Karma of a nation

October 28, 2001

Greetings, Does a nation also have karma

like an individual does? I believe it does because

just as within an individual there is a constant

struggle between the good energies and the negative

energies, similarly within any nation there is a constant

struggle between the progressive elements and the

retrogressive elements. The problem I am facing with this

line of thinking is that how does a nation go about

converting its negative forces to positive ones. Any

thoughts?

October 29, 2001

Namaskarm! Yes, that is my belief as well.

If an individual get an impact out of the

progressive or retrogressive actions or thoughts (Karma), the

aftermath of the karma of a society or a nation will

definitely be there. For example, the recent developments in

USA. Well, we all denounce the terrorist activities,

be it in USA, India or anywhere in this world. While

doing so, just think who created and nurtured Taliban

and Bin Laden and what was the intention behind that?

This reminds me the story of Lord Shiva and

Bhasmasura. Posting of my letter titled 'My country is a

mother to me" was intended to substantiate this

claim. Loka Samasta Sukhino Bhavantu! Devan

October 29, 2001

Blessed Self, silentopposition Yes, there

is such a thing as group karma. It simply means that

a group of people with similar karmic consequences

to be worked out in this world find themselves in

the same place and experience those consequences

together. This idea of group karma is at work in the seaside

village that gets wiped out by a tsumami, those people

who were in the World Trade Towers on September 11,

the Afghans who have endured more than 20 years of

war, and those who fell to the Black Death plagues in

Europe. Group karma is also operating in those syndicates that

win lotteries; in those disciples who have the same

guru; in the membership of a club, business

organiization or a congregation. There are places of

psychic power in the world and the receptive or lucky

people settle there. Ottawa is one of those places and I

feel fortunate to be here. There are also places with

negative energies that drain one's inner resources and

keep one locked in the karmic issues of the lower

chakras. Barrie, Ontario is one of those places. (But

please don't tell the Barrie Chamber of Commerce that I

said so. I would not want to get them any more upset

that they already are.) Group karma doesn't

mean that one has the same end result. It means only

that one is in the same circumstance as others in the

same place and at the same time. Individual karma

determines whether you live or die in the tsunami, squander

you lottery winnings or use it wisely for the

betterment of others, kick the alcohol habit as a member of

AA or leave AA and become a hopeless street corner

drunk. Some become enlightened under the tutelage of a

guru, others become disenchanted with the same

guru. Om namah Sivaya omprem

October 29, 2001

Thank you very much omprem for this enlightened

post. I would also like to bring up this point: as a

group, people make decisions. Here in the US, we vote

for our leaders who then make decisions on our

behalf. If I didn't like it, I always have the option to

make my way to Ottawa. The people in AA choose to

follow the group's rules and listen to leaders, thus

empowering them and their ways. And so, as a group we make

choices, and as a group we see the fruits of these actions

-- spolied or nice and ripe. OM

Shanti Erica

October 29, 2001

Greetings Devan, I understood your

points. Continuing with the example that you used, are you saying

that the victims of the Sep11 tragedy were there at

that point in time because of their past karma? Is

it that they have committed ill deeds earlier in

their lives, because of which they met their fate in

this fashion? By that token, then they are not

"innocent" victims? How can karma [or whatever force is

at work here] justify the death of so many men,

women and children in such a cruel

fashion? Second point: you seemed to indicate that it was the

past actions of America that created the Taliban and

bin Laden groups. I agree with that, as far as

politics and foreign policy is concerned. But then the

people who were really responsible for it don't seem to

have been affected at all. People like the

politicians and the lobbyists of that time haven't lost their

family and friends in these attacks. It is the normal

working class people who have lost their lives and their

families. Those who created this situation are still going

scott-free. Something much more evil is at work here-a force so evil

that it has corrupted the minds and actions of

everyone in our times. How else can we explain the

carnage that is going on all around the world now-from

Afghanistan to Palestine to Kashmir to Yogoslavia?

October 29, 2001

Greetings, Thanks for the

explanation. My quest is to find out how can group karma be

controlled. I have been told that individual karma can be

controlled by meditation. I don't know whether that is true

or not because I have never tried it, but I suspect

there is more to it than just meditation. As for

group karma, what determines group karma? How is it

related with the social consciousness? By

consciousness I mean the aggregate of all ideas and beliefs in

a society at any given historical epoch. My

belief is that social consciousness is determined by the

mode and techniques of production in that

society. So how can social consciousness be reformed so that

the society does not fall into decay and face the

kind of circumstances that Afghanistan [for example]

is facing today?

October 29, 2001

Hey i got a good answer to all the ills of the

world, "The devil made me do it!!" Too easy? Yeah. i

thought so too. We do "reap" what we so. In a way. We

also reap behaviors our parents have sown within us.

The actions of Hitler were due to a collective belief

system both conscious and unconcious. This belief is

that some people were unequal. War happened when a

majority decided listen to their emotions of right and

wrong and decided to end his reign of

horror. Bin Laden hates that his country allows 'infidels' to

reside his his homeland. Didnt you know that??? He sees

himself as doing God's work (as if God needed help

right?) From a spiritual perspective there is no right or

wrong, no judgement or punishment. There is also no

death. So all the souls who died in this horrible

tragidy are waiting to be reborn, but in addition they

taught those who remained about the meaning of love. Not

taking family for granted. Not acting selfishly in the

face of disaster. Giving blood, money, time, to those

in need. Pausing, if for just a moment, to stop

thinking about money, careers, deadlines, and pettyness

and cast our eyes toward God. To remember

LOVE. om tat sat >:*)

October 29, 2001

Greetings, "The actions of Hitler were due

to a collective belief system both conscious and

unconcious. This belief is that some people were

unequal." That belief arises from the material conditions of

production in which we see the division between those who

control the means of production thru private ownership,

and those who work on the means of production-but

don't own it. That division is reflected in the

belief system as inequality. As for Hitler, the Nazi

ideology arose as a result of the restrictions placed on

the industrialisation of Germany after the First

World War (Treaty of Versailles). The monopolistic

industrialists could easily identify themselves with the

militant nationalist ideology of the Nazi party as well as

the Nazi hatred for labour unions. Those were the

conditions that created the monster of Nazism. "So

all the souls who died in this horrible tragidy are

waiting to be reborn," Then the hospitals will be

getting busy pretty soon <grin/> Jokes apart, I

think those folx who died were just unfortunate enough

to be there. Why is it that they had to pay for

the sins of others? They did nothing to create the

situation n Iraq or Saudi or anywhere else. Then why did

they become victims? I think it is another example

of how the common people must always pay for the

actions of those who control politics and government.

October 29, 2001

Blessed Self, peggyhand Excellent

answer. It is said that karmic events are neither all 'good'

nor all 'bad' and you gave some very important

aspects of the 'good' that can come from events such as

Sept 11. Some other, more politically practical 'good'

events to come out that situation are the IRA's decision

to start disarming and the Basques saying that they

will stop bombing if an election is held. There are

many other such examples. But your points that we have

to Love God and one another and live in the moment

are the most important. So no assumptions that we can

start our spiritual practices tomorrow. Start them

today, this very second. Hari Om Tat

Sat omprem

October 29, 2001

Respected lautlose Oppositionspartei (silent

opposition) The nazi party was initially called the national

socialist German workers party and one of their main

precepts was: "The party as such represents the

point of view of a positive Christianity without

binding itself to any one particular confession. It

fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and

without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our

folk can only come about from within on the principle:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" (i lived 12

yrs in Nuernberg Germany) Sure the Versailles was

oppressive, but we are responsible for our actions as i said

before and live in a world of our own making, but i

digress... You see, hate comes from greed..to quote Hanibal

Lector in "Silence of the Lambs," You covet what you see

every day. i bet it really irks Bin Laden, who

believes that God is on his side, to see prosperity in an

infidel nation such as the US. Once more, you turn

out victims in what you label a "Shit happens"

opportunity (I think those folx who died were just

unfortunate enough to be there.) You said it! This world is

illusory. Aalbert Einstein (i'm on a german roll now) said,

"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing

great power, war is inevitable" Indeed, war is the

child of pride. *smile* as retired female

soldier and desert storm vet, i bet i irk the talibans

too...wink Peggy - US Army (retired)

October 29, 2001

Blessed Self, silentopposition Those who

died in NYC and DC did not die to pay for the sins of

others. They died because of their own karmas just we all

will do. It was their physical body that was

destroyed, their soul and psychic bodies remain and await

rebirth. How they died, what their last thoughts

were are more important than the fact that they died.

It is last moments of facing death that determines

future reincarnations. I do not want to create a

political forum in this club so please do not respond to

this paragraph in a political way. Your idea that the

victims of Sept 11 did nothing to create the situation in

Saudi Arabia, Iraq or the Middle East can be responded

to by saying that one can contribute to world events

even through silence in the face of injustice or wrong

actions. No one has said this more eloquently than Martin

Niemoller in his poem about the Holocaust: "First

they came for the Communists, but I was not a

Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the

Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I

did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I

was not a trade unionist. And then they came for

the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little.

Then when they came for me, there was no one left to

stand up for me." One must voice concerns about

the actions of political leaders but in a sattvic way

that does not steer one from their spiritual path onto

a political path. If those leaders hear, they hear.

If they don't, it does little good to for the

messenger to give up the connection with the Divine in

order to get their attention because without that

connection to the Divine they will not hear the

message. Hari Om Tat Sat omprem

October 29, 2001

Blessed Self, peggyhand To inject a

lighter note here: I think it was Flip Wilson who

popularized, "The devil made me do it." But do you know

who was that saddled us with the uninformative idea

of , "shit happens"? Yours in the quest for

truth omprem

October 29, 2001

well omprem, my experience here was a bumpersticker on a car while i was at Kent

State Univesity.. om tat sat >:*)

October 29, 2001

Greeting OmPrem, No, I will try not to

bring in any political views in this "How

they died, what their last thoughts were are more

important than the fact that they died. It is last moments

of facing death that determines future

reincarnations." This is something that I have always strongly

disagreed with. Death as a normal consequence of life,

as an antithesis of life, is natural and

acceptable. However, death of a person, however old or young, for

man-made causes mocks at our civilisation and our maturity

as a race. I have always felt very, very strongly

when I have seen or heard human beings killed because

of the greed, avarice or plain stupid carelessness

of another human being. This includes the death

of the people on sep 11 tragedies as well as road

accidents that happen every day, every minute on the roads

of all countries. At the spiritual level, you may

say that their death was a result of their karma and

their re-incarnation will also be a result of their

karma; but the fact remains that their death was a

direct result of human greed-those of the terrorists as

well as the politicians and 'experts' who created such

a mess all around the world. I believe that

social consciousness has negative elements in it, such

as greed, hatred, etc. But those negative elements

are a direct result of the negative conditions of

production of our society. Consider this: during the

times of slavery (say the Roman or Egyptian times), the

society was divided into the slaves and the

slave-owners. The slave-owners hated and despised the slaves and

vice versa. What was the basis of that? The basis

was the conditions of production in the society where

the slaves worked in the fields and manufacturing

units under the rule of the slave-owners. The mutual

hatred was rooted directly into the conditions of

production, and had nothing to do with the colour of skins,

religion or karma. Similarly in the middle ages, the

struggle between the different classes, such as the

workers in the manufacturing guilds, the serfs, and the

robber Barons was a direct result of the conditions of

production (serfdom, in this case). Similarly today,

there is a constant struggle between the different

forces that seek to dominate the means of production

and, more importantly perhaps, the mode of

distribution. Such struggles in the mode of production find

expression/realisation in the struggles in the conscience of society in

the form of religious groups, radical groups and also

progressive and free-thinking groups. To come back to the

current events, I don't find anything particularly bad

about the people who died in such fashion. Maybe

they committed some sins-who hasn't? Their sins

might have been the same as the sins of several other

human beings. As for the possibility of them being

re-incarnated, much as I would like to believe in it, I think it

is a consolation theory created to console the

people who are suffering like this. This theory

serves as a warm blanket for those people who can't find

justice and equality in this world.

October 29, 2001

Greetings Peggy, "Aalbert Einstein (i'm on

a german roll now) said, "As long as there are

sovereign nations possessing great power, war is

inevitable" Indeed, war is the child of pride." I

wouldn't dare to disagree with Albert Einstein. Just to

extend a bit further what he said (without going too

off-topic), it is true that war is inevitable "as long as

there are nations possessing great power.". The

reason for that is our present social system *needs* war

to survive. Think about this irony: every war has

been followed by a period of economic boom. The

post-world war 2 period in America for example. Post WW-1

period in Japan, for example. This is because the

system feeds on war, just as a ghoul. War is not only

a direct result of the clash of economic interests,

but also it is a necessary condition for survival of

our socio-economic system. This is the sad truth

of our times. And it is this fact that we must seek

to change, each in our own ways.

October 29, 2001

<< How they died, what their last

thoughts were are more important than the fact that they

died. It is last moments of facing death that

determines future reincarnations. >> Really?

While I have heard that this is so. I have read from

certain books and from spitit talk which are supposed to

be authentic that the next incarnation is decided by

the soul while it is up there. I am also told that it

decideds its parents and environment to work out its karma

and progress further. Not sure, but

rationally the latter is a lot more comforting. -

Seshadri.

October 29, 2001

<< As for group karma, what determines

group karma? How is it related with the social

consciousness? >> Group Karma is helped by elders in the society who

are

mature. Which is why in the ancient times, the Bramhana

had no other role other than the aquiring of

knowledge , knowledge that is useful to the society and

make use of it for the society he lives with. In

turn, the society would take care of all his material

needs. Ancient elders would do a lot of Yaagas and Yagnas. These

were to appease the gods within and pray that through

the offering, the attributes of the society as a

whole will face improvement. The Bramhana would

conduct, officiate and administer the Yagna, the kshatriya

would protect and nurture it, the Vysya would donate

money and other necessities and the kshudra would

provide service. Togather they would make the

things happen. The benefit would go to all. Which is why

the word uttered in such places are sarve jaanaahaa

sukhino bhavantu and extend to om prithivi shaathihi, om

anthariksha shaanthi, om paataala shaanthihi etc. At

the end, the blessing reach everyone and leave out no

one. A clear example of vedic/vedantic use for the

society. Believe me, when really mature people does this, the

effect on the society is really tremendous. The society

produced the best mathamatecians, saints, physicists,

architects, civil engineers, artists and many more way ahead

of its time in the rest of the world. Alonng

with it, it also subdued the ego and emotions so

badly, we never did things egoistically that other

nations looking at power possibly for the first time ever

in their history are behaving. That was the intended

effect of the kriyas. The country had knowledge and

wealth, obtained fro natural resources and aquired

through trade, had a mature society and a wonderful

culture. Do you need a better example of mass karma? -

Seshadri.

October 29, 2001

agreed DK...it is my belief that we choose our

parents, lessons to be learned, and yes, even death before

incarnating. The thing is of course, that once we are reborn,

we forget we have made these choices, so that when

the time comes, it seems tragic or sad or a surprise.

I truly feel that those who were "supposed" to be

there were and those that were not supposed to be

there, got out. It may sounds cold to say that, but I

truly believe the divine was there the entire time and

prevented any suffering. Even those who have lost loved

ones, seem to rally around their love for those lost.

You will note that none of the families have

expressed any desire for retaliation. Indeed, there is a

shift going on, much deeper than we realize. Of course,

this is only my humble opinion and my belief system.

in love, mirabai

October 29, 2001

which is very true. We also forget all that when

the birth takes place. Only really good sadhakas

remember their past. But death has to have a reason.

While there is a pity for so many killed on the WTC, so

many others die in hospitals, killed by pathogens,

some are murdered....we can't seperate all these away

from the WTC. Its the same karma working here as well.

The point is like silentopps said, and why did tehy

have to die ? My question is why did anybody else

too had to die? Everyone could like to old age and

die peacefully in the sleep of a heart attack or

something milder? Why the violent deaths at the hands of

pathogens, animals, incidents, things etc etc...? The

point is not to get emotional and to take things in a

neutral third party status and then analyse the results

like a scientist who has no affinity to any theory but

to fact does. Its only then that things will fall

into place. For reason flourishes where emotion is

under its control. - Seshadri.

October 29, 2001

"For reason flourishes where emotion is under its

control." Very well said, Seshadri. Sounds very

refreshing. Just a couple of additions: death is a natural

antithesis of life. There is a constant struggle between

life and death, as thesis and antithesis of each

other. Their synthesis is achieved in new life forms and in

progress of mankind. I don't think science, with all

its progress, will ever master death and eliminate

it. Our human mind always grieves death, whatever form it

is in. But in death, there is new

life. That apart, I think unnatural death is a direct

consequence of the material conditions under which mankind as

been living hitherto. Wars, plague, disease, crime,

etc. are all products of our material

conditions. Thus, I believe, that while mankind can never eliminate

death, it is in our power to eliminate this type of

death. Just imagine: of the so many people who die in such

fashion each day, quite a few number of people could have

made a *huge* difference to mankind. Someone could

have been a doctor and saved lives; someone could have

been an engineer and invented better tools,

etc. Others, who may not have achieved fame, would still have

made a difference to hundreds of lives as ordinary

husbands, wives, children and friends. If karma is

preventing so many young souls from realising their

potential, then it is not a progressive force. I

think what is preventing mankind from realising its

potential are the retrogressive conditions of production in

our societies. Private ownership of means of

production, jagged distribution patterns of the social

product, manipulation of religious and state institutions

by the controllers of the means of production and

appropriation of the value created by labour by the owners of

means of production and distribution. If man is ever

able to change this mode of production, all the other

things that we can now only dream about will be

realised.

Karma of a nation

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