A word and its meaning- Karma

[Guest guest]

Dear silentopposition, now you are cracking me

up. I have been in the military. I have been all over

the globe. I have seen wars and taken part in them .

I know what I am talking about. War is no picnic,

man. War is not about Karma or DHARMA. A bunch of

baloney, if somebody told you that. Look at Our war

startegy. Right now, we hear they bombed an afgan hospital

and wounded, killed and maimed so many people. why,?

not an accident, my friend. Deliberate and wanton act

of violence. Why, because our intelligence sources

tell us that 'taliban' is hiding among civilian

population. <br><br>Read this, this blew my mind first time I

read it.<br>"To bring about peace in the world, to

stop all wars, there must be a revolution in the

individual, in you and me. Economic revolution without this

inward revolution is meaningless, for hunger is the

result of the maladjustment of economic conditions

produced by our psychological states - greed, envy, ill

will and possessiveness. To put an end to sorrow, to

hunger, to war, there must be a psychological revolution

and few of us are willing to face that. We will

discuss peace, plan legislation, create new leagues, the

United Nations and so on and on; but we will not win

peace because we will not give up our position, our

authority, our money, our properties, our stupid lives. To

rely on others is utterly futile; others cannot bring

us peace. No leader is going to give us peace, no

government, no army, no country. What will bring peace is

inward transformation which will lead to outward action.

Inward transformation is not isolation, is not a

withdrawal from outward action. On the contrary, there can

be right action only when there is right thinking

and there is no right thinking when there is no

self-knowledge. Without knowing yourself, there is no

peace.<br><br>"To put an end to outward war, you must begin to put

an end to war in yourself. Some of you will nod your

heads and say, "I agree", and go outside and do exactly

the same as you have been doing for the last ten or

twenty years. Your agreement is merely verbal and has no

significance, for the world's miseries and wars are not going

to be stopped by your casual assent. They will be

stopped only when you realize the danger, when you

realize your responsibility, when you do not leave it to

somebody else. If you realize the suffering, if you see

the urgency of immediate action and do not postpone,

then you will transform yourself; peace will come only

when you yourself are peaceful, when you yourself are

at peace with your neighbour."<br><br>dasa Hari (in

no hurrry)

[Guest guest]

Greetings Hari,<br><br>You raise a few very

important and thought-provoking points.<br>Let me try and

explain my position part-by-part.<br><br>In general, I

think this idea makes sense, and is indeed the way

forward. However, it is standing on its head. You need to

invert the idea to arrive at how reform must be

achieved.<br><br>It is true, without any dispute, that first change

must come within one self.<br>We must root out, from

within ourselves, all the ideas, all the ideologies and

all the dogmas that create illusionary ideas like

karma.<br>Once that change comes about, it is the first big step

forward, and perhaps the most difficult one.<br>Right

after that comes the next most difficult step-to

extrapolate that personal awareness and turn it into social

awareness.<br>To join the progressive forces, and not reactionary

forces. To join the forces that actually seek to

eliminate the root causes of exploitation by bringing about

a fundamental change in the economic structure of

society.<br>Once you root that out, all the other elements of

thought, such as religious ideas, individualism, and

idealism will also vanish.<br><br>"War is no picnic, man.

War is not about Karma or DHARMA. A bunch of baloney,

if somebody told you that."<br><br>Bingo !! You are

on the right track.<br>War has nothing to do with

karma. It is a playground for exploitative and

profit-seeking forces.<br><br>"Look at Our war

startegy.....Deliberate and wanton act of violence."<br><br>That is

because the 'coalition against terrorism' isn't a

coalition against terrorism at all. It is a coming together

of profit-seeking and expansionist forces.<br>And I

am not just talking left rhetoric here that doesn't

have empirical proof to stand on.<br>These are real

forces, and real people, with real money and real arms to

sell.<br><br>"Economic revolution without this inward revolution is

meaningless, for hunger is the result of the maladjustment of

economic conditions produced by our psychological states -

greed, envy, ill will and possessiveness."<br><br>This

is the idea that is in the right direction, but is

standing on its head.<br>Let me re-phrase this as

follows:<br><br>"the maladjustment of economic conditions" produces

"hunger and also produces our psychological states -

greed, envy, ill will and possessiveness."<br><br>Let me

also define 'economic conditions'. Economic conditions

are the arrangement of the forces of production and

distribution, that is, the social relations of

production.<br>Because man's consciousness is shaped by the social

relations of production, we see the manifestation of the

defects in the mode of production in the form of

exploitation, greed, usury, profiteering, etc.<br><br>"To put

an end to sorrow, to hunger, to war, there must be a

psychological revolution and few of us are willing to face

that."<br><br>That is only the first step. After that comes the step

of social awakening. Like the ones we saw during the

French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, and other

progresive revolutions.<br><br>"No leader is going to give

us peace, no government, no army, no

country."<br><br>For the simple reason that all these are

institutions-elements in the machinery of our system of

production.<br><br>"If you realize the suffering, if you see the urgency

of immediate action and do not postpone, then you

will transform yourself; peace will come only when you

yourself are peaceful, when you yourself are at peace with

your neighbour."<br><br>It will happen only when you

and your neighbour and everyone else joins in the

effort to overthrow the exploitative regimes and

establishes a more just and more effecient mode of

production.<br>Not replace one exploitative system by another-like

the Russian revolution replaced a feudal system by a

much, much worse and inhuman so-called 'communist'

system.<br><br>BTW, what is the source of the passage you

quoted?<br>I liked the ideas in that passage.

[Guest guest]

Dear silentopposition,<br>have been reading all

your past posts with a lot of attention to understand

what really were you trying to say.<br>""It is true,

without any dispute, that first change must come within

one self.<br>We must root out, from within ourselves,

all the ideas, all the ideologies and all the dogmas

that create illusionary ideas like karma.<br>Once that

change comes about, it is the first big step forward,

and perhaps the most difficult one.""<br><br>The fact

admitted by yourself is quite undeniable, isn't it ? So

why try JUMPING directly to the next "most difficult"

step because the results of such JUMPS are for all to

see in the likes of hitler.<br>May be you are wanting

to discuss this "very important and difficult second

step of extrapolating that personal awareness and turn

it into social awareness"<br>but my friend<br>where

is this 'personal awareness' ???<br>We are all

searching here for this through so many means. Hitler too

had something of it, don't you believe? But surely,

anyone here would like to make very sure first that the

what oneself terms as the personal awareness is not

just a superficial understanding on the lines of

conditioning provided by society or just a reaction(still

worse!) to the same. Hope, you are not telling all to

just go on and do "something" with the society with

this sort of "pro-" or "anti-" conditioned personal

awareness ?<br><br>As you concurred, "rooting out, from

within ourselves, all the ideas, all the ideologies and

all the dogmas that create illusionary ideas like

karma."<br>What happens then?<br>Do you have the first hand

experience of this? If so, please share with us your

experiences of this preliminary step as many of us here are

stuck at this initial hurdle itself. Looking forward to

your post, find them very refreshing.

[Guest guest]

Greeting Really,<br><br>Sorry I missed this post

the first time round.<br>Now that you have reminded

me, let me delve on the issues

here:<br><br>First-ideologies.<br>All ideologies spring from the economic

conditions

prevalant in that historical epoch.<br>You mentioned

Hitler-so let me use him as an example, although any other

ideology will serve equally well.<br>The ideology of

Fascism/Nazism arose from the militant corporate/capitalist

class in Germany after the first world war.<br>The

first world war shattered the ambitions of the German

capitalists and also gave rise to a very strong labour

movement.<br>It was out of this ambition of the German capitalist

class and the need to curb the power of the trade

unionists that the Nazi ideology was born.<br>It had

nothing whatsoever to do with Jews and their dominance of

the German financial world.<br>Have you read 'Mein

Kampf'?<br>In the first few chapters itself you will find how

strongly Hitler condemns the trade unionists and the

social democrats.<br>However, his logic and his

understanding of the forces is poor, to say the least.<br>If

you study the pattern of industrialisation in Japan

during the same time, you will find remarkable

similarities.<br>Tojo and the ambitious industrialists/banking leaders

combined to produce the very same circumstances in Asia as

Hitler and Mussolini did in Europe (compare the invasion

of Manchuria with that of Poland).<br>Before anyone

comments that this is becoming a political commentary and

not a spiritual one, I will stop here and draw

attention to the fact that Nazi ideology has nothing to do

with the quest to improve social relations. Nazism is

a barbaric ideology, and its recent resurgence is a

cause for grave concern.<br>The point of the

illustration was: it is the social conditions of production

and distribution of goods and services in a given

time and place that determines the social

consciousness of the peoples.<br><br>Second-The

Jumps.<br><br>[Contd.... word limit D'oh]

[Guest guest]

you become what you really are That is what

happens - The whole search is keeping you from the goal -

just being - you know you exist - nothing else is

needed - in fact anything else will hide it from you - I

speak from experience.<br><br>Love baba