Questions !!

[Guest guest]

It was nice to join the chat and share thoughts

with some great souls! But due to limited time and

space, certain things were left incomplete.<br><br>

There were some interesting thought put forward by

padma,siva, erica, babu and SVCS and it put forth some

important questions which need to be discussed before

working on our sadhna.<br><br>=> Is there a free will

of ours as human beings?<br> Do we have any control

over our karma ? Or<br> everything is predestined

?<br><br>=> Does god give signal to us to attract us on <br>

the path of spirituality? Who receives the <br>

signal and who not ? why demon like Angulimaal<br> got

Buddha to change his life and why a dacoit<br> like

Ratnakar got God's help and became a saint<br> why some

bad souls get such immense help and<br> why some

people struggle all life and get<br>

nothing?<br><br>=> what and who decides that we are ready for

the<br> Great change ?<br><br>= >What should be done

to make us tuned to God's<br> signals ?<br><br>=>

Is karma more powerful than God ? who decides<br>

our fate God or karma ?<br><br> Any thoughts dear

friends ??<br><br>Hari Aum

[Guest guest]

>>Is there a free will of ours as human

beings?<br>Do we have any control over our karma ?

Or<br>everything is predestined ?<<<br><br>This can be best

answered by the following passage from "Reflections" by

Paul Brunton, a devotee of Bhagavan Ramana

Maharshi.<br><br>Q. Can destiny (karma) ever come to an

end?<br><br>A. Karmas carry in themselves the seeds of their own

destruction.<br><br>Note: Karma is the destiny created for oneself by one's

free actions. In actions are included thoughts and

sensations, motives, good or bad emotions, etc. While working

out an old destiny one is bound to create a new one

by the manner in which one reacts to its operation.

Here then comes the place of free will. We are not

free to alter the trend of an old Karma, for example,

in the choice of our parents, country, the

circumstances of our birth and environments; of our physical

and mental fitness and abilities. These are forced on

us : we cannot change them. What we can change is

the manner in which we receive and work them out. We

are all agreed that there are many things in which

the decision lies in our hands : the decision is

ours, the action is ours, the motive behind the action

is ours, the mental attitude with which we do the

action is ours too. This often is the field in which we

are allowed freedom of will, and it contains the

seeds of our future destiny. We can shape that destiny

as we will, and if like most people, we are not

aware of this truth, we allow ourselves to be carried

away by our impulses. We shall eventually land in

worse trouble than we are in already. Most often the

new karma does not follow on the heel of the one

which is being worked out now, so that we drag the

chain of our slavery through several

lives.<br><br> Here the salutary precepts of the Scriptures come to

our rescue to make us rectify our views on life and

our attitude towards others. These and the persistent

knocks of the destiny gradually soften our impulses,

modify our outlooks, sharpen our intellect, and slowly

but surely turn us into seekers; then into yogis; and

finally into full fledged jnanis, when karma ceases.

Jnana totally annihilates it. Let us not forget that

all these improved changes - or evolution - take

place not in the man himself, but in the faculties

which are superimposed on him, that is, in his views

and actions. <br><br> Jnana is thus brought about by

a good karma, generated by a good free will, which

is the result of persistent suffering from a bad

karma, generated by a bad free will. Karma is like an

inanimate machine, which yields up what you put into it.

That is why the master begins his Upadesa Saram with

the statement that karma is jada, insentient,

unintelligent. What makes it move and act as stern destiny is

the energy generated by the exercise of our free

will.<br><br> It may be asked that if a persistently bad free will

caused by the embitterment resulting from a persistently

bad karma bring about a worse karma, which drags us

down and down, where is the change of our ever coming

up to the surface again? We must not forget the

saving Grace of suffering and the inherent purity of our

nature, which will not permit us to remain for ever

insensible to degradation and misery : we cannot for ever

remain sunk in bottomless ignorance and never attempt to

climb up to freedom. Suffering and the intense urge to

return to ourselves act as flats and buoy us up from the

depths of this vast ocean of samsara. Thus the action of

karma through suffering gives the impetus to Jnana

which destroys karma. This is what Bhagavan means by "

karma carries in itself the seeds of its own

destruction. " <br><br><br>Hari Aum !!!

[Guest guest]

Thanks Munmun for replying to my question. It was

a very wise piece of post and it can clear many

doubts.<br><br> Now should a sadhka, for example a Krishna lover,

expect that Krishna will remove his obstacles, and will

nullify his old bad karma ? Is it true that sadhnaa can

save us from the fruits of bad karma ?<br><br> If not,

then does it mean Karma is more powerful than Krishna

?<br><br> What would u reply munmun; and you Mirabai?<br>

<br>Hari Aum<br><br>silentsoul

[Guest guest]

Greetings SilentSoul,<br><br>Hope I am not

'butting' into a discussion I am not part of-you had asked

only a couple of people to answer.<br><br>My

perspective on this is: I need something to explain why karma

does not apply to everybody?<br>Why do we see so [so]

many people around us every day who 'do' "bad karma"

and then get away with it as sweet as

whistle.<br>People cheat, deceive, lie and exploit others.<br>The

very same people will then give a few cents (or

paisas) donation to the charities or the religious

institutions in the hope that they are "washing" away their

bad karma.<br>And they never seem to have to

pay/repent their bad karma !!<br>They prosper and enrich

themselves, while other people reel under the exploitation of

such 'karm-yogis'.<br>How do you explain the lack of

uniformity or fairness in karma?

[Guest guest]

The Law of Karma operates in its own rhythm,

governed by the laws of physics which in turn govern

energy. In my understanding, Krishna or Devi do not

interfere in that aspect of nature; thier role in our lives

is to hold our hands as we make our way through the

path of ignorance into the knowledge of our True

Selves.<br><br>Yes, the 'karma carries within it the seeds of its

destruction', just as ignorance carries within it the seeds of

its removal. Whether the seeds germinate or rot,

depends on the nurturing it gets. Water, nutrition, light

(prana), environment - that is both cleansed of weeds and

others destructive to its growth, and encouraged with

that which complements it development (satsangh) - all

play a role in how the seeds germinate and grow and

mature. <br><br>So we say we have free will to choose

whether or not to nurture those seeds or let them be. But

isn't the question going back to the one that was posed

before? If ALL is determined by our karmic actions, even

what choices we make, then I don't see any free will

operating. If a tamasic condition that prevents one from

making a sattwic choice is determined by past baggage,

then where does the free will fit it? Is the whole

idea of free will merely the ego's oportunity to raise

its head and say "i" have some control??!!!

<br><br>On the other hand if we can understand the role of

free will and choice in the making of Karma, we have

an important tool for our growth. Just as ignorant

actions lead to negative experiences, good actions lead

to the creation of good experinces. If we can mess

up, we can get out of the mess too -through the

powers of creation that are within our nature. We can

then use the power of our intention (sankalpa), and

will ourselves to make changes in our actions that

create positive karma, or for some, go beyond karma

itself.<br><br>This is an extremely important issue to clarify,

though I'm not sugggesting that it is a simple task.

Because of a confusion of its principles the general

comnunity often disagrees with it and loses out on being

able to truly use the powerful tool of creative karmic

forces towards their benifit, remain embedded in a

tamasic life, and remain cynical often militant about its

concepts, use and applications. <br><br>I know there are

many members among us who sit on the sidelines

listening who feel as strongly about the concepts as our

silentopposition does. We have successful Karma Yogis among us who

see these concepts as holding people back instead of

helping the downtrodden get up and move on. <br><br>As

sadhaks it is important to assist/trigger the process of

finding answers and that is what I encourage our members

to do. I request our many, many senior and wise

members to participate and share some thoughts on this

very valuable discussion. <br><br>"Do unto others as

you would others do unto you". Not as others have

already done to you. I feel, that if members can keep

blanket, over-generalized judgements and assumptions

towards and about other's beliefs, we can can a very

fruitful discussion that can trigger important changes in

our lives.<br><br>Yeah... I remain an idealist. ALL

manifestations begin with a dream. <br><br>Now it's my turn to

ramble .. hoping it will trigger important thoughts in

all!<br><br>_/\_ Tat twam asi<br><br>Uma

[Guest guest]

I think that if we expect for Krishna to remove

our obstacle without us taking any action to do so

ourselves, the removal will not take place. Krishna holds

us, loves us, pushes us forward and yes, sometimes

even laughs at us (lovingly of course) as we strive to

live in this physical world. Sometimes, if the beloved

krishna nullifies our karma, we may not have learned the

lesson we needed to learn. So I look to him as my

teacher--sometimes i cry to him "why?", sometimes i lay at his feet

and beg his counsel, sometimes I feel his arms around

me in my desperate times. But I beleive Krishna,

although it may pain him, may allow us to go thru some

nasty karmas. I do believe however that my beloved one

is with me, through the bad, the good, the learning,

the growing, as ALL is him....including the happy and

sad, the good and bad, the ups and downs and I truly

believe he will never leave or desert us. Krishna is all

powerful, karma is a fact of life, as cause and effect

surround us daily. Is karma more powerful? no, only if we

believe it so, and then, are we not turning our backs on

our beloved?<br>Would he do the same to us? never

)<br>Krishna is mischeivous, one can wonder if he puts some of

these obstacles in front of us himself :)What a joy it

is to have him love us that much <br>in love,

mirabai

[Guest guest]

<<<br>: I need something to explain why

karma does not apply to everybody?<br>>>

<br>karma does apply to everybody. the observer needs to

have the maturity to see through the whole game rather

than a snapshot and assume it as the whole

picture.<br><br><< <br>Why do we see so [so] many people around us

every day who 'do' "bad karma" and then get away with

it as sweet as whistle.<br>People cheat, deceive,

lie and exploit others.<br>>><br>Depends on

what you see. People doing bad or people getting some

bad. It could be both that the mechanics are working

that both are learning in their own ways.<br>The

behaviour is not so easily explaioned given the limitation

of each individual's mind. Each is limited/enabled

by his own attitudes, information, knowledge and

maturity aka wisdome and practice of the knowledge. Given

a chicken, many people see it in many ways, a

tamasik says its his sport, others say that they kill it

for sport and then eat it thereby convincing

themselves that since they satisfied their hunger with it,

their initial attitude twords it does not matter.A

rajasik see it as a think not to worry about, A sathwik

see it as a bird and as an individual. A gnani sees

it as lord in that form.<br><br>Mind being affacted

by so many parameters, your question simply boil

down to the issue of perception. Attitudes, dictate

behaviour and its effects and also how you see the

world.<br><br>Introspection helps a lot. A third party, unselfish observer

status. If you could begin to practice the teachings of

Patanjalis yogasutra, it could perhaps make sense sooner one

day.<br><<<br>The very same people will then give a few cents (or

paisas) donation to the charities or the religious

institutions in the hope that they are "washing" away their

bad karma.<br>>><br>This is illusion. But Karma

is very forgiving just as forgiving as divine lord

you could trust. The job of karma is to taech you the

omnipresence and the untimate truth that so many seek. Only

that the mind is so rigid that karma does what it

takes for the lessons to reach. It hurts for some it is

a pleasure for some, the same event, depending on

how they progress.If the lesson is learnt, the

mistakes are forgiven.<br>Like if you are a first rank

holder all the time and are disciplined, it doesn't make

sense to punish if you forget your homework somedays

unless its an indisciplined delebrate

act.<br><br><<<br>And they never seem to have to pay/repent their bad

karma !!<br>They prosper and enrich themselves, while

other people reel under the exploitation of such

'karm-yogis'.<br>>> <br>This my friend is your

illusion.<br><br><< How do you explain the lack of uniformity or

fairness in karma? >><br>You need to open your eyes

and see. Perception makes a lot of

difference.<br><br>- Seshadri.