What is an "Avatar" & Upasini Baba's and Meher Baba's sayings.

[Guest guest]

I have been going through the discussion regarding women avatars. I

find it shocking that views which are basically against the tenets of

Hinduism is being expressed. Earlier in the discussions on marriage

the member had quoted Sankaracharya to denigrate women.

 

I am a Saktha. For people who are not familiar with the term Sakthas

are people who believe in God as a female principle. The basic text

of Sakthism is Devi Mahatmyam.

The Saktha religion is older than most of the other forms of Hindu

religion. This is one of the six religions, which merged to form what

is known as Hinduism in the 6th or 7th century. There are millions of

followers of Sakthism in India mainly in Bengal, Tamil Nadu,

Rajasthan, Assam and Gujarat. Even the idea of the female form some

how being inferior to the male form is atrocious when our god is

Female.

 

The discussion seems to center around the sayings of Meher Baba.

Maher Baba was a saint who was very popular in Western India and the

West. For his followers He may be god. Similarly there are many

followers of Rama Devi in Kerala and Karnataka who consider her as

God. They have temples for her.

 

According to the Puranas there are only Ten Avatars of Vishnu. Even

here we distinguish between ordinary and Poorna avatar. Krishna is

considered the only Poorna avatar. There are followers of Spiritual

Gurus who call their guru as an Avatar of so and so God. Some gurus

themselves make this claim. But this is a recent phenomenon. No one

called Drona, Bhishma, Parasara, Adi Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya or

Madhavacharya an avatar. Can any of the new so-called avatars claim

that they are better than these? How come there were no avatars till

the 17th century?

 

That is why we have coined a term called God men/God women.

 

The days of the real Rishis, Maharishis and avatars are in the long

past. Even Adi Sankaracharya was not called a Maharshi.

 

Many people believe that Meher Baba, Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai

Baba, Amma Anusuya devi, Sri Ramakrishna, Ramana maharshi and a host

of others past and present to be God. Some of these have called

themselves god. But the problem arises only when you want everyone to

believe that. The sayings of these gods/goddesses are the sayings of

God for their followers. But not for everyone. A majority of the

Hindus in India do not believe in any of these gods. All these

men/women are believed to be great saints and their sayings are

always seen as guiding principles only and not the voice of god.

 

For the millions of Sakthas the quotation of Meher Baba seems

incorrect to say the least. Sathish believes him to be an avatar. But

do not expect most of us who have never heard of him before to

believe in that. The club devoted to sadhnaa is not the forum for

expressing male chauvinistic ideas. You can quote any number of

people/scriptures to buttress your arguments. The quotations only

reveal the extent to which the canker of male chauvinism is prevalent

among the Hindus even among the saints.

These ideas encourage horrible practices like Female infanticide and

Bride burning.

 

Jai MAA KAALI !!!

 

Sankar

[Guest guest]

, sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote:

> I have been going through the discussion regarding women avatars. I

> find it shocking that views which are basically against the tenets

of

> Hinduism is being expressed. Earlier in the discussions on marriage

> the member had quoted Sankaracharya to denigrate women.

>

> I am a Saktha. For people who are not familiar with the term

Sakthas

> are people who believe in God as a female principle. The basic text

> of Sakthism is Devi Mahatmyam.

> The Saktha religion is older than most of the other forms of Hindu

> religion. This is one of the six religions, which merged to form

what

> is known as Hinduism in the 6th or 7th century. There are millions

of

> followers of Sakthism in India mainly in Bengal, Tamil Nadu,

> Rajasthan, Assam and Gujarat. Even the idea of the female form some

> how being inferior to the male form is atrocious when our god is

> Female.

>

> The discussion seems to center around the sayings of Meher Baba.

> Maher Baba was a saint who was very popular in Western India and

the

> West. For his followers He may be god. Similarly there are many

> followers of Rama Devi in Kerala and Karnataka who consider her as

> God. They have temples for her.

>

> According to the Puranas there are only Ten Avatars of Vishnu. Even

> here we distinguish between ordinary and Poorna avatar. Krishna is

> considered the only Poorna avatar. There are followers of Spiritual

> Gurus who call their guru as an Avatar of so and so God. Some gurus

> themselves make this claim. But this is a recent phenomenon. No one

> called Drona, Bhishma, Parasara, Adi Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya

or

> Madhavacharya an avatar. Can any of the new so-called avatars claim

> that they are better than these? How come there were no avatars

till

> the 17th century?

>

> That is why we have coined a term called God men/God women.

>

> The days of the real Rishis, Maharishis and avatars are in the

long

> past. Even Adi Sankaracharya was not called a Maharshi.

>

> Many people believe that Meher Baba, Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai

> Baba, Amma Anusuya devi, Sri Ramakrishna, Ramana maharshi and a

host

> of others past and present to be God. Some of these have called

> themselves god. But the problem arises only when you want everyone

to

> believe that. The sayings of these gods/goddesses are the sayings

of

> God for their followers. But not for everyone. A majority of the

> Hindus in India do not believe in any of these gods. All these

> men/women are believed to be great saints and their sayings are

> always seen as guiding principles only and not the voice of god.

>

> For the millions of Sakthas the quotation of Meher Baba seems

> incorrect to say the least. Sathish believes him to be an avatar.

But

> do not expect most of us who have never heard of him before to

> believe in that. The club devoted to sadhnaa is not the forum for

> expressing male chauvinistic ideas. You can quote any number of

> people/scriptures to buttress your arguments. The quotations only

> reveal the extent to which the canker of male chauvinism is

prevalent

> among the Hindus even among the saints.

> These ideas encourage horrible practices like Female infanticide

and

> Bride burning.

>

> Jai MAA KAALI !!!

>

> Sankar

Dear Sankar, I am thankfull to you that you have beutifully

explained Purnavatar and all. Shankar, I am fully aware about 64

Sidha, and 9 Nath tradition; also about Dash Mahavidyas.I agree in to

to that mother worship cult is very ancient, probably than Vedic.If

you may recall, I had tried to explain in this very forum that Adi

Sankaracharya was NOT against female's superior position. I had used

his "Nari Narkasya dwarum" to alligorically state that "doors are

essential, not only to enter into but to find an exit.Thus upto this

point, and about being only 10 avatars, I agree.As for Meher Baba,

since God is One, therefore He can be identified by any Name, form

sex of any one's inclination.Neither I, nor Meher baba Himself

asserted to believe Him. He simply said( not said because He had been

observing silence since 1925 till 1969, his death), that "LOVE GOD"

As about not discussing all this in this group, I take it as your

command..and not discuss or argue. I shall simply keep quite.

Will that be ok then..and for Kathy too...?

love..and lots of it

Satish

[Guest guest]

Namaste Satish,

 

Please do not feel as if you must "keep quiet" in our group. Everyone

is strongly encouraged to express his or her own opinion at any time.

Personally, I find it interesting to hear others views and

experiences. I feel they enhance my own. I am sure others feel the

same.

 

Blessings and love,

Erica

[Guest guest]

Dear Erica, i dont want to hurt any one, and cosider each and every

one as respectable as God Himself. I have tried to percieve HIM in

evrything and everywhere.I dont wish to be an instrument of commotion.

To me not only Meher Baba,but every soul IS GOD. So i just tried to

obey Sankar's saying labeling me as "female antagonist"

love.. I shall be sharing and posting now

Satish

[Guest guest]

Dear Sankar,

 

Thank you for your post. You had written: "The club devoted to

sadhnaa is not the forum for expressing male chauvinisitic ideas",

and "the quotations only reveal the extent to which the canker of

male chauvinism is prevalent among Hindus even among the saints."

 

I would really like to study the book from which Satish quoted very

carefully, but unfortunately, don't really have the time to become

very pedantic and scholarly. I suspect, though, that if what he said

was a true quote by Meher Baba, that possibly Meher Baba was speaking

about some particular function of The Divine. It is interesting to

note how you mention that the word "avatar" has been coined fairly

recently. It seems people LOVE to put things into little boxes with

titles or names or whatever.

 

All these "distinctions" and "separations" can really alienate people

or turn them off. What you write about various saints being "God" to

some and not to others is probably true. I believe it was Mother

Meera who said that people have different temperaments and therefore

need different teachers.

 

About the chauvinism and patriarchal attitudes: this one can even

see/read about in Buddhism, etc. Perhaps that is why there presently

are a number of Divine Mothers on earth at this time: to help bring

back the Feminine and tenderness and help people connect more fully

to/with this. I remember at one darshan of Karunamayi how She

stressed how wonderfully loving the Mother is...She mentioned the

Father, but with Mother, well, the Mother really really listens and

is there for Her children (I don't remember Her exact words, but I

think you get the gist of it). Personally, I think using various

words such as 'avatar' can really cause separateness to some

degree..and that is why I suspect that one would really have to read

MUCH of Meher Baba and the entire chapter that that was taken from to

get the full import. Satish, can I ask you to please quote, say from

the 2-3 pages BEFORE that statement is made?

 

I may not be able to get ahold of the book, but my feeling at this

point is that Baba maybe was speaking about a particular functioning,

and maybe a male body is more suitable for this, but I really

question if he meant to imply that somehow it is better or more

evolved than the functioning of a saint or master or prophet, etc..in

a FEMALE body.

 

Blessings,

 

Kathy

-- In , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote:

> I have been going through the discussion regarding women avatars. I

> find it shocking that views which are basically against the tenets

of

> Hinduism is being expressed. Earlier in the discussions on marriage

> the member had quoted Sankaracharya to denigrate women.

>

> I am a Saktha. For people who are not familiar with the term

Sakthas

> are people who believe in God as a female principle. The basic text

> of Sakthism is Devi Mahatmyam.

> The Saktha religion is older than most of the other forms of Hindu

> religion. This is one of the six religions, which merged to form

what

> is known as Hinduism in the 6th or 7th century. There are millions

of

> followers of Sakthism in India mainly in Bengal, Tamil Nadu,

> Rajasthan, Assam and Gujarat. Even the idea of the female form some

> how being inferior to the male form is atrocious when our god is

> Female.

>

> The discussion seems to center around the sayings of Meher Baba.

> Maher Baba was a saint who was very popular in Western India and

the

> West. For his followers He may be god. Similarly there are many

> followers of Rama Devi in Kerala and Karnataka who consider her as

> God. They have temples for her.

>

> According to the Puranas there are only Ten Avatars of Vishnu. Even

> here we distinguish between ordinary and Poorna avatar. Krishna is

> considered the only Poorna avatar. There are followers of Spiritual

> Gurus who call their guru as an Avatar of so and so God. Some gurus

> themselves make this claim. But this is a recent phenomenon. No one

> called Drona, Bhishma, Parasara, Adi Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya

or

> Madhavacharya an avatar. Can any of the new so-called avatars claim

> that they are better than these? How come there were no avatars

till

> the 17th century?

>

> That is why we have coined a term called God men/God women.

>

> The days of the real Rishis, Maharishis and avatars are in the

long

> past. Even Adi Sankaracharya was not called a Maharshi.

>

> Many people believe that Meher Baba, Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai

> Baba, Amma Anusuya devi, Sri Ramakrishna, Ramana maharshi and a

host

> of others past and present to be God. Some of these have called

> themselves god. But the problem arises only when you want everyone

to

> believe that. The sayings of these gods/goddesses are the sayings

of

> God for their followers. But not for everyone. A majority of the

> Hindus in India do not believe in any of these gods. All these

> men/women are believed to be great saints and their sayings are

> always seen as guiding principles only and not the voice of god.

>

> For the millions of Sakthas the quotation of Meher Baba seems

> incorrect to say the least. Sathish believes him to be an avatar.

But

> do not expect most of us who have never heard of him before to

> believe in that. The club devoted to sadhnaa is not the forum for

> expressing male chauvinistic ideas. You can quote any number of

> people/scriptures to buttress your arguments. The quotations only

> reveal the extent to which the canker of male chauvinism is

prevalent

> among the Hindus even among the saints.

> These ideas encourage horrible practices like Female infanticide

and

> Bride burning.

>

> Jai MAA KAALI !!!

>

> Sankar

[Guest guest]

Dear Satish,

 

No, please do not keep quiet. Instead, please DO post what Baba said

2-3 pages BEFORE what you had quoted in your post from the book you

mentioned. I would really like to see this.

 

So Meher Baba was in silence for many years? So when did he talk

about avatars? And can you give me his definition of what exactly

constitutes "avatar" or being an avatar (i.e., what it means, etc).

 

??

 

Many thanks,

 

Kathy

 

-- In , safar_x <no_reply> wrote:

> , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote:

> > I have been going through the discussion regarding women avatars.

I

> > find it shocking that views which are basically against the

tenets

> of

> > Hinduism is being expressed. Earlier in the discussions on

marriage

> > the member had quoted Sankaracharya to denigrate women.

> >

> > I am a Saktha. For people who are not familiar with the term

> Sakthas

> > are people who believe in God as a female principle. The basic

text

> > of Sakthism is Devi Mahatmyam.

> > The Saktha religion is older than most of the other forms of

Hindu

> > religion. This is one of the six religions, which merged to form

> what

> > is known as Hinduism in the 6th or 7th century. There are

millions

> of

> > followers of Sakthism in India mainly in Bengal, Tamil Nadu,

> > Rajasthan, Assam and Gujarat. Even the idea of the female form

some

> > how being inferior to the male form is atrocious when our god is

> > Female.

> >

> > The discussion seems to center around the sayings of Meher Baba.

> > Maher Baba was a saint who was very popular in Western India and

> the

> > West. For his followers He may be god. Similarly there are many

> > followers of Rama Devi in Kerala and Karnataka who consider her

as

> > God. They have temples for her.

> >

> > According to the Puranas there are only Ten Avatars of Vishnu.

Even

> > here we distinguish between ordinary and Poorna avatar. Krishna

is

> > considered the only Poorna avatar. There are followers of

Spiritual

> > Gurus who call their guru as an Avatar of so and so God. Some

gurus

> > themselves make this claim. But this is a recent phenomenon. No

one

> > called Drona, Bhishma, Parasara, Adi Sankaracharya,

Ramanujacharya

> or

> > Madhavacharya an avatar. Can any of the new so-called avatars

claim

> > that they are better than these? How come there were no avatars

> till

> > the 17th century?

> >

> > That is why we have coined a term called God men/God women.

> >

> > The days of the real Rishis, Maharishis and avatars are in the

> long

> > past. Even Adi Sankaracharya was not called a Maharshi.

> >

> > Many people believe that Meher Baba, Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai

> > Baba, Amma Anusuya devi, Sri Ramakrishna, Ramana maharshi and a

> host

> > of others past and present to be God. Some of these have called

> > themselves god. But the problem arises only when you want

everyone

> to

> > believe that. The sayings of these gods/goddesses are the sayings

> of

> > God for their followers. But not for everyone. A majority of the

> > Hindus in India do not believe in any of these gods. All these

> > men/women are believed to be great saints and their sayings are

> > always seen as guiding principles only and not the voice of god.

> >

> > For the millions of Sakthas the quotation of Meher Baba seems

> > incorrect to say the least. Sathish believes him to be an avatar.

> But

> > do not expect most of us who have never heard of him before to

> > believe in that. The club devoted to sadhnaa is not the forum for

> > expressing male chauvinistic ideas. You can quote any number of

> > people/scriptures to buttress your arguments. The quotations only

> > reveal the extent to which the canker of male chauvinism is

> prevalent

> > among the Hindus even among the saints.

> > These ideas encourage horrible practices like Female infanticide

> and

> > Bride burning.

> >

> > Jai MAA KAALI !!!

> >

> > Sankar

> Dear Sankar, I am thankfull to you that you have beutifully

> explained Purnavatar and all. Shankar, I am fully aware about 64

> Sidha, and 9 Nath tradition; also about Dash Mahavidyas.I agree in

to

> to that mother worship cult is very ancient, probably than Vedic.If

> you may recall, I had tried to explain in this very forum that Adi

> Sankaracharya was NOT against female's superior position. I had

used

> his "Nari Narkasya dwarum" to alligorically state that "doors are

> essential, not only to enter into but to find an exit.Thus upto

this

> point, and about being only 10 avatars, I agree.As for Meher Baba,

> since God is One, therefore He can be identified by any Name, form

> sex of any one's inclination.Neither I, nor Meher baba Himself

> asserted to believe Him. He simply said( not said because He had

been

> observing silence since 1925 till 1969, his death), that "LOVE GOD"

> As about not discussing all this in this group, I take it as your

> command..and not discuss or argue. I shall simply keep quite.

> Will that be ok then..and for Kathy too...?

> love..and lots of it

> Satish