Who is decent??

November 17, 2001

Tks Erica for bringing this issue on board. As

came up during the chat that a sadhaka should make his

first goal of being decent. I am of the view that a

sadhaka has to be necessarily a good person first then a

good sadhaka. Decency here does not go by

British standards..spiritual decency is altogether

different form. What it should be? who can be called

spiritually a decent person? One who does not drink..or does

not smoke...or refrains from sex ? or knows lot of

things about God? or one who can beautifully cut and

paste web articles and claim to be the most

knowledgable? Or one who is kind,harmless and

selfless? Well I would like to tell two small incidents which

happened in Delhi. Scene 1: A temple priest near

Janakpuri in Delhi was the most respected guy in the

area..his knowledge of Shastra and religion was perfect and

he was the most sought after person in the area.

Then he was arrested on the charges of molesting a

teen aged girl. The priest was influential and girl's

father was a poor labourer. Finally the priest managed

through his money and political influence and forced

girl's father to withdraw the case...The priest is still

a "Decent" person serving the god !! Scene

2- Mr. X was from a good family but due to big

losses in business, he was reduced to a pauper. He had 3

daughters the eldest one soon to get married. Mr.X arranged

a hand cart and started selling vegetables in our

colony in trans-Yamuna area of Delhi. 2 days before the

marriage day, he came to me and explained how all his

relatives had ditched him and refused to lend him the

promised money and that he had nothing in his pocket to

pay for the decorater and caterer. I myself was quite

poor then and was not in a position to pay Rs.25000

for the job. I told him," ok let us go to the owner

of tent-house and talk to him..may be he will agree

to do this job for you on credit..and you can later

pay him in instalments". But he was not

hopeful as he said," dear thanks for your advice..but I

know the Patron...he is a drunkard and a gambler...I

have not seen a bigger sinner than he, and i am sure

he wil not help" But still i took him to his

house. We were ushered to his private room and we are

shocked to see there a big party of his friends busy in

gambling and drinking. The whole room was filled up with

smoke and laughters. They were sitting in a circle,

with their whisky glasses, cards in hands and a heap

of currency notes which were on stake.I tried to

draw his attention but he bade us to go out..Mr x's

face was again sad..meanwhile one of his friend who

knew me and Mr.x asked us to explain quickly what we

needed. I had finished just half of our request, when the

person almost drunk...called Mr.x to him and told in

broken words," You need money for yr daughter's

marriage..ok come on pick up from this heap...as much as u

can. This money belongs to none of us...as it is yet

to be won. Mrs. X came out with about 20,000

rupees ...his problem ws over and his eyes were

tearful. Those "Indecent" people are still unpopular in our

colony...but i think they are more spiritual than

many... Any comments ? Hari Aum

November 17, 2001

Yeah, the man was drunk and when he would have

come to his senses, he would have realised what he

did. Gambling is a vice, not just of a person, but of

society. I don't know how you define 'decent', but I cannot

stretch my imagination far enough to imagine a man who

gambles as unabashedly as you described and still you

call him decent. I will need to smoke crack before

I can think of such a man as 'decent'. Go figure.

November 18, 2001

>>Does intent alone make one decent or

indecent? << No person can be called decent or

indecent. All of us have mixed tendencies. There are 3

basic qualities ( guna) : tamas, rajas and satwa 1.

Tamas is laziness, inertia etc. 2. Rajas, is the

basis of all activities. As said in the gita, "

Kama yesha, krodha yesha, rajo guna samudbavaha. maha

shanau maha papma, vidyenam iha vairinam" "Kama

(lust, and desire), krodha ( anger) arise from rajo

guna. Oh Maha papma (impure soul), know that this is

your enemy in this world". There is more to rajo

guna, and I guess we can bring a separate topic on

it. 3. Satwa, is a divine, holy, serene, pure

attitude. All of us have all the 3 gunas. for eg. while

sleeping we have tamas, while in office, and while doing

housework we have rajas, while praying, in satsangh, while

reading good books we have satwa. What enables us

to classify a person as good or bad, depends on

which qualities are more dominant. For eg. in the 2

stories told by silentsoul, the priest is satvic , as he

does puja the whole day. But he has spoilt the life of

a girl. Can he still be classified as satvic??? The

answer is no. B'cos in his case, his negative

quality(ies) outweigh(s) his good ones. In the second

story, the drunkard helped his friend. But can they be

classified as good people? No. At that particular instant of

time, they were satvic. But that does not mean that

they are satvic people. As Ramana Maharshi

says often, let's not waste time on classifying decent

or indecent people. Let's concentrate on our

sadhna. Let's strive to outweigh our bad qualities with the

good, and finally transcend all the 3 gunas.

Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu ! (God Bless the World

!) Hari Aum !!!

November 18, 2001

Well said SVCS ""As Ramana Maharshi says often,

let's not waste time on classifying decent or indecent

people. Let's concentrate on our sadhna."" "Does

intent makes a person decent or indecent" If

you remember someone posted a story in this club

about a prostitute and a priest who died together and

reached Yama (god of death)..and Yama found the

prostitute to be decent as she while dancing thought of the

priest's holy life and priest while doing puja thought of

charms of the dancing girl. Bhava has more value than

the deeds. And you have also beautfully

explained that none of us is a true decent or

indecent. But there are certain basic qualities and if we

do not possess them, sadhna will be fruitless. What

is that ? I did not want to glorify the vices of

drunkards in my story but wished to say that if they

started Sadhna..they would progress faster than the

priest...becoz they had one basic quality --Not harming and

helping those in need. I have seen from my

experience that all great souls about whom i have read or

have met...had one basic quality. They never harm

anyone by deeds or thoughts. Advaitin will think whole

universe as him and will not harm himself...and dvaitin

will take the whole universe as his God and would not

like to harm his god. As long as we have a

desire in us to harm others, we are not actually

qualified to be a sadhaka. But Erica asked If

protecting ourselves will not amount to harming ? It

is a very tricky question.....Well we do not live in

a cave in Himalaya doing our sadhna...we are face

to face with a cruel, selfish and angry World....How

can we protect ourselves without harming ??

Who decides whether our action is harming or not ?

Our ego will always assure us that we are right..and

the other is wrong. When one starts sadhna

these question really haunt him...though on higher

planes this confusions vanishes...but who will guide us

in our primary days of sadhna....certainly not our

EGO !! Then who else ? Hari Aum

November 18, 2001

Blessed Self, Silent Soul Your examples

are interesting and seem to have led to a confusion

between the gunas and decency and between and action and

intent. The temple priest is clearly not decent and not

sattwic. To recite prayers and perform pujas all day is

not sattwic unless the attitude is also sattwic. But

the priest has allowed himself to be corrupted by his

position of influence. (the oft-told story of spiritual

leaders falling from grace). While he may recite prayers,

he is not listening to them with his heart. His

actions of abusing the young girl clearly demonstrate

that his mind is not with God, is not sattwic and is

not even decent. Then, the priest abuses his religion

and his God by hiding behind them, emphasizing his

lofty position of authority and exerting influence to

avoid taking responsibility for his actions.

But the priest should know that he cannot escape the

karmic consequences of his act. To do so, only reaps

more karmic consequences for himself and for those who

help him avoid taking responsibility. No, the priest

is undeserving of being a priest and will pay a

heavy price for misusing his position and for abusing

the girl. The cardplayers, on the other hand,

are tamasic but decent. As you point out, they do no

harm (except to themselves) and they were ready to

help another in need. It was interesting that once the

money left their hands and became part of a bet, they

disavowed ownership of it. It is likely that they did not

have an intense attachment to the money in the first

place. Unlike the priest who used money to buy an

apparent escape from justice. So the cardplayers

are tamasic but decent. The priest is rajasic and not

decent. The cardplayers were leading a dissolute

lifestyle but their intent, at least in this case, was

detached and benevolent. The priest was leading a double

life, the false life of prayer and puja that he clearly

did not believe in and the carnal life of a man of

appetite. The priest was neither detached not benevolent

but rather he was self-centered and

manipulative. The cardplayers had good intentions toward others.

They displayed vairagya and viveka towards others but

not toward themselves. The priest had lost vairagya

and viveka regarding others as well as

himself. As has been pointed out, each of us has rajas, tamas

and sattwa in everchanging proportions. Some times we

are predominantly sattwic, sometimes rajasic and

sometimes tamasic. But regardless of which guna is in

ascendency, we are still bound to the world of the senses and

the ego. Sattwa is still a trap although perhaps a

more pleasant one. It is through sadhana and the grace

of God that we move beyond tamas to rajas, move

beyond rajas to sattwa, and move beyond sattwa to

Self-Realization. Om namah Sivaya Omprem

November 18, 2001

>>As Ramana Maharshi says often, let's not

waste time on classifying decent or indecent people.

Let's concentrate on our

sadhna.<< Classifying decent or indecent people is judgeing them

and we

are judging them by what is inside ourselves, because

what we see in others that we do not like is a

reflection of ourselves.....and vice

versa. >>Let's strive to outweigh our bad qualities with the

good, and finally transcend all the 3 gunas.<<

When we learn to control our thoughts, then we

transend and see purity in all. The one who controls

his/her mind brings his/her body into

submission. vicki

November 18, 2001

>>Who decides whether our action is harming

or not ? << I hope the story that I

narrated from the panchatantra will help people in trying

to draw a line between not harming others, and

protecting ourselves. I do agree that it's not always that

simple. An action by itself is neither good nor bad. It's

the circumstances that determine the goodness or

badness of an action. Let me illustrate this with an

example: If you give sweets to children on any festival, it's

a good action. But imagine there's a diabetic

patient with fasting sugar level of over 300, who is at a

risk of going into coma, sitting in front of you. If

you give sweets to this patient, ( and you are well

aware of his condition), is it a good action?

Is giving sweets a good action, or is it a bad

action ? The answer is neither. It's the circumstances

that determine an action to be good or bad. What

is good for me, might be bad for you. What is bad

for you, might be good for me. Then how do we

determine if our action is harming or not ? Bhagavan

Ramana Maharshi said on one occasion to a devotee,

"Throw all the responsibility on God. Do not bear the

burden yourself ". Instead of wasting time on

determining whether our action is good or bad, let's just

surrender with a pure heart to our Beloved Krishna. (If you

know not how to surrender, at least japa can be done.)

Let's throw the burden on our Beloved's shoulders. He's

the knower of all, and He'll guide us

through. Hari Aum !!! Lokha Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu !

November 19, 2001

Who Is Decent??? The Answer can be very deceptive

as the following story depicts Whom would you

call decent among these two: There is a

Millionaire's son who is a teetotaler, done his masters in

Buisness Adminstration, and is very religious. and the

Second is a Son of a Politicion, not much read, low on

IQ, a drunkard. ?? Definately every one of US

would opt for the first one. The Fact is the First

person is Bin LAden , and the second one George W Bush.

November 19, 2001

Tks omprem ji for such beautiful analysis of the

incidents. Someone saw only bad people in the story, someone

may see something else but you analysed in a very

logical manner and brought out the truth behind the

incident. It means, we see the world as we are...as if we

are looking out through the mirror of our mind and

see the world in different colors generated by our

mind. As vicky has so rightly said, we derive

the definition of good and bad as per our own

thoughts, not as per the reality. Now How to

de-color the mind ? or how to discipline the mind that it

shows us the correct picture of the universe and not

tainted by its own Vrittis ? Our sadhna leads us

to this goal and the more we progress, the more our

Viveka awakens and forces our mind to see in the right

direction.. in right perspective. But for this right

type of sadhna is required. Can you tell how we find

out that we are on the right path and not fooling

ourselves (like the priest)? There should be some criteria,

which will indicate we are doing right sadhna or

not? Hari Aum

November 19, 2001

ROFL...that was great Rajag !!!! Now here

again the question is raised...who is a real sadhaka

(read decent person). A person may be

religious, may be knowing thousands of shlokas but if he

lacks the basic qualities of a sadhka, all his sadhna

is useless...that z why we see religious fanatics

and religious idiots who are bigger harm to the

society than the athiests or non believers.

Ravana was a great shiva Bhakta and had great knowledge

of Shastra. But when he was being killed by Lord

Rama...why Shiva did not come to rescue his greatest bhakta

(i.e.Ravana) ??? Hari Aum

November 19, 2001

This is a bad comparison. Bin Laden is *not*

religious. No religious man can order the killing of

thousands of people and not bat an eyelid. In fact, both

of them are two sides of the same coin. Bin Laden

is the antithesis of the situation created by

American imperialism-just as Saddam Hussein was. Please

don't try and read anything else into this

situation-least of all any connection with religion or

righteousness. It is simply a clash of two wrongs.

November 19, 2001

To continue the discussion on this very practical

aspect of sadhna topic here are some of my comments.

Good, bad, decent is relative. It not only differs from

upbringing to upbringing but between cultures and age

groups, and even people to people as each one carries a

different meaning attached to behavior/words, each

according to their own experience. Being forthright and

honest may be considered rude in some parts of the

world, and normal in others. Being vague and

non-committal may be considered polite in some parts of the

world, while improper or irresponsible or unsure in

others. Because I live in an international community, I

have watched major battles break out simply because

two people were speaking the same tongue (English)

but with different meanings implicitly assigned.

On another level, there is nothing that is wrong,

indecent or incorrect. Everything is for a purpose,

perfectly fitting into the drama of and cause and

effect. However just as when we drive on a freeway we have to

follow some rules, when we come to our earth plane

existence we have some rules to follow. These typically

have become the matter of “religion”. If we notice the

most important ones tend to be those about how one

treats others, about not hurting people, and being

compassionate and responsible towards people and family. These

are often followed by rules for self-defense, which

then are followed by those defending justice to fellow

human beings. (Omprem’s post 2447 Martin Niemoller poem

illustrates the need for community) Here too, cultures play a

role. We see however, that the rules are, not about our

possessions, mental or material, but about our actions. All

actions are only a manifestation of our thoughts,

feelings and emotions. Hence the responsibility is

extended to our thoughts and emotions too. So it is

recognized that a fundamental requirement of living in this

earth planet with others around us is the need for

respect and compassion towards our fellow beings and

one’s own self. The problem, as presented in

this discussion, for sadhaks who are attempting to

live consciously, is what if our actions hurt others

when we are defending ourselves. How do we know we are

right? Right action, requires us to act according to the

Highest Truth, which may or may not be in tune with our

ego’s truth. Eg. If someone is critical of my action,

my ego may ask me to retaliate, deny, and protect

its sanctity. My Higher Truth however may ask me to

accept it as a possible mirror of what I need to change

about myself to move along in my growth. I say

possible, because it need not be so, and it is up to us to

make an honest judgment. My personal tool for that is

if certain actions/words create a severe reaction in

me, I take it as a personal issue to reflect on.

Further, I may draw lines as to how the truth is

delivered. If someone brings a message with the gun, the

message can be accepted, but the action of hurting is

not, and is dealt with accordingly. Sadhakas know that

most people who hurt others are merely furthering

their own hurt, but living on earth-plane requires us

to set boundaries on how we act towards others. Bin

Laden and company may have a message, but his delivery

system is not acceptable. Good intention does not

justify hurtful actions. ...contd

November 19, 2001

..... contd This is extended to our

everyday lives too. We may ‘accept’ a message, understand

an intrusion, hurt or unpleasantness, but a delivery

system or “message” that goes beyond certain lines of

delivery, making it abusive or hurtful, doesn’t have to be

acceptable. To make such decisions accurately, it is

imperative that we ourselves are clear about our intentions,

emotions and actions and know where they are coming from.

For that there is no other effective tool that I have

found aside from sadhana. No matter which Yoga path we

are attracted to, a disciplined practice helps

clarify, steady, and form a firm unshakable foundation

from which to live in the world. Any decisions about

our actions have more opportunity to arise from our

Higher Truth rather than our lower ego tendencies.

The path involves numerous trials and errors, but is

certainly effective as has been the experience of myself

and many many others on the path. _/\_ Tat

twam asi Uma

November 19, 2001

Blessed Self, Silent Soul How do we know

that we are on the right path and not fooling

ourselves? A very difficult question. I recently heard a talk

by a person who discovered ,after sending 28 years

with a 'Guru', that the 'Guru' was or had become a

fraud. The man's presentation was bitter. He was very

disappointed in his 'Guru'. But most of all, he was

disappointed in himself. He was disappointed that he had

suspended his own judgement and intuition and given

authority for his spiritual development to someone else. It

took 28 years for him to learn the lessons that we are

each responsible for our own spiritual attainment and

that we must each be rigorously honest with ourselves

(without being judgemental). A Guru is a guide and,

yes, we should do what the Guru asks without question.

But we should also be assessing our own actions and

thoughts to see if they bring us more peace and to see if

they accord with the teachings of Vedanta and the

sages. We should also be assessing the actions and

thoughts of our Guru or spiritual teachers to see if their

actions reflect their teachings and the teachings of

Vedanta and the sages. Personal responsibility

requires self-awareness, a fearless will to change and a

functional conscience, an attunement to what is 'good'. How

do we define 'good'? 'Good' is whatever turns your

conscious and subconscious mind, your intellect, ego,

emotions and heart toward God. 'Bad' is what turns those

aspects of yourself away from God. Sadhana

consists of selfless service to develop an open heart and

an open mind. Sadhana, according to Swami Sivananda

consists of "Serve. Love. Give. Purify. Meditate.

Realize." The yamas and the niyamas of Patanjali are a good

place to start. Om namah Sivaya Omprem

November 19, 2001

SilentSoul, >>But for this right

type of sadhna is required. Can you tell how we find

out that we are on the right path and not fooling

ourselves (like the priest)? There should be some criteria,

which will indicate we are doing right sadhna or

not?<< The fruits of the spirit are brought on by right

sadhna. These are love, joy, peace patience, kindness,

goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; there is

no law against such things. Further the

Master in The ADAVIATA BODHA DEEPIKA (the lamp of

nondual knowledge) "though the mind is hard to control it

must be subdued by the dispassion and effort even at

the cost of wringing your hands, clenching your teeth

and holding down the senses and limbs; it must be

accomplished by will-power. Therefore intense effort is

necessary for the purpose." (chapter 3,pg.51-51, verse

122-124) Wringing of hands and clinching of teeth;holding down

senses and limbs to me is indicative of prayer and

spiritual warfare (struggle within)and not against flesh

and blood. I have come to understand that "jihad"

also is this same struggle and not the world war that

Ben Laden has declared upon us all. Intense

effort (works in christianity) must be done, we have to

weigh our each and every thought against whatever us

true, honorable, right, pure, lovely, of good repute,

excellence and praise worthiness. If they match these

characteristics, then we must dwell on them and not the opposite

or negatives of them. The Master is

ultimately the Divine and His/Her words can be brought to us

be any number of people but the path is always

within ourselves individually. It does not matter

whether we follow Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed or the

Bob; they all direct us within. Thus, we can

know that the one who directs us change the outside to

fit some preconcieved idea is not right. When we

change the inside of us (our thoughts) then our body,

words and faith will follow and as we all become more

spiritually able, throught our growing faith in what is, we

will change the world, to withstand hardships, and to

see the divinity in others vicki

November 19, 2001

A very interesting discussion indeed, and a lot

already has been said. Looking within with the eyes of a

sadhaka, this is what one sees- "Who's

decent?" Being faced with that question, one immediately begins

the search outwards, why? to pronounce

judgement upon others? based upon what is apparent to

the immediate eye? Krishna said, "Gahano

Karmana gati"(the strands of Karma run very

deep)? When the lord himself, even after stating that he

knows(remembers) all the past of all beings, does NOT label anyone

as decent/indecent, WHO AM I TO JUDGE THE DECENCY OF

ANOTHER ??? wouldn't it be a futile excercise in

ego-fortification if--- when faced with such a question(who's

decent?), one begins to look outwards, when one enjoys a

comparisions between two or more other peoples' decencies akin

to a mental version of enjoying a tasty dish

! better still, when one begins to relish sounding

'better' than others in expounding

jnana(:-) All judgement, comparision arises out of an outlook

that percieves duality(good-bad, black-white,

high-low, in-out, mine-theirs, i-you,....) May Lord

Shiva bless all of us with the opening of the third eye

of non-duality which seeks and bestows(if posible!)

benefit for all, be it rama or ravana. well..,

returning to the topic, who is decent? atleast i am

not really

November 21, 2001

So friends, we had a very fruitful discussion on

this subject and our learned friends presented their

wise views freeely..Just to sum up Erica

brought out this point of who is (spirituallly) a decent

person and what should we do to protect ourselves

without harming others. SVCS was of the view that

we should not care for the state of decency and

start our sadhna to become decent slowly...she also

cited a story to show how not to harm while

protecting Dear vicky very wisely questioned if we see

decency/indecency in others are we not projecting our idea of

decency on others? Learned Omprem jee beautifully

explained that none of us is purely sattvic or tamsic (read

decent/indecent)..and at times we project certain gunas Dear

Tatwamasi brought another dimension to the thought telling

that decency and indecency is a relative term and we

can not really distinguish a person on this

aspect. And our dear Really_i_am totally refuted the idea of

decency bringing in the Advaita ...saying no one is good

or bad. But he lied to us that he himself is not

decent(which no one believed) (lol) Well friends let

us now see what shri Krishna himself said about

this. In chapter 16 (shlokas 1,2,3) shri Krishna

explained the qualities of a divine (read spiritually

decent) person. Abhayam Sattva....devimbhijatasya

bharata ! The Lord (Krishna) said," O Descendant

of Bharta (arjuna), Fearlessness purity

of heart steadiness in the yoga of

knowledge Charity Self-control Sacrifice Study of the vedas (books

of

knowledge) Austerity Up-rightness, Non-injury Truthfulness Absenc\

e of Anger Tranquility Freedom from

slander Kindness to living

beings Non-covetousness Gentleness Modesty Absence of

fickle-mindedness Boldness Forgiveness Fortitude Purity Absence

of Hatered Absence of Conceit these

are the qualities which belong to one born to

constitute divine wealth. So going by this, we all

have many decencies in us, and some qualities are

waiting to be manifested. Mother Nature is slowly

taking us towards total (Spiritual) Decency, but we can

speed up our progress by our Sadhna Let us all

continue our sadhna...and reach the goal of decency, as

described by Shri Krishna Let us wake up to the

TRUTH! Hari Aum

Who is decent??

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