Hinduism not for Westerners?

October 15, 2001

I surf hinduism.about.com quite a bit, and I've

come across this topic on there a couple of times now.

I wanted to show the members here, and get some

opinions. This subject is, obviously, close to my heart as

I am a Westerner

myself. <a

href=http://forums.about.com/n/main.asp?webtag=ab-hinduism&nav=messages&lgnF=y&m\

sg=86.1

target=new>http://forums.about.com/n/main.asp?webtag=ab-hinduism&nav=messages&lg\

nF=y&msg=86

..1</a> What do you think? Om Shanti Erica

October 16, 2001

Hi Erica, I have actually gained an

enormous amount myself from the book mentioned in the

original post. I got it from the library, but when I can

afford it I shall buy a copy (have been buying too many

books as usual!). At times, I have indeed felt that it

will never be possible for me as a European woman to

fully grasp what it means to be Hindu; however, books

like this one explore the incredible, exciting

diveristy of Hinduism, the intricate variation from village

to village, household to household, individual to

individual. In other words, the fact that there is no 'real',

'true', single notion of what it is to be a

Hindu. Part of the accessibility of this path is its freedom

from dogma, the very lack of 'you should' and 'you

must'; however, I suppose that for many people raised in

a Judeo-Christian culture, this in itself may seem

confusing and frightening. Eek! Where is the one

authoritative book? Where is the simple list of rules to live

by? Also, many Westerners are used to

thinking of 'religion' in terms of something which is

communicated or dictated to them by an authoritative

intermediary - a priest, a chaplain, a rabbi etc - and it

requires a whole different mindset to make personal

choices about whom, how, when, where to worship, to take

responsibility for your own interaction with your God. I

suppose in a way I am lucky, having been raised in a

completely irrelgious family, as I had fewer preconceptions

to begin with. Just my random

thoughts! Padma

October 16, 2001

Blessed Self, Erica Hinduism takes in all,

respects all, embraces all, without judgement, without

reservation. If a westener wants to understand Hinduism, he or

she should move past the supposedly different deities

and the different forms of ritual worship and seek an

understanding of advaita vedanta, the underpinnings of

Hinduism. A start could be made with reading the Vedas, the

Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita, Patanjalis's Raja Yoga Sutras.

For a westerner to understand fully the basis of

Hinduism, he or she should seek an enlightened master for

guidance. When all said and done, that spiritual aspirant may

well end up with an renewed and vastly more profound

understanding of their first religion. He or she will

understand that while religions different greatly in their

public face, all religions and spiritual paths come

together in their mystic depths. The Jewish Kabbalist, the

Islamic Sufi and the Christian contemplative orders all

have the same vision, the same practices, the same

experiences and use the same language (literally) even to the

use of the same metaphors. There is no difference

between any of these and a Self-Realized Hindu or Sikh.

They are One. Other than the occassional

cultural reference, there is no difference between reading

the writings of a 16th century Spanish female saint

such as St. Theresa of Avila or the writings of a 20th

Hindu saint such as Swami Sivananda. So delve in

the basis of Hinduism. You may become a practicing

Hindu or make a profound reconnection with the religion

of your culture or family. In any event, the result

will be the same. You will forsake ego and judgement,

gain wisdom and become One with God or

Brahman. Om namah Sivaya Omprem

October 16, 2001

Thank you all for your thoughtful

replies. I did not write my opinion on this matter in my

original post on purpose; I wanted to see what others had

to think about this. I agree with the

majority here. I have found nothing but love and

compassion since embarking on this journey seriously over a

year ago. I've realized that it is me feeling odd in

the community, not the other way around! Just like

anything, persistence and sincerity are key in feeling

comfortable and having others feel comfortable with your

presence. Personally, I feel comfortable with my

beliefs and my way of life. I feel I have finally found

the place where I belong -- or rather, it found me.

It is not a community or people that do this, it is

a feeling of HOME inside of my soul. I have not

changed. I have only become *myself*. Just as your

place of birth does not define your person, your place

of birth can not define one's "religion". I have an

overwhelming desire to know God, and this is what leads me.

Om Shanti Erica

October 16, 2001

Hindusim is not a religion per se as we all know.

It is a lifestyle, a culture, a way of life, which

has developed over millineums, and is constantly

evolving. It is made up of practices that have developed

over literally thousands of years, encompassing allll

the paths of Union with the Truth. The various

periods in its history, has seen varying

period-appropriate practices changing according to the times. Some

practices which were eternal, remained a constant factor

throughout, and is slowly being brought to our notice through

archeological discoveries. Some pratices, though obsolete,

still remain as artifacts in the museums of cultural

history. In fact the term "Hinduism" is a name

given by the outside world to the life and practices of

the people who lived in the land of the river Indus

(Indus Valley Civilization) and called them "Hindus".

The land where they lived was called Hindusthan

(staan= place, land). It denotes a geographical boundary.

The British colonists later called the region

"India", as they brought the western world into the

subcontinent. The original name used for the culture was

Sanatan Dharma (Eternal laws of life). It is hard

to "learn" culture, from books or people and

typically has to grow within it. That is why there is no

traditional concept of conversion into the "religion". Anyone

who adopts the lifestyle, identifies with it and

grows with it is a Hindu. The practices, of course,

include the full range, from worship rituals to advait

and yoga practice and philosophy, and like all

"Hindus" one accepts some aspects and not others. Even

those who are atheists or those who ridicule the

religion are included in the folds. There is no need for

proseletizing or a competition for numbers. The only

"conversion" is for those who choose a monastic lifestyle, but

this change is for all, including born-Hindus. To be a

monk, even Hindus have to go through a ceremonies

including (one's own funeral ceremoney) to symbolize the

death of the ego self (the physical) and birth of the

Self. Overwhelming demand from those who

identify with conversions and those some of those who

formed groups and schools perhaps has perhaps led to the

creation of procedures for such conversion, and various

rituals have evolved. The only ones I am familiar with

are those by ISKON and some through the Hindu

Organization in Hawaii. I am amused when some of my friends

here ask me, "If you don't convert how will you grow

and become bigger?" Guess the "hindu" forefathers,

even those who attempted to give it some degree of

organization (Shankaracharya), didn't visualize capitalism in

religion. An "American" disciple of Maharishi answered when

I posed this question to him, "Hinduism is the

grandfather of all religions. No one needs to be converted

into something they already are". Can

westerners feel "Hindu"? You bet! I have "western" friends

who are more "hindu" than perhaps even myself. It

simply takes identifying, with a process of thinking and

a set of natural spiritual laws, a willingness to

understand, and a fundamental trust that there is a purpose

to it all. The explanations will come all in good

time, when the time is deemed right by the

Universe. I end with a story of one of my husband's

colleague. He was saying, how much he wanted to go back and

live in India again, and how his childen too would

drop everything and go if they had an opportunity

again. I asked him about the inconveniences, the

inconsistencies, the paradoxes, the material problems, the

politics etc etc. His answer was, "but if you love India

none of that matters. That is not the spirit of India

anyway". I had tears in my eyes. Having being social

activist of sorts, I had to come 10,000 miles away to

understand that aspect of "Hindu - sthan". Love to

all _/\_ Tat twam asi UMa

October 16, 2001

Greetings, I beg to differ from the

majority here. Hinduism, and other oriental

religions, have had such a profound attraction for

Westerners because of their disabusement with

Christianity. The 'hijack' of the institutions of Christianity,

namely the Church, by the ruling monarchies (during the

middle ages and the late middle ages) and by the

controllers of government and power at present times, have

drawn Westerners to seek solace and emotional

fulfillment in other-more

exotic-religions. Particularly Hinduism and Buddhism. Hinduism is

seen by

Westerners as less controlled and less manipulated by the

ruling classes. However, the fact is that Hinduism,

like any other mainstream religion, has long fallen

prey to manipulation by the controllers of

power. It is as much a corrupted and tainted religion as

any other. Hinduism as a way of life exists only

as an abstract concept, an ideal-as far removed from

real existence as anything can be. The common folk

of India, like common folks in all other countries,

spend most of their time figuring where their next meal

is going to come from. To come back to the

original question-I don't think Hinduism offers anything

that any other religion does not offer. It does not

make anyone more or less liberated than any other

religion. Fulfillment and 'karma' is to be found within oneself, not by

choosing one religion over another. Particularly one so

corrupted and manipulated by different groups over the

centuries that its present form bears no resemblance to its

ideals. All this is of course IMHO.

October 17, 2001

(This is why I wanted to bring up the

subject!) Good sir... Thank you for going against the

grain and posting your opinions here. First, can

you please define the word "disabusement"? I

attempted to look it up in the dictionary, but I have not

been able to find a definition. Thank

you. Second, I understand where you are coming from on this

point. However -- speaking as someone that was raised in

a Byzantine Catholic family -- I did not stumble

into Hinduism while searching for something "exotic".

I came to this path because I never felt satisfied

with the information and the way of thinking I was

being presented. The theories and commandments and

logic behind the Catholic way of life (because, let's

face it, *all* religions strive to be a way of life

rather than just something one thinks of on Sunday

morning) never filled my need or even made sense to me at

all. Thirdly, I can appreciate what you're

saying in regards to Hinduism having fallen "prey to

manipulation by the controllers of power". There are negative

aspects to everything in this world. Good and bad, I

accept the true essence of the path. My sister

worked at a family-run coffee shop, and the family just

happens to be Baptist. This is fine, as we were raised

not to think of people as a skin color or class or

religion. My sister's bosses would continueally tell her

that she was wrong for her beliefs, and she should

come to their church, and that if she didn't she would

be going to hell, and they did not believe in

dancing or singing. However, when I was in high school I

went to an Episcopalian church with a then-friend of

mine and felt very accepted. They have women priests,

and allow gay marriages. These are two ends of a very

broad spectrum, yet these groups both follow The Bible.

My point is, words are subject to interpretation.

Words have limited control over helping us to

understand, and sometimes the more words we use, well, the

less effective they become and the more distorted they

become over time. Have you ever played the game

"Telephone"? Om Shanti Erica

October 17, 2001

Greetings Erica, First of all, sorry for

having 'coined' a "new" word !! The word is actually

'disabuse', which is a transitive verb. This is what

the Merriam-Webster has to say about

disabuse: "Main Entry: dis·abuse Pronunciation:

"di-s&-'byüz Etymology: French désabuser, from dés- dis- + abuser to

abuse 1611 : to free from error, fallacy, or

misconception" Religion, like everything else, evolves over a period of

time out of a cycle of conception, misconception and

the resolution of that misconception. What I

say here is by no means original. The genesis of this

idea is the same Hegelian concept of evolution of

ideas. However, in deviation from that, I would say that religion

evolves, not because someone someday "finds a better

idea", but because the existing ideals of religion

become so far removed from reality that it does not

serve the purpose and does not provide any emotional

and social fulfillement to its followers. All

religions have evolved this way, including

Christianity. The 'disabuse-ment' of people with the Catholic form

of Christianity gave rise to the Protestant

form. Similarly, all the other flavours of Christinaity arose and

evolved because some or the other social group/class

could not equate their religion with their social goals

and ambitions. Examples: the rise of

Presbyterian and other flavours of Christianity during the

late middle ages and the English civil war era can be

traced back to the rising aspirations and ambitions of

the different social groups and classes during those

times and their socio-political ambitions. Over

a period of the next few hundred years, several

other strains emerged from those

religions. [Contd...in another message. word limit D'oh]

October 17, 2001

[....contd from previous message in same

thread] Thus, the cycle of religious evolution is: 1.

Disenchantment and dissatisfaction of certain groups/classes of

people with a particular religion or religious

order. 2. Forming of a variant, or a different flavour of

the religion, or forming the idea of an entirely new

religion. 3. Establishing the religious institutions and

religious orders of this new religion. 4. Acceptance

of these new religious institutions by the common

people and, over time, a firm entrenchment of these

institutions into the social fabric. 5. With these

institutions becoming more and more significant vis-a-vis the

society, and the controllers of these institutions bearing

more and more influence over its followers, a gradual

corruption and manipulation of these institutions by the

ruling elite of the society. 6. An extreme stage

where these so-called religious institutions are

weilded exclusively for and by the dominant classes and

groups in the society, to the exclusion and expolitation

of the other masses. 7. Return to 1, and so

on throughout history and to the present

day. Point 2 in the above cycle is important. Disenchantment

with a particular religious institution can lead to

either a branching off of that religion, or the

establishment of a new religion altogether. For example,

the establishment of Protestantism is an example of

branching off from Catholic Christianity, whereas the

emergence of Buddhism is an example of a new religion

emerging because of the problems existing with the

existing predominat religion (Hinduism, in this

example). It is very easy to trace this cycle by following

this example. Hinduism, at that point in History,

was dominated and expolited by the ruling

classes-namely the Kshtriya and the Brahaman classes. That

gave rise to Buddhism as a new and fresh religion-a

welcome break from the corrupt and tainted institutions

of Hinduism. It attracted a lot of followers,

right from India to Sri Lanka in the South and to Japan

and Thailand in the far east. However, over a

period of several 1000 years, Buddhism itself had become

so corrupted that two distinct branches

arose-Mahayana and Hinayana. Later on, several other

arose, such as Theravada and Vajrayana. Each of these

is now in such a decadent stage that people are once

again crying out for changes. Coming back to

Hinduism, it has long ago outlived its appeal and its

significance in modern society. The only form of Hindusim

that we see now is the militant form and the

impoverished form. The militant form is the one in

which certain groups, mainly in India, are ready to

take-up arms in a reactionary defense of Hindusim against

Christianity and Islam. The impoverised form in the one in

which rituals are strictly followed by people in the

lower strata of the society. It has no, or at best a

symbolic, significance for most other people. Mind you,

these two forms are still important in sustaining it.

These militant groups are the present day version of

the militant sadhus and warriors who protected the

Indian subcontinent from the Islamic invasion. All

Hindus owe a lot to them. Otherwise, Hinduism and Indian

culture, as we know it today, would not have existed, but

for these brave groups. However, Hinduism, as

a religion, has far outlived its significance in

modern society. For that matter, most other religions

have. Religion, as we all know it today is simply an instrument

used to control the minds of people and make them

believe that there are powers beyond the body.

October 17, 2001

Respected tatwamasi, Thank you for writing

in such details. All religions are developed

on faith. And the faith depends not only on the

family back ground, Place, Education and culture of the

personbut also on the Karma of his previous birth and

Mind. With regards. jyotishguru

October 18, 2001

Blessed Self, silentopposition Your

characterization of how religions can disagree with each other and

how different sects of a religion can spring up

reminds me of a joke: There was a Christian and a

Hindu having a debate about religion. Naturally, the

debate soon degenerated into a contest about whose

religion was the best. The Christian said, "God

speaks to us. We live by His Word. The universe lives by

his Word. Don't forget that 'In the beginning was the

Word.' " The Hindu said, "That is all very

interesting. But we know what that Word is. It is

AUM." These two fellow spiritual

travellers could have saved

themselves a lot of stress and karma if their conversation

had been more co-operative and sattvic instead of

adversarial. For example: The Christian said, "In Exodus

3:14 God said unto Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM.' "

The Hindu replied, "I agree. So Ham."

Both the joke and the example demonstrate that while

the public face of the religion is different and

sometimes adversarial, all religions are based on the same

immutable Truth that is open to all those who approach

their religion and their fellow man with openness,

serenity, equinimity and a longing for God. Paths

are many but Truth is One. Paths are many but God

is One. Om namah Sivaya Omprem

October 18, 2001

I agree that the way different religions fight

amongst themselves is nothing but a joke. However, I

think that this is inherent in the nature of religion

itself, and not just a particular religion. Religion

and spiritualism drives one away from reality and

secularism. It makes people concentrate on life beyond this

world, beyond this mind and body and to dominate the

'worldly' with the 'unworldly". Since religion has

arisen from class societies like the vedic Indian

society and the tribal socities (in the case of Islam) it

breeds conflict. All religion is a representation of

conflict. I agree with a previous poster that spiritualism is

a different, albeit related, aspect of

religion. However, spiritualism is non-secular in character and

abstracts the realities of the world, abstracts the reasons

for conflict, pain, suffereing and war. It

prevents you from seeing what is behind the veil of

religious and cultural ideas. In essense, it prevents you

from exploring the real causes of conflicts, suffering

and dissatisfaction. It also makes a person

inward-looking and individualistic. In a related thread,

a poster said that she considers love for all

fellowmen as a way of life. I agree with this. Love and

compassion are above all religion. The powers and bonds of

compassion should transcend all religion and should be the

unifying factor in civilisation.

October 18, 2001

Religion is nothing but a joke. Your post

reminded me of a joke. A man went to the Post

Office to buy stamps for Christmas cards. "What

denomination?" asked the clerk. "Oh, good heavens! Have

we come to this?" said the man, "Well, give me 50

Catholic and 50 Baptist ones."

Who is

sivananda? I never heard of such a saint.

what does Prem mean? your dasa

October 18, 2001

Blessed Self, silentopposition Guru Nanak,

the founder of the Sikh religion or spiritual path,

would agree with you when you say, "Love and compassion

are above all religion. The powers and bonds of

compassion should transcend all religion and should be the

unifying factor in civilisation." Guru Nanak

phrased it this way: " Truth is greater than everything

but higher still is true living." True living

is to live as one's authentic Self, to live in love

and compassion, and to live with the grace of Brahman

flowing through you. True living entails that the

aspirant strive to cultivate serenity, compassion,

equanimity, fearlessness, openness and egolessness. Anger,

desire, emotions, dry intellect, ego, judgement and

over-reliance on the senses are all barriers to true

living. It is not the religions that are flawed, it is some

of the practitioners of those religions who are

flawed and have a flawed understanding of their

religion. Om namah Sivaya Omprem

October 18, 2001

Dear Silentopposition, In your post you

state, that 'spiritualism' - although I originally

raised the concept od spirituality, subtly different -

'prevents you from seeing what is behind the veil of

religious and cultural ideas ... [and] from exploring the

real causes of conflicts, suffering and

dissatisfaction. It also makes a person inward-looking and

individualistic.' I have to disagree, in that I feel having an active

spiritual dimension balances my political and social

awareness. In the past, I have become very depressed by my

participation in numerous causes to further equality and

respect and to reduce suffering. While I have cated

passionately about these causes, I have tended to become worn

down by the feeling of my efforts being nothing more

than 'a drop in the ocean'. At the moment, I

feel that paying attention to my spiritual needs helps

me to survive better, to allow me to retain my love

and compassion without becoming overburdened by the

amount of pain and inequity in the world. Otherwise,

each time I see an act perpetrated which is utterly

without such compassion, I feel pained

myself. Just the viewpoint of an Englishwoman inclined to

depression Padma

October 19, 2001

Thanks, Prem! You like my joke. I have

many. Once, a catholic priest, a Rabbi, and a Mullah

were bathing in a river. They did not have their

swimming trunks on. Just then some ladies passed by. The

catholic priest and the Mullah rushed to cover their

'private parts' but the Rabbi covered his 'face.' the

other two were surprised to see this. So, the mulllah

asked, " why on earth, are you covering your face.?" The

Rabbi replied, " my dear, those are the ladies from my

synagogue. They will recognize my face before they recognize

my "privates" . I will check out the site you

mentioned. But, I use the library to surf the web I am only

allowed one hour. Brother Prem, I am homeless and

penniless. I used to be a Liftman in wtc. now no job. no

food. I go to sikh temple . They serve poori, chana and

halwa. I luv that. i will say- om om om . prem

prem prem prem. divine love. i luv love .

Hinduism not for Westerners?

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