Protecting ourselves

[Guest guest]

Blessed members,<br><br>I have posed this

question before but got few answers, so I pose it again

with the hopes that I can learn and understand. I am

very new and learning all the time. Please pardon me

if I sound, in any way, ignorant or disrespectful.

This is not my intent.<br><br>I have come to notice

that, in general, the Hindus I have met are passive

people. I am sure this stems from honoring the concept of

ahisma (non-violence). Perhaps it is also cultural. I am

wondering if someone can explain to me the benefits of

being passive. <br><br>True, we do not want to harm

others. We want to love others and see God everywhere, in

everything. But the cruel fact is that others do not want to

love us all of the time; there are people out there

that want to hurt us in one way or another. When we

lay down and allow them to hurt us, are we really

helping anyone? We certainly aren't helping ourselves,

and we are not helping those that are hurting us.

<br><br>It would be silly for us to leave our front door

unlocked at night with a sign attached saying, "Robbers,

please come in and take what you like!" We would not

consider leaving our most precious jewelry out in the

middle of the street. Why, then, do we leave the door to

our own well-being wide open for people to come in

and do as they will? <br><br>People have told me that

all is God's will. I can understand this concept, but

does God really want us to be so passive? God resides

in each and every one of us, so how can we not honor

that? Is it okay to allow others to abuse the God in

us, with the thought that we can not dishonor the God

in them?<br><br>It's true that we can not worry

about others, and we must worry about ourselves and our

own development. However, I feel that if we allow

others to think we are weak in our values or beliefs,

then we only do ourselves a disservice. When people

see complacency, they see weakness, and when they see

weakness, they see the opportunity to overtake. If we stand

up for ourselves in a calm, rational, polite,

respectful way, are we doing ourselves any sort of

disservice? What are the negative implications there? People

will pick, pick, pick, if they think their actions are

in any way fruitful. When we show them respectfully

that no, they are getting nowhere with us, they back

down and go look for their next

"victim".<br><br>Furthermore, who is teaching whom? If I show someone that it

is not okay to take advantage of my gentle nature,

will they be less likely to try to hurt someone else?

<br><br>Please help me to understand this concept as it has been

troubling me for some time now. I would like to find the

balance here.<br><br>With love,<br>Erica

[Guest guest]

Dear Erica,<br><br>I think in Advaita the

thought/idea/concept/teaching/whatever is that God is the Do-ER or everything.

Amma

Anasuya Devi said similarly, if I am reading Her

teachings correctly (or her words translated

accurately)--but I think this is something at a very high level of

awareness. And I do think/suspect there are many layers of

awareness/truth...and we are not all at the same exact level or

ability/comprehension or whatever. Now I know my Christian friends

would say that God gives us free will, and many people

do feel this, but I think Advaita would say that

even the thought to do something a certain way..well

that thought was put into our head by the "Do-Er". One

time I had a conversation with a friend of mine and I

remember her saying that she felt like we were just like

puppets. <br><br>I suppose one could go nuts trying to

figure this one out, and the only thing I've been able

to come up with about all this is that there are

many layers of truth; perhaps the same is so in

interpreting/understanding so much of this which we call life.<br><br>Kathy

[Guest guest]

Thank you Erica for defending the basic

principles of the clubs. Now I for one do not think Hindus

are passive. They can be very aggressive especially

in the defense of their beliefs. We have to defend

ourselves and we have to aggressively defend the principles

we believe in. If we do not have that conviction and

passion how can we expect others to have it?<br><br>God

does not expect us to be passive. When you are faced

with evil you should destroy the evil. But the

messages of wakeinbliss cannot be classified as evil. I

have had similar discussions with some of my friends

who are not Hindus. After a lot of heated discussions

we all agree to disagree. Since we are friends we do

not have such discussions again.<br><br>Wakeinbliss

must really believe in his point of view. If we agree

with him we would even call it the courage of

conviction. Otherwise he would not have come and posted all

these messages when he knows that everyone will come

down like a ton of bricks on him. I saw the web site

he was referring to. Basically they believe that the

American or Western way of life is threatened by the

introduction of many practices and beliefs from

Hinduism/Buddhism. I can understand that as many of us Indians also

feel that our way of life is threatened by

American/Western practices. Some of the Indians go to the extent

of even saying that Christianity is western and

alien to Indian culture. What our people and

wakeinbliss seems to forget is that Christianity is also an

eastern religion. Lord Jesus was a Jew of Middle Eastern

origin as were all his disciples. Right now there is a

hue and cry in India about Valentine's Day and how it

is against Indian culture. I understand the

motivations or reasons of both these groups. I have tried to

change the view of my Indian friends with little

success.<br><br>Coming to the question of defending ourselves do you

feel threatened by his messages? <br>I personally do

not feel so. You have done well to state your beliefs

and what the club stands for. But I do not think you

can change his belief. On the other hand he feels

threatened. He thinks he is fighting against Evil. He

believes he is a crusader.<br><br>I have fought message

battles in other clubs about schools of thought in

Hinduism. But I have learnt that you cannot change the

conviction of anyone through these messages. You state your

point of view and rest. The founders of the club could

have removed him and banned him. But again does it

serve any purpose?<br><br>You should be gentle. But you

should not allow others to take advantage of you or hurt

you. You have to defend yourself and your

convictions/beliefs. The term "Saatvic" does not mean cowardice. The

Buddhist Monks were the ones who were masters of Kung Fu

and Karate. But you should not be very sensitive to

these verbal barrages. You have to not only close your

doors but also double lock them and turn on the burglar

alarm to ensure that burglars do not steal your

valuable possessions. Similarly double lock your mind to

prevent bad thoughts and also turn your internal alarm on

to warn you about the bad

thoughts.<br><br><br><br>Jai MAA KAALI !!!<br><br>Sankar

[Guest guest]

Sankar,<br><br>Thank you so much for posting your

views. Actually, I agree with you 100% in the things you

have said. I am strong in my conviction, and honor

those that are strong in their own beliefs. No matter

to me if theirs agrees with mine. I have always said

that it is better to believe in something rather than

nothing. Every path is valid in my eyes (as long as we

don't hurt others).<br><br>Maybe it is because I am an

"outsider" to the Hindu culture that I do not see others

saying much aloud. It seems to me that people are

generally quiet, and don't say much. Maybe it is me? Maybe

people don't discuss these issues with me because I am

"a Westerner"? Please help me to understand.

<br><br>I did not mean to imply that Hindus are weak in

their conviction; no. I have learnt quite the opposite!

The Hindus I know are some of the most loving and

compassionate folks I've met. Please understand that I am

speaking only from love, and from a yearning to

understand. Someone give me a culture lesson! <br><br>With

love,<br>Erica

[Guest guest]

Hmm. Amazing how the universe works sometimes.

Just as I left our club here, I stumbled upon this

news

article:<br><br><a

href=http://story.news./news?tmpl=story&cid=516&u=/ap/20020213/ap_on_re\

_as/india_valentine_s_day_8

target=new>http://story.news./news?tmpl=story&cid=516&u=/ap/20020213/ap\

_on_re_as/i

ndia_valentine_s_day_8</a><br><br>Right way, wrong way, no matter who we're

talking

about!<br><br>Erica

[Guest guest]

I absolutely here agree with u. It does also

become our duty to mankind, to give a clear,yet well

composed message to mankind that .......life is not to be

abusive.<br>Neither to give it, NOR to accept it. <br> <br>This

should be done in quiet yet firm methods, and shud also

be elaborated on making a clear, rational, yet

composed topic out of this.<br> Only when such a topic is

elaborated on, it leaves mankind with food for the thinking.

<br><br>It is the awakening of such thinking,that becomes

help to us ourselves, as well as help to mankind,

which is a primarily duty of each and everyone.<br>

<br>Also we shud not only be dealing with only the

problems of our own. The fact stays that we shud also be

addressing situations of INJUSTICE.<br><br>With love and

regards, <br>Nisha.

[Guest guest]

Well said Sankar! Certainly couldn't have said it

better. <br><br>A couple of additional thoughts.

<br><br>What is important is to remember the motivation behind

what we say. If the purpose of expressing ourselves is

to try and convince someone, it begins to involve

expectations, and depending on the response of the others, the

potential of annoyance or anger etc is ressurected.

<br><br>If however one can keep the purpose as simple

sharing of knowledge, expertise, information insights and

experience, allowing people to receive what they will,

directly or indirectly, expectations, fulfilled or

unfulfilled, don't cloud such interactions. This kind of

expression of ideas is especially useful in a forum like

ours. <br><br>There is also a difference between

aggressiveness and assertiveness. I think sometimes that is not

understood. <br><br>What do you all think?<br><br>_/\_ Tat

twam asi<br><br>Uma

[Guest guest]

The messages from the club make me think and also

do some soul searching. Thank you Erica, Tatwamasi

and all. Erica! You should not feel that people do

not discuss these issues with you because you are a

westerner. Rarely do people discuss religion or

spirituality. These are considered subjects, which are

delicate. I remember being told not to discuss religion and

politics in parties.<br><br> I have been able to express

my views freely only because of the great medium of

the Internet and clubs. <br><br>But people with

similar interests do discuss their common interests. I

can only quote from my ownexperience. When we have

international banking seminars we all feel at home wherever you

are from because we are all bankers All the news

letters I get about web development and computers are

from U.S.A. But we all do the same work and share the

common concern. A hard disk crash or problem of shutdown

in Windows 98 is the same for everyone whether you

are in U.S.A or in Timbuktu. In the same way all

spiritual seekers have a common interest and common

problems. There is no Westerner or Indian in

that.<br><br>All spiritual seekers have many questions. Even if

you have a Guru you may not be able to get answers to

all the questions. Fortunately many Acharyas have

written books where you may be able to find

answers.<br><br><br>To find answers to many of your questions I would

suggest the following books.<br><br>1.Towards Goal

Supreme (Paramartha Prasanga)- Swami Vajrananda - Advaita

Ashrama- An excellent book which is based on questions

raised by seekers. This is a small book, which I would

suggest you buy immediately<br><br>To quote Christopher

Isherwood in his forward to the book<br><br>"Religious

sentiment is seldom, if ever, aroused by intellectual

argument alone, nearly always by example and some kind of

personal contact. True spirituality is very infectious. A

teacher's own life and faith speak much more loudly than

his words. And that is why I recommend the

"Paramartha Prasanga "<br><br>2. Sadhana - Swami Sivananda-

An exhaustive book on different kinds of

Sadhana.<br><br>3. Adventures in Spiritual life - Swami

Yatiswarananda - Sri Ramakrishna math<br><br>and of course

<br><br>The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna - where you get all

answers whatever may be your marga and also full of

stories.<br><br>I am sure many of our members who are advanced

Sadhakas will suggest books by Great Acharyas which can

help guide a seeker.<br><br>By the way talking about

books you should read the novel Magnificent Obsession

by Lloyd C. Douglas. This is the book, which lifted

up the spirit of the American people after the stock

market crash of 1930s. You will find copies of the book

on the net, as it is a collector's item.<br><br>I

remember once when I was trekking in the Himalayas I took

shelter in a small cave from the rain. There I was, in a

place all alone far from anywhere with the evening

setting in and a long trek ahead of me. But I looked at

the mountains and felt so great that I cannot

describe it. So calm, peaceful etc. fantastic experience.

The spiritual Adventure is like that. <br><br>You

have a doubt. Listen to Jim Reeves<br><br>Take my hand

, precious Lord <br><br>or read the

poem<br><br>Lead kindly light, amidst the encircling

gloom,<br>Lead thou me on - Paul Newman<br><br>Take refuge in

God. he will show you the way.<br><br>Sankar

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much Sankar for your recent posts.

I have been learning a lot from them. I will

definitely add your book suggestions to my (ever-growing and

quite extensive) reading list.<br><br>I heartily agree

with you when you say, "A hard disk crash or problem

of shutdown in Windows 98 is the same for everyone

whether you are in U.S.A or in Timbuktu." Unfortunately,

others do not always see things this way. In a way, it

is natural for humans to distinguish between us and

others that are not like us. We are not comfortable with

that which we do not understand. It is much easier for

people to stereotype me as an American rather than as a

true seeker. (Media makes this much easier, but that's

another topic all together!) I am glad to see that it is

not just me then. Even in my culture, few people

discuss religion/spirituality. However, I figured that

(since we are here in a spiritual club) we would be a

bit more open amongst our like-minded friends here. I

agree we discuss a delicate subject here; I believe if

we sometimes venture into the conventionally

uncomfortable it can only make us stronger. (I guess I have

experienced this first hand.) I also believe if we can

express our views intelligently, it forces us to evaluate

where we are and truely understand ourselves and where

we are headed.<br><br>To quote one of my favorite

folk artists, Ani DiFranco, "Ya hit what ya head for;

ya get what you ask."<br><br>I'm trying to aim

towards Divinity. <br><br>With love and

respect,<br>Erica