wil discuss it then." Not at all. If I was

able to provide for everyone, I would not have been

sitting here and writing this. I would have been

relaxing on a sunny beach in the Meditteranean

Everyone is provided for by the 'social product' that a

society produces and its distributions. However, in

the unjust world that we live in, distribution is not

fair. "btw you made this id recently...only to participate

here ?? :)" I have started participating here

recently, but I use this ID for participating in all the

groups I am interested in. And it is not recent. If

you search Yagoo groups, you will find this ID has

existed for some time.

October 23, 2001

I love dialogue. It’s my second most important

tool of growth, the first being direct experience,

through Raja path and karma yoga. That's why on our

club’s home page it states very clearly that we welcome

all, as long as it is done in the spirit of mutual

respect. In fact, to me, one of the most interesting

schools of Hindu philosophy is that of Nyaya Darshan

(<a href=http://www.jiva.org/culture/Metaphysics_Center/nyaya.htm

target=new>http://www.jiva.org/culture/Metaphysics_Center/nyaya.htm</a> ) - the

school where gaining accurate knowledge

is the norm and often argumentative in style. And as

for our rules of debate and dialogue go, cookies

chocolate-chip or otherwise, are very welcome, barbs are umm ok

if you can’t do without it, and personalized insults

to people or other’s faiths are

unacceptable. First, I think the award for eloquence needs to go to

the authors of the quotes, our Omprem and other

members who have the gift of the penmanship. Next, if

expressing my opinions is spreading concepts “I would ask

you to reconsider your views and not to spread

idealistic and non-secular concepts and mislead those who

are just starting this journey.” post 2207, then I

guess you are also spreading un-idealistic and secular

ideas to those who are just starting out on the

journey. ! Having said that let me say I thank

you immensely for presenting your views. As I go

through the conversation, I have to say you remind me an

awful lot of my own self when I was far younger. You

sound as cynical as I used to be, and while I can’t

speak for your experiential background, I can say for

myself that the rampant injustice in society and misuse

of ‘religious’ concepts and ideas had me turned

totally against any form of any of “religion”. Believe

me, you aren’t the first one to “accuse” me of

“spreading idealistic” ideas – all my old college buddies

think I am a traitor to the cause of saving the world

from harmful religious rhetoric. It wasn’t

until much later that I was faced with questions that

no book had answers to, nor did I have anyone to

turn to. I read frantically, as if there was no

tomorrow, and decided to consider “putting on hold” my

limited ideas of science and logic and allowing other

ideas to flow. I realized that science and logic is

limited to the parameters it has already established and

I didn’t want to wait for the field to catch up

before I practiced methods and techniques tried for

ages. The more I practiced the more answers I got, and

while I certainly have a long way to go on this journey

homewards, I know enough to realize that I, together with

others are on the right track. One of the most

freeing things for me to realize is that it is in the

practical application of the spirituality that we can

actually make any gains for ourselves, or the society you

are talking of, truly beyond rhetoric, empty eloquent

words. Books, shastras, shlokas, mantras, concepts,

explanations, real and net gurus etc., which are now so readily

available on the net, are only tools. It is ONLY in its

application that the realization and growth lies. This

realization is purely experiential. How does one describe

love? Are there any words? Is there a theoretical proof

for it? Idealism? Yes. I am an idealistic. I like to

hook my wagon up to a star. Maybe I will be able to

stand up in this lifetime!! I pass on to you

what a friend said to me once, “Don’t throw the baby

with the bath water”. Do continue questioning and

seeking, hammer away, understanding with both your mind

and heart, and reach out for that which calls to your

heart. Use only that which resonates with you, and a

little at a time you too will find the answers you are

looking for. This too, is . As has been

pointed out however, this is not a political club and

that kind of sadhna needs to be taken somewhere else.

Here, lets share our understanding of the fundamental

tools of practice, and how we experience

it! _/\_ Tat

October 23, 2001

Respected Tatwamasi didi, I thank you from the

bottom of my heart for reproducing the quotation from

the famous Zhen (called chan in chinese derived from

the sanskrit word *DhYan*)master Tsung-mi (780-841.)

With all due respects to our bhaiyya Silentopposition

, why was he 'hammering you' away for something

that Tsung-Mi wrote? Salaam !!!!

October 24, 2001

Greetings, Oh I didn't realise it was a

quote from Zung Mi. Tatwamasi's message did not say

so and I assumed those were her own words. And I

was not 'hammering' her as a person, but I was

hammering the idea that was being presented in that

piece. I guess only ideas matter in a group like this and

not individual persons, because no one uses their

names anyway !!

October 24, 2001

Greetings Tatwamasi, Thanks for your

message. Please take a moment to go thru my comments below. I do

have some questions for you that you can answer based

on what you have said. "post 2207, then I

guess you are also spreading un-idealistic and secular

ideas to those who are just starting out on the

journey. ! :)" LOL The reason I "accused"

<evil grin/> you of spreading idealistic and

non-secular ideas was because the discussion was on the

subject of karma and I had expressed the opinion that

karma does not explain the the progress of human

civilisation to the present times, neither does it offer any

'path' to how the problems of the present times are to

be solved. Thus, I said it was idealistic. It is

non-secular because it believes in the divine and

re-incarnation, etc. That apart, I am perfectly open to

any kind of idea or theory that claims to explain

these issues, even if I am not familiar with that

religion. In the past decade or so, I have seen the growth of

lots of these 'alternative paths', such as the Church

of Scientology, Suka Gakai and others and frankly,

this worries me. "You sound as cynical as I

used to be, and while I can’t speak for your

experiential background, I can say for myself that the rampant

injustice in society and misuse of ‘religious’ concepts and

ideas had me turned totally against any form of any of

“religion”." May I ask you what turned you *away* from those

views. What was it that made you give-up the path of social

and common good and, instead, concentrate on the

individual level. I hope I am not asking too personal a

question but from your post it seems that earlier (in your

"younger" days <evil grin/>) you had concern for the

social evils and the will to make a difference, and now

you advocate and concentrate on religious ideas and

saadhna and bhakti, which are essentially un-social and

highly individualistic in character. "It wasn’t

until much later that I was faced with questions that

no book had answers to, nor did I have anyone to

turn to." Again, may I ask what those questions

were? Of course, I may not be able to answer them, but

someone else on the group might be able to (unless

everyone is rigid in the path of religion). "One of

the most freeing things for me to realize is that it

is in the practical application of the spirituality

that we can actually make any gains for ourselves, or

the society you are talking of, truly beyond

rhetoric, empty eloquent words." Can you give

examples of such application? If you have applied them

yourself can you give instances where bhakti and saadhna

and religious ideas helped root out the causes of

suffering and exploitation even for *one* *single*

individual. I would be very interested. I rather believe

that it is only revolution (followed by reform) that

has always changed social

relations. "Idealism? Yes. I am an idealistic." Un oh !! you

seem to have misunderstood my meaning of idealism.

What you mean is a dreamer. You are a dreamer and

so am I. We all dream of a world free from suffering

where we are all at peace with each other and

nature. By idealism, I had meant ignoring the fact that

objects of nature shape human consciousness, and not the

other way round. Of course, this is a ridicolously

simple way of putting it, and maybe inaccurate. But you

get my meaning. Please share your experiences

about how bhakti and saadhna and religious ideas can

help root out the causes of suffering and

exploitation.

October 25, 2001

Blessed Self, silentopposition You claim

that "we need to constantly examine and query the

*source* and conditions that produce our thought, rather

than focus on the thought." It seems for your

posts that this is what you expect others to do. But

should you not also follow your own advice and enquire

into the conditions that cause you to hold the views

that you hold? Perhaps it is your perception of events

that is in error and leading to you make the claims

that you do. The stridency of your claims suggests

that you yourself do not have a profound belief in

them or the accuracy of the perceptions that gave rise

to them. This is not to say that all of those

views are in error but only ask you to do what you ask

us to do -- continually reexamine your own beliefs

and those perceptions that gave rise to your

beliefs. The Jnana Yogis hold four perceptions, the

Mahavakyas, to be the basis for the individual soul to

understand and flawlessly identify with the Supreme

Soul: 1. Prajnanam Brahma, Consciousness is Brahman. 2.

Aham Brahma Asmi, I am Brahman. 3. Tat Twam Asi,

That Thou Art 4. Ayam Atma Brahman, This Self is

Brahman. Interestingly, considering how this thread started, Tat Twam Asi

is the most important proclamation. The guru

initiates the disciple into the knowledge of Brahman

through this proclamation, for it is the one that gives

rise to the other three. Yours in the enquiry

into Truth. omprem P.S. If my posts seem

a little didactic in tone, it is probably because

my role for the last 18 years has been to be a

teacher of yoga/vedanta and meditation.

October 25, 2001

Greetings OmPrem, I thank you for

reminding that everyone, including me, needs to constantly

re-examine our views and refine them. I *think* I try and

do that all the time. But, like most other people, I

do fall prey to the circumstances and situations

around me. During the last several years, I have

gradually developed the set of core ideas on which I focus

(none of them 'original' <g>) and I constantly

look for empirical evidence to either validate them,

or modify them, or discard them altogether. There

have been times when I have discarded some ideas, or

philosophies that did not seem to explain the course of human

civilisation and the progress of human thought. "The

stridency of your claims suggests that you yourself do not

have a profound belief in them or the accuracy of the

perceptions that gave rise to them." As for the

stridency, I have been equally inundated with this barrage

of posts saying that I am a Naxalite, or a communist

or some other 'ist'. I found several members too

reluctant or rigid to accept a difference of opinion. Or

get reactionary. Seems to indicate to me that the

basis of their ideas do not stand on legs of empirical

historical evidence, but on its head. My intention is to

participate in discussions by which I can examine my views

and revise/modify them. As I said in a couple of

earlier posts, my mind searches for answers, not relief

from the present circumstances. I come here to find if

religion, or spirituality, has answers. And solutions to

the ills facing mankind. In a post yesterday,

Tatwamasi said that based on her experiments with

spirituality, she is convinced that this is the right

path. I asked her a set of questions that I am very

interested in-about the nature of spirituality and her

successes with it. I am still waiting eagerly for her

reply because that will answer, I hope, several of my

questions about spirituality and its relevance to present

society. "P.S. If my posts seem a little didactic in tone, it is

probably because my role for the last 18 years has been to

be a teacher of yoga/vedanta and

meditation." And I have been a social worker, reformist,

struggling against the beaureacracy and corporate interests.

So excuse the scepticism and occassional bitterness

in my messages.

karma

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