One last word, SilentOpp

[Guest guest]

Dear silentopp,<br>Think that your approach to

reality is going to be curbed as it falls quite out of

the scope of this club, so henceforth please continue

on e-mail if you will(never mind if you are more

interested in a larger no. of people hearing you out at a

time)<br>Anyway...<br>1)""WHO validates this personal understanding to be

correct or without flaws?"<br>is it corrobration by a

certain no. of people?<br>or is it a gut feeling ?<br>or

something else..."<br>I would say empirical

evidence.<br>Empirical evidence gathered over hundreds of years of human

civilisation""<br>Empirical evidence is fine but is valid only upto today,

not tomorrow.<br><br>2)""I think the ultimate test of

a theory would be if it can explain the progress of

human civilisation, which includes the progress of the

productive forces, as well as thought (including religion,

philosophy, arts and culture, etc.).<br>It is just that karma

as a theory cannot explain any of this. ""<br>Karma

is only a part of the whole theory, it would take

deeper study and perception for the rest.<br><br>3)“”Why

does greed arise?<br>It arises because of the

*physical* conditions of private property in

production.””<br>Here you are trying to elevate what is just a

conducive condition to the level of a cause. The difference

in our approaches is highlighted here. On deeper

analysis, instead of an emotion formed out of habit,

it(greed) appears more of a natural characteristic of a

(non-) entity called ego which due to its non-existence

in reality is always trying to lend itself

credibility by means of attaching to itself a lot of things

beginning with the body.<br>Obviously, such excercises by

so many non-entities has to result in conflict ! The

resolution of these conflicts according to the spiritual

approach hence is realisation by all of the truth of the

matter.<br>But please do go on and explain the resolution of the

conflicts according to your views, may be we arrive at a

common ground, though by different paths<br><br>4)””

See, that is what I meant by the first difficult

step.<br>The first difficult step is to let go of the ideas

that you have and to be ready and willing to hear-out

a non-conventional idea.<br>Don't reject an idea

just because you don't like its source, or its

tone.””<br>Ditto !<br>What about something that is so

unconventional that it can only be pointed at and not put into

words. What really happens as soon as anybody lets go of

all his past, all his conditioning?? The term “I” is

nothing but a amalgamation of all the memories and past

conditioning of that individual body. Come on, what happens on

sincerely letting go of all this baggage of past

conditioning?<br><br>5)”” But how can you use this love to alleviate the

suffering of people….<br>… It is by changing the world in a

way that the causes of evil are rooted out.””<br>From

aeons of civilisation, sincere men of a better

intellect such as yourself have been attempting exactly

this by changing the world. One system with another,

another with another and so on. To what effect? Any

change that does not come from within all the units of

the whole, only being implemented from above is thus

futile. So in your attempt to bring about this change in

society, do you intend to solely rely on your excellent

capabilities or bring up the level of awareness of all; and

for that each one has to realise the truth on his own

which is all spirituality is all about.….personal

.<br><br>contd..

[Guest guest]

Greetings,<br><br>Sorry for the delayed

reply.<br>A couple of my other replies got shot down like US

helicopters over Afghanistan <br>Hope this one makes

thru......I'll try and keep it as dispassionate as

possible.<br><br>"Empirical evidence is fine but is valid only upto today,

not tomorrow."<br><br>Exactly !! That is why we must

constantly re-examine and revise our beliefs.<br>Even in the

realm of physical sciences, such as Chemistry and

Astronomy, ideas are constanly being created and revised,

behavioural sciences and social sciences definetely will be

far behind.<br><br>"entity called ego which due to

its non-existence in reality is always trying to lend

itself credibility by means of attaching to itself a lot

of things beginning with the body."<br><br>Ego as an

idea, like every other idea, cannot exist without a

material base. It originates from a material base (in this

case private ownership of means of production) and

then assumes a life of its own in such a way that it

seems to indeed have a life of its own.<br>Since

production is such a central part of human activity, it is

inconceivable that the mode of ownership of the means of

production will not shape human consciousness in any

way.<br>Greed is a direct result of that private means of

ownership.<br>Attempting to flush it out from the conscience of society at

the spiritual level is futile because its basis lies

in real conditions and not in the mind.<br><br>"But

please do go on and explain the resolution of the

conflicts according to your views, may be we arrive at a

common ground, though by different paths."<br><br>See

above.<br>However impossible it might seem at the present time, the

solution lies in rooting out private ownership of means of

production.<br>One single individual might be able to control his

ego by using self-control and discipline, but for the

society as a whole to root out greed, the material

conditions must change.<br><br>"The term “I” is nothing but

a amalgamation of all the memories and past

conditioning of that individual body. Come on, what happens on

sincerely letting go of all this baggage of past

conditioning?"<br><br>Humility.....loss of memory <grin/><br><br>"One

system with

another, another with another and so on. To what

effect?"<br><br>Trial and error.<br>Social sciences have not developed

to a stage where we can use it like medicine....take

this to cure poverty, take this to cure exploitation,

etc.<br>Mankind must experiment by trial and error.<br>Throughout

history, the social system does seem to improve.....from

slavery to feudalism to the present day

capitalism.<br>There is still a long way to go...a way, unfortunately,

paved with difficulties and struggles.

[Guest guest]

i hope you were trying to be funny,

unfortunately, i didnt find it so. You do remind me of one who

went against the topic of the club by the name of

gypsy and she too continued to do this even when asked

nicely to stick to the topics at hand. She was an

instigator. By your opening comments, it seems you are too.

Such a shame We have some great posts on karma, on

siddhas, on sadhana....i would be interested to hear your

experiences in these things. in love, mirabai

[Guest guest]

Greetings Mirabai,<br><br>I don't know which part

in the message you found funny (or thought I was

trying to be funny).<br>It was written with perfectly

serious intentions <br><br>"You do remind me of one who

went against the topic of the club by the name of

gypsy and she too continued to do this even when asked

nicely to stick to the topics at hand."<br><br>I don't

know who you are referring to. I haven't seen any

posts from anyone called Gypsy. Maybe that was before

my time (I've been here on this club only a few

days).<br><br>"By your opening comments, it seems you are too. Such

a shame We have some great posts on karma, on

siddhas, on sadhana....i would be interested to hear your

experiences in these things."<br><br>I would love to share my

experiences....however, I fear my views and my deductions from my

experiences might go against the boilerplate views

here.<br>Actually my other post about karma of a nation is related

with this.<br>I am trying to determine whether the

theory of karma has the solution that can alleviate the

suffering of the peoples of 'backward' countries.<br>Can it

reform the consciousness of one single individual, and

then the consciousness of an entire nation?<br>I know

that both of these are popular-we have seen it in

action during recent history.<br>In our own country

India, you can see the former in action with Mohandas

Karamchand Gandhi and how he underwent a sea change while in

South Africa and formulated the ideology of non-violent

non-cooperation form of social activity.<br>Then the same

consciousness got extrapolated to the entire nation and they

fought to drive the British out.<br>What I am trying to

figure is whether that was essentially karma at work or

does the basis lie in the material conditions during

that time, which created the consciousness.<br>Right

now I am leaning towards the second explanation.

[Guest guest]

The problem is you are perceiving a glasswith

half its volume of water and wondering this glass is

half empty and wondering where did the rest of the

water go. For a moment please ponder the

posibility/situation of half full glass. The next thing you will say

is where did this water come from. <br><br>Thats all

it makes as a difefrence.<br><br>- Seshadri.

[Guest guest]

Well dksesh, i am glad you will not allow

yourself to be a victim. Thre are no victims with respect

to the eternal. There is a difference between pain

and suffering. When you reach a new level of

consciousness you will of course feel pain, but you do not

suffer. You can transend that part of the physical

illusion. <br><br>Carl Jung once joked that we should all

kick a blind man whenever we see one. He askes, "Why

should we be kinder than God!" <br><br>wink*<br><br>ol'

sarge

[Guest guest]

At the end of the day, its just a matter of

perception. If u think its pain, then it is so. If you think

its pleasure, then it is pleasure.<br><br>These

things are intrepreted by the mind alonh with a lot of

subtle attributes. Its the removal of these attributes,

that seperates it from the emotion and so from the

involvement.<br><<<br>When you reach a new level of consciousness you will

of course feel pain, but you do not suffer.

<br>>> this makes sense at that time.<br><br>We are

echoing the same stuff.<br><br><<<br>Carl Jung once

joked that we should all kick a blind man whenever we

see one. He askes, "Why should we be kinder than

God!" <br>>><br>If we are under the impression

that we are different, then we will do all kind of

crazy things.<br><br>If <<He askes, "Why should

we be kinder than God!">> is followed, then

the person/society becomes like the Taliban and the

karma for it follows it. <br><br>- Seshadri.

[Guest guest]

"At the end of the day, its just a matter of

perception. If u think its pain, then it is so. If you think

its pleasure, then it is pleasure."<br><br>And your

perceptions (which are a part of your consciousness) are

shaped by the material conditions in which you live.

That is the role you play in society's mode of

production and distribution.<br>Thus your perception is

slave to your being (or your material

existence).<br>There is no way to separate the being from the

consciousness, or the idea from its material

conditioning.<br>The only way you can change your perceptions (and

hence your consciousness) is by changing your material

conditions.<br>For society as a whole, the consciousness can be

changed only by changing the mode of production.<br>If

society is to master and controls its group karma, it

must change the conditions of its existence.

[Guest guest]

You need practice. My suggestion is that please

practice Patanjali's sutras. <br>I can point you to

certain meditation institutes if necessary. You are not

able to comprehend what I am saying.<br><br>-

Seshadri.

[Guest guest]

Blessed Self, silentopposition<br><br>You say,

"The only way you can change your perceptions (and

hence your consciousness) is by changing your material

conditions." <br><br>That idea is not true. You change your

perceptions by changing your internal conditions or your

consciousness. Patanjali's Raja or Ashtanga Yoga is one way to

do this. You change your perceptions by changing

your perspective, by seeking the wisdom of the

chakras. <br><br>It is not just those 'material

conditions' of the current life that shape your perceptions.

It is also the material conditions of past lives and

your resulting personality. Change the personality,

change the subconscious issues and the perceptions

change. And you magically find that you are living in a

new world.<br><br>omprem

[Guest guest]

Some would say, without the individual, there

would be no society. I am of the belief, that there are

not even individuals. There is no "we", "i", "me",

"us".....all is divine One cannot look at karma as a history

of....these are two totally different levels of

understanding.<br>The choices that are put into action from an

"individual" set forth an entire liteny of events. Thousands

of these events, thousands of choices make up the

society. It is unfathomable to even understand how many

choices, actions, etc must need to be made by an untold

number of people for society to be affected by karma. I

think one needs to focus in on onesself before setting

out to blame society for the ills of the world. In

fact, there are NO ills...all is as it should be. in

love, mirabai

[Guest guest]

""And your perceptions (which are a part of your

consciousness) are shaped by the material conditions in which

you live.""<br>You do not have to go far in rural

India to find people who are apparently in a bad way

materially but far more satisfied and happier than their

rich counterparts in the west.<br>Rather than the

material conditions shaping consciousness, it would be a

person's reaction to them or his desires that do.<br>As

Seshadri said, a half glass of water is a source of pain

to many a rich owing to the percieved emptiness, but

the same glass is counted as a blessing among many

who are glad that it isn't empty.<br>Whatever be the

material conditions(an oft repeated phrase in your

arguments!), it is man's true nature to rise above them and

realise the unimportance of them just as a kid does for

his toys upon growing up. What then is the further

source of attraction above this material world ?<br>For

that, friend, spirituality may have some

answers.<br>regards