A word and its meaning- contd (1)

[Guest guest]

Greetings,<br><br>"But now is the question of

putting in practise the so many words passed around. Any

suggestions??"<br><br>Let me use an example to illustrate my approach.<br>I

am going to use a highly controversial example, to

which I guess everyone here will have his/her own

opinion.<br>Let me also say that there is nothing original in

what I am saying here-I take no credit for creating

any kind of theory.<br>These ideas and the theories

have been around since about 100-150 years, and in

some forms, even from the ancient Greeko-Roman

times.<br>It has been known by different names, depending on

its focus and the historical epoch.<br><br>Let me

also say that the example I am going to use is not

going to be like a mathematical one: for two reasons.

<br>First, the study of society and individual is not an

exact science, it is an inexact science.<br>I do dream

of a time when the laws of social science and

individual behaviour are as accurate and enforceable as the

laws of the physical sciences. But at the present

time, they are still inexact sciences.<br>However, make

no mistake, it is a science like any other-with its

own laws and body of evidence.<br>Secondly, there are

so many ramifications and so many other factors in

this study which cannot be isolated like in a chemical

laboratory that everything is not going to be

mathematical.<br><br>Now the example:<br>Lets take the genesis and idea of

greed.<br>Greed is defined as a conscious emotion that demands

more than what one really needs.<br>This emotion

becomes an effective emotion when an individual begins to

govern his/her actions according to this emotion, which

means he/she does something to satisfy this idea of

greed.<br>Why does greed arise?<br>It arises because of the

*physical* conditions of private property in

production.<br>Man's biggest activity and purpose in existence is

production-production of goods and services to satisfy his needs and

wants.<br>The nature of this production, that is the physical

conditions under which production is carried out determines

his consciousness.<br>So, if the means and techniques

of production require a certain institution, in this

case, the institution of private property, man's

consciousness will be shaped by this method.<br>All production

is carried out within the limits of the institution

of private property-whether it is agriculture in a

farm (in which the farm belong to an individual or

family) or a manufacturing industry (in which case the

capital is owned by one or more individuals).<br>An

acquisition of more and more of this institution is required

for production-for agricultre you need more land,

more tools, more chemicals and for manufacturing you

need more and more capital and machinery.<br>This

natural path to acquiring 'more and more' "stuff" to

facilitate production creates greed.<br>[contd....]

[Guest guest]

To me the whole thing sounds like Rubbish.

Forgive me using the word. It sounds like a communist

talking. <br><br>There are six kinds of -ve emotion called

arishadvarga.<br>Kaama - want, lobha - greed, krodha - anger, moha -

attachment, madha - laziness and matsarya -

jelousy.<br><br>All these things create problem with the attitude.

Its not collection of private assets. Some people

have private assets and have the capability to get

more and so they get more. People who judge that

others have more are suffereing from jelousy from their

own incompetence in acheiving what the other is

doing. So in tune with their attitude because they are

slaves to the arishadvarga, in complete or in

partialness, take attitude that hurts others and justify

themselves by fuelling others arisharvargas and at times

kindling the dormant ones.<br><br>These are the reasons

for class conflict. Usually. Exception occur in

certain people having aquired power, being sadistic,

which again is explained before.<br><br>Hope this

helps.<br>The primary issue meditation addresses is to get the

mind from the imbalance of being a slave to the

arishadvargas by awarenss and discrimination. A mind free from

it is better able to understand karma and other

things rather than with the coloured glass.<br><br>-

Seshadri.

[Guest guest]

LOL<br><br>See, that is what I meant by the first

difficult step.<br>The first difficult step is to let go of

the ideas that you have and to be ready and willing

to hear-out a non-conventional idea.<br>Don't reject

an idea just because you don't like its source, or

its tone.<br><br>It took me a lot of time to adjust

to this way of interpreting events.<br>It takes

time, thought and research.<br><br>"It sounds like a

communist talking."<br><br>It is not communist in the sense

most people understand communism.<br>Communism is a

social system. We are not talking of social systems

here.<br>It is often called historical materialism or, more

technically, dialectic materialism.<br>Believe me, I have read

about several contemporary and ancient theories

[although I am no where as knowledgeable as others on this

list], I do believe that the ideas of dialectic

materialism have much more merit.<br>Again I am not claiming

to be an expert in it, neither am I imposing it on

anyone.<br><br>But just think about it.<br><br>"Its not collection

of private assets. Some people have private assets

and have the capability to get more and so they get

more. People who judge that others have more are

suffereing from jelousy from their own incompetence in

acheiving what the other is doing."<br><br>Hmmm....you

totally misunderstood my explanation.<br>Maybe I didn't

explain it well enough.<br>I was not talking of envy or

jealousy. Those emotions are peripheral.<br>In talking

about greed, I meant that greed is a manifestation of

the nature of the institution of private

property.<br>Because production is controlled by private property, the

distribution is also.<br>Production exacts its rewards in the

form of profit and usury.<br>*That* creates

greed.<br><br>The emotions and energies that you mention-I am aware

of them-but they are in the realm of the

mind.<br>They are abstract, not real.<br>I am trying to find

answers and solutions within the realm of reality, not in

the abstract world of thought.<br>When the reality

changes, so does thought.<br>Thought does not lead the

way-real condition does.

[Guest guest]

<<<br>LOL<br><br>See, that is what I meant

by the first difficult step.<br>The first difficult

step is to let go of the ideas that you have and to be

ready and willing to hear-out a non-conventional

idea.<br>Don't reject an idea just because you don't like its

source, or its tone.<br><br>It took me a lot of time to

adjust to this way of interpreting events.<br>It takes

time, thought and research.<br>>><br>Please. I am

not guided by rigidity. I am trying to see the sum of

your posts. <br><br><<<br>It is not communist in

the sense most people understand

communism.<br>Communism is a social system. We are not talking of social

systems here.<br>It is often called historical

materialism or, more technically, dialectic

materialism.<br>Believe me, I have read about several contemporary and

ancient theories [although I am no where as knowledgeable

as others on this list], I do believe that the ideas

of dialectic materialism have much more

merit.<br>Again I am not claiming to be an expert in it, neither

am I imposing it on anyone.<br><br>But just think

about it.<br>>><br>To be honest. I have done

quite some thinking and don't think communism in any

form deserves merrit. Anything that takes away

personal freedom and imposes ideas, is a dead

theory.<br><br><<<br>I was not talking of envy or jealousy. Those

emotions are peripheral.<br>In talking about greed, I

meant that greed is a manifestation of the nature of

the institution of private property.<br>Because

production is controlled by private property, the

distribution is also.<br>Production exacts its rewards in the

form of profit and usury.<br>*That* creates

greed.<br>>><br>From a superficial perspective. All the arishadvargas

are in the mind, but then perception and attitudes

are also in the mind and you see and feel the world

wity mind.<br>These emotions feed attitude which feed

behaviour. It really fits. Its self pity, self righteousness

and self sympathy giuded by arishadvargas that really

gives the colour of "legality under the given

circumstances", making people react with emotion. <br><br>Like I

said meditation addresses this very much. It only

needs practice to see the fruit.<br><br>- Sesahdri.

[Guest guest]

Greetings,<br><br>"To be honest. I have done

quite some thinking and don't think communism in any

form deserves merrit. Anything that takes away

personal freedom and imposes ideas, is a dead

theory."<br><br>I won't get into a debate about alternative

economic systems here. This is not the right forum for

that.<br>E-mail me off-list and we can discuss it

there.<br><br>However, if by communism you mean the Stalinist nightmare

that happened in USSR and the Maoist nightmare that

happened in China, then I agree.<br><br>"From a

superficial perspective. All the arishadvargas are in the

mind, but then perception and attitudes are also in the

mind and you see and feel the world wity

mind."<br><br>I think your statement very clearly and accurately

epitomises the difference between what I am saying and what

you are saying.<br>I liked the way you put it

!!<br>According to my perception, the ideas in your mind are a

reflection of your interaction with external

objects.<br>They don't have any existence of their own-but it

seems as it they do.<br>For example, religion.<br>You

don't see and feel the world with your mind. The

material condition shapes your mind.<br><br>Let us say you

have a sphere. And lets say you have a blank mind.

This is the starting point.<br>You rub your palm on

the surface of the ball. You have interacted with an

external object to produce something (in this case simply

a touch).<br>But some neurological connections were

made within your brain.<br>As you go on using that

object for useful purposes (for example to produce some

food or clothing) your mind is constantly getting

shaped by that real object.<br>You think that your mind

has an independent existence, it has not.<br>It seems

so because different emotions/perceptions are

arising in your mind and they are taking on a form of

their own-like music, religion, etc.<br>Also some of

those interactions are creating conflict.<br><br>Now

extrapolate your mind to be the consciousness of the society

and your interaction with the sphere to be man's

interaction with the means of production and you will see how

the material conditions of production shape

consciousness.<br>There is nothing communist, or capitalist, or any 'ist'

about this, although, this can be used to explain the

rise of economic systems like capitalism, communism,

etc.<br><br>Does this make it any better? Or you still think it is

"rubbish"

[Guest guest]

<<<br>I think your statement very clearly

and accurately epitomises the difference between what

I am saying and what you are saying.<br>I liked the

way you put it !!<br>According to my perception, the

ideas in your mind are a reflection of your interaction

with external objects.<br>They don't have any

existence of their own-but it seems as it they do.<br>For

example, religion.<br>You don't see and feel the world

with your mind. The material condition shapes your

mind.<br><br>Let us say you have a sphere. And lets say you have a

blank mind. This is the starting point.<br>You rub your

palm on the surface of the ball. You have interacted

with an external object to produce something (in this

case simply a touch).<br>But some neurological

connections were made within your brain.<br>As you go on

using that object for useful purposes (for example to

produce some food or clothing) your mind is constantly

getting shaped by that real object.<br>You think that

your mind has an independent existence, it has

not.<br>It seems so because different emotions/perceptions

are arising in your mind and they are taking on a

form of their own-like music, religion, etc.<br>Also

some of those interactions are creating

conflict.<br>>><br><br>Not really. Its not the material impresses the kind

to take position. Its teh mind that intreprets. The

commutative nor the associative law holds good in both the

directions. Its a unidirectional thing here.<br><br>For

example, you identify a sphere as a sphere because the

mind interprets the signals as a sphere. Let me put it

this way you identify a colour green as green because

yu ahve been told its a green. However the mind may

in a difefrent person intrepret the signal as red

signal. Because the individual is told to identify it as

green he will see think it as green. See this is what I

am talking about as perception. No if mind controls

information that you will decide on, because the stimulus is

intrepreted by mind, and the mind takes into other factors

like knowledge, past impressions, opinions etc, its

not the material that dictates, its the mind that

dictates and tell you how it thinks the material looks

like.<br>The Yogasutras I am talking about really tells you

all about it. You need to sit and question and

contenplate to understand.<br>Once you understand this much

then the arishadvargas take and their nuisience

becomes very clear. So its all in the way the mind

intreprets things and the influences the mind goes through.

External influence is just one among the many influences

before you receive the product from it. <br><br>Hope

this helps.<br><br>- Seshadri.