Living Skillfully: part 1

January 26, 2002

Om Blessed Self, uma You ask the questions

that all serious spiritual seekers must ask and answer

for themselves. A favourite motto of my Guru, Swami

Vishnu Devananda, was “The answer lies within”.

You asked questions “about this "game" or lila of

life, that we HAVE to "play" because of our

incarnation. Who sets the rules of the game? Who enforces it?

What happens when people break those rules? How does

one deal with that?” Brahman not only sets

the rules but is the rules.The ‘rules’ of karma are

only continuous attempts to bring the consciousness of

the aspirant back to Brahman. When one breaks the

‘rules’, one is merely opened up to to new attempts to

show the futility of purposefully trying to disengage

from Brahman and imagining that you are the doer of

your actions. But specifically, you asked about

whether “murderers, rapists, swindlers cheats need to be

punished for their actions and held responsible?” You also

wondered, “does one pass over the disasters of our world,

Enron, earthquakes, volcanoes, terrorism, because that

too ultimately is maya?” But you answered your own

questions with your very next question: “Our bodies are

only maya, does one need to address the needs of the

body like food, shelter, etc?” As long as one

has a body and the other koshas surrounding an atman,

then one must act in accordance with the material

world so long as karmas bind that person to the world.

But (and this is the big but) if one’s awareness is

constantly with Brahman, then one will perform their duties

in the world but not take ownership of those duties.

The duties must still be performed because the person

still has some vestiges of karma to discharge and

because there are other less enlightened souls whose

matrix must be maintained so that they too can

eventually discharge karma and remain with Brahman. When the

person is both constantly with Brahman and has

discharged all of their karma, then he no longer has need of

a human body and enters mahasamadhi. This is the

turiya state of consciousness. So, getting back

to bin Laden and your other murderers, rapists,

swindlers and cheats, yes, those people must face the

karmic consequences of their actions, only part of

which, will consist of being subject to a particular

moral, ethical, judicial code. What is more interest

here is the karma of those who administer that code

(or, in the case of bin Laden, those who invent a code

against which to judge bin Laden). Yes, it is ok for the

US to seek to try bin Ladin. But it is not ok for

them to wage war to do so.There are other ways to

accomplish the same end. Of course, these ways take longer,

require more thought and wouldn’t fit with Bush’s Texas

frontier mentality. I don’t think anyone will say that

Bush, Powell, Rumsford, Ashcroft, Rice or the UK’s

Blair are Fully-Realized Beings, so they are condemned

to operate within a temporal world. But, it is their

motives that most important. If there is even a hint of

impure motive, for example, revenge, as there most

certainly is, then those people are not striving for

justice and are only creating karma for themselves and

the people of their nations. continued...

January 28, 2002

As I thank all those who have been responding to

this dialogue I continue to attempt to clarify the

elements of practice of the concepts of Advaita. I find it

to be a main issue in discussion with many young

sadhaks. Difficulty in understanding it's practice leads

to reactions that vary from defensive intellectulism

to a rejection of the concepts and others that lie

within the continuum. I used the example of Bin

laden because it is presently the most dramatic. Laws

are made to protect the survival of our incarnated

selves, as long as we have to incarnate. My question

simply put is, should regions/countries have laws to

protect that survival of members of society? Should

killings etc be punished in any manner? If your house was

broken into, or your kin murdered would you call the

police? Should men be held responsible in any way? If we

drive on a freeway, we need to follow the rules for

driving. Saying the trafic is Maya doesn't work. While

Paramahansa Yogananda was able to "miraculously" have his car

be driven for miles without gasoline, the driver

still had to follow road rules. >>If

there is even a hint of impure motive, for example,

revenge, as there most certainly is, then those people are

not striving for justice and are only creating karma

for themselves and the people of their

nations.>>> Are you saying is that it is alright to do what one

needs to in the temporal world as long as the

motivation is pure - for example a desire to protect. Is

that correct? I guess my consciousness is at a

place where I am not quite able to see how we can live

in a temporal world without the temporal tools. At

present I only see that the world is a reflection of

myself, with all its imperfections, and it is I who needs

to take responsibility for my actions thoughts and

feelings. That responsibility includes making sure I don't

support actions feelings which are hurtful and harmful to

fellow incarnates. Perhaps I will understand more some

day. Again, I pose this for all members of our

satsangh, not just to Ompremji's post. I know we

have many members who have been following this

dialogue. Please join in and share your thoughts.

_/\_ Tat twam asi Uma

January 28, 2002

My question simply put is, should

regions/countries have laws to protect that survival of members of

society? If you view the world as real - then yes

Laws should be made. If you do not see the world as

real, the author has already taken care of that. You

are just here to play the part. Is it you that are

playing the part or is God ( the Author) doing

it? Should killings etc be punished in any

manner? Same as above If your house was broken into,

or your kin murdered would you call the police?

I would appear to call the police - but I would see

God doing it, I would see God being the one that

killed my family. I would see God as being my family. I

would see myself as the emptiness out of which God and

this world arose from. Should men be held

responsible in any way? If you think you are an

individual the only answer you can come to is yes. But are

you an individual? If we drive on a freeway,

we need to follow the rules for driving. Saying the

trafic is Maya doesn't work. But surrendering to

God does. Then it is God's responsibility. Which it

has been all along. While Paramahansa

Yogananda was able to "miraculously" have his car be driven

for miles without gasoline, the driver still had to

follow road rules. Yoganandaji knew he was not

Yoganandaji - He was detached. To some I may sound

callous and unhelpful. If I can be accused of any desire

it would be to help my fellow man ( My Self) out of

suffering. It took cancer for me to be happy. I do not wish

that on any soul. If you see me as a fraud - God Bless

You. If you see me as anything but consciousness

talking to consciousness you will not understand me. If

you see me as consciousness then you will go to where

the words are pointing. You will go back to where you

came from. Where you have always been. The Self. And

until that Time God Bless You - Be kind to yourself -

Follow your Bliss - and do not take anything personally

- Love baba

January 29, 2002

If this world was made up of realized souls only,

then no laws would need be employed. All souls would

follow "spiritual law". However, that is not the case.

There are millions of people that see this world as

real, and live in it as such. They do not see beyond

the tip of their own noses, and therefore require

rules to live in this world. They require outside

sources of feedback: positive and negative. They require

outside sources to imprint their morals and ethics, and

they require outside sources for punishment. If left

to their own devices, what would this world be

like? It'd be like September 11th every day. With

love, Erica

January 29, 2002

Blessed Self, Uma You are an excellent

example of the advice of Swami Vishnu Devananda. “The

answer lies within.” Your posts note some seeming

conumdrums of advaita vedanta (i.e. if one knows that all

actions within a space-time continuum are Maya, does one

still have to deal with those events as if they were

real and if one’s actions are not free but inescapable

karmic consequences, should one be held responsible for

those actions) and then you ask for advice and opinions

on these questions. At the same time, you

very effectively answer your own questions when you

say, “If we drive on a freeway, we need to follow the

rules for driving. Saying the trafic is Maya doesn't

work.” Unless one has entered the final Turiya stage of

consciousness where he or she is in perpetual samadhi and

without the least trace of karmic residue, then one is

bound by Maya and must act within the limits of Maya.

(Incidentally, when one does enter the Turiya stage, they no

longer have need of a body and enter mahasamadhi shortly

after.) Outside of the Turiya stage, one may experience varying

grades of Self-Realization for varying amounts of time,

but that Self-Realization will be coloured by the

aspirant’s karmic load. The aspirant may have a

highly-developed sense of Maya as an illusion, but he or she has

that sense of Maya from within Maya. That sense of

Maya is somewhat intellectual and attempts to

communicate it are certainly intellectual and therefore

incomplete. And particularly incomplete and unhelpful are

those self-deluded attempts at sophistry that talk in

terms of surrendering to God so that everything becomes

God’s problem. That is an egotistical and tamasic

approach to the issues that you raise. Being bound

by Maya to any extent whatsoever means that the

person cannot step outside Maya and must act within the

appropriate parameters of his or her particular Maya.

Regardless of spiritual attainment, this means acting ‘as

if’ Maya were real. The person must go through their

daily life trying to maintain or develop a connection

with Brahman as their identity while simultaneously

living within the limits of the temporal world including

its cultural limits. A good way to do this is to

develop viveka and vairagya to such an extent that you

watch yourself moving through life as if you were

watching a movie while being aware all the time that your

true identity is not in the events of the movie nor in

the consciousness that perceives those events but in

the super-consciousness that forms the background for

the consciousness that is aware of the

movie. Om namah Sivaya Omprem

January 29, 2002

Blessed Self, Uma You asked if one is to

be held responsible for actions within Maya and, in

particular, you asked me “Are you saying is that it is

alright to do what one needs to in the temporal world as

long as the motivation is pure - for example a desire

to protect. Is that correct?” “what one needs

to” is the source of the problem. The western sense

of justice presupposes good and evil, guilt and

innocence, and punishment. Punishment usually entails

retribution, vengence, setting an example, and discouraging

the person from doing the action again. Punishment is

harsh, especially in the U.S. and often consists of

capital punishment (i.e. murder) or warehousing the

person in prison form long periods of time in order to

prevent him or her from being able to perform the actions

again on the general population. At the other end of

the continuum and one of many benefits of advaita

vedanta is that it does not have concepts of good or

evil, guilt or innocence. Instead, there is the concept

of whether a person is absorbed in Brahman or

whether he or she has yielded to desire and ego to stray

from Brahman and perform actions with a sense of

‘doership’ and with a sense of separation from

others. Sentencing a person who strays from Brahman should involve

efforts to reunite him or her with Brahman. Long terms in

a harsh jail climate are unlikely to do that.

Capital punishment does not do that. What comes closest

to reuniting the person with Brahman and softening

the hold of desire and ego, is the sentencing circles

of North America’s aboriginals where the victim, the

perpetrator, their families, and all who were directly

affected are brought together so that the perpetrator can

be reconnected with people, learn the harmful

effects of his or her actions and so that all can be

reconciled with each other. Bishop Tutu tried to do a

similar thing in South Africa as the white regime fell

from power with his Truth and Reconciliation

hearings. The problem for legal systems is that all the

participants, including judges, juries and attorneys must rise

above ego and desire just they expect the accused to do

or to have done. The problem lies in individuals and

societies taking responsibility for the spiritual

well-being of all concerned in a ‘crime’ including the

perpetrator. To do that there must be an effort by all

concerned to make sure that their consciousness is open,

serene, humble and tuned to the Absolute, however, they

choose to visualize It. If that attitude is there, then

their actions will reflect that Absolute. But this is a

very difficult thing to accomplish on a day-to-day

basis. Om namah Sivaya Omprem

February 1, 2002

<If you see me as a fraud - God Bless You.

> Post 3112 You lost me on this one, dear

baba. Have I ever said anything to you that gave the

impression that I see you as a fraud? <Karma can

be seen as the firing of arrows in to the air. >

Post 3091 I smile as I read this! I used the

analogy of arrows to teach my kids about karma and the

creative path of energy which is the basis of all. In fact

when one gets vigilant about it, one can see the

arrows return home very quickly. "Instant karma" is more

than a 60's cliche! Even now, (my kids are now teens)

all I have to do is say "Watch those arrows!", to

which they will grunt with annoyanace but become

vigilant about the energy arrows they are sending out.

<<And until that Time God Bless You - Be kind to

yourself - Follow your Bliss - and do not take anything

personally >> Had I taken anything personaly,

I probably wouldn't have lasted. I need your

blessings though. Can never have enough! I

understand what you are saying. I conclude from this

discussion, that we must do what we need to do as incarnated

individuals, knowing that it is not been done by our little

selves. At the same time, in my limited understanding, I

feel I must take personal responsibility for my

thoughts words and actions. In the card game of life,

while "God" may deal our hand, it is upto us how we

play it. Question .... I wonder if a society

is always to have the varnas .. the priests/realized

souls etc .. who think at the highest levels, and the

lawmakers, traders and workers who must think at the

manifested levels. Lawmakers have to identify with the

individual to make and enforce laws. Can't imagine advaitins

being lawmakers. Again .. thank you for your

presence. _/\_ Tat twam asi Uma

February 2, 2002

Dear Uma/Tatwasami, I saw your post to

Baba and your words: "..we must do what we need to do

as incarnated individuals, knowing that it is not

been done by our little selves..." I am having

some trouble following the conversations in this group

and remembering who said what, so forgive me if I

seem a little obtuse. But your words reminded me of

the teachings of Amma Anasuya Devi (known as the

Jillellamudi Mother). Here is a quote by Her: "If his GRACE is

not there, we do not exist. All actions are only by

HIS GRACE. In my view both joy and sorrow come from

HIS GRACE only. Every action however small is

performed by HIM, though we suppose that we are doing

either with our hands or with our minds, impelling us to

do the respective moments without our knowledge is

itself GRACE. GRACE is like wave in the ocean. When the

allotted moment arrives for the GRACE (to exist) the water

would itself become wave itself, Having arisen, it

grows like a mountain and dissolves. One wave appears

to be coming from somewhere. Another seems to have

arisen close by. After all wave means impact of wind on

water." (p. 55 "Waves of Bliss, I Am That I Am. So

Uma, when you say we must do what we need to do, I

think you've hit upon something very profound and

true..reminds me of another of Amma's says about doing "what

needs doing". How this all fits into free will,

motivation, responsibility, I am not even sure at this point.

I know that many feel we must be responsible or do

the reponsible/right thing, but who really is doing

the Doing? From all that I understand, Amma is

Advaita. Another excerpt from same little book, under "Mother's

Message": "I consider everything that is seen a THAT. Where

and what can specially be shown as God? These

men with their mental attitudes, these temples and

sheds, these trees, branches, creepers, and flowers with

various fragrances, the flora and founa, the whole

variety is THAT alone. All that is seen is nothing but

PARABRAHMA SWARUPA. Collectively it is called

'Parabrahma' and individually by different names. It is

not that God created this universe, but in my view

the creation itself God. So everything in the

creation looks the same to me. Whatever I see, whatever I

touch, whatever I hear or whatever I think, I feel

BLISSFUL. Everything is GOD. Bliss is to realise

that everything is THAT. Call it concentration or

Advaita or Samadhi or experience. It is the same. Inspite

of all the search, I could not find anything except

THAT." p. 55-56) Thank you for allowing me to be

part of this , Kathy

February 6, 2002

Thank you for the information provided in the

last paragraph of this post,Omprem,it is helpful to

remember. On another note,I am posting a link to sign an

online petition to save the clubs. with

Peace M <a href=http://www.petitiononline.com/calli/petition.html

target=new>http://www.petitiononline.com/calli/petition.html</a>

Sign In

Living Skillfully: part 1

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