Guest guest Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the subject noted above. "Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya, of inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas and Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But Dronacharya refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol of Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure, untained with ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to be his Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after later, one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast found Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that Eklavya was better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part of the story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb cut off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was glad to offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his hard learnt skill.,,," Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual Path likewise. with love from Satish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2002 Report Share Posted August 17, 2002 -Dear Satish, Thank you for your efforts to explain, but sometimes my brain can be quite dense. Could you please kindly explain this according to your 'interpretation' of this tale? >From what I read, this person made a mud idol, became very proficient at archery, but then lost his thumb as an 'offering' to the Divine and could not longer continue with his skill. As I have said before, I have difficulty sometimes comprehending the full import of stories such as these, and would appreciate your "take" or "spin" or "interpretation" of what you feel the meaning of this story is. >From what I can decipher, he had an aspiration, became skilled, and then lost the skill because of his offering to The Divine. Somehow I feel you are saying this story teaches the importance of a Guru/teacher, but somehow I have missed it or the point? Can you clarify further? Thank you, Kathy @}-->--- -- In , safar_x <no_reply> wrote: > A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the > subject noted above. > "Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya, of > inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared > before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas and > Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But Dronacharya > refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste > elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not > accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol of > Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure, untained with > ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to be his > Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after later, > one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast found > Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that Eklavya was > better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part of the > story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb cut > off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was glad to > offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his hard > learnt skill.,,," > Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual Path > likewise. > with love from > Satish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2002 Report Share Posted August 17, 2002 Dear Kathy and other dear ones, The message of the story is very well understood by Kathy. This is THE ASPIRATION FROM WITHIN AND DIVINE GRACE ANSWERING IT. That is why God/Guru dwell within because of Their Omnipresence. Love to all Satish , celestial_saraswati <no_reply> wrote: > -Dear Satish, > > Thank you for your efforts to explain, but sometimes my brain can be > quite dense. Could you please kindly explain this according to > your 'interpretation' of this tale? > > From what I read, this person made a mud idol, became very proficient > at archery, but then lost his thumb as an 'offering' to the Divine > and could not longer continue with his skill. As I have said before, > I have difficulty sometimes comprehending the full import of stories > such as these, and would appreciate your "take" or "spin" > or "interpretation" of what you feel the meaning of this story is. > From what I can decipher, he had an aspiration, became skilled, and > then lost the skill because of his offering to The Divine. Somehow I > feel you are saying this story teaches the importance of a > Guru/teacher, but somehow I have missed it or the point? Can you > clarify further? > > Thank you, > > Kathy > > @}-->--- > -- In , safar_x <no_reply> wrote: > > A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the > > subject noted above. > > "Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya, of > > inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared > > before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas and > > Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But Dronacharya > > refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste > > elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not > > accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol of > > Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure, untained > with > > ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to be > his > > Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after > later, > > one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast > found > > Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that Eklavya > was > > better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part of > the > > story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb cut > > off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was glad > to > > offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his hard > > learnt skill.,,," > > Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual Path > > likewise. > > with love from > > Satish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 I am the practitioner of the satvic kaulic tantram, to my knowledge (which is very little), many tantras from sri vidya, kumara tantram, kaula tantram, agamic tantram, bhairava agamic tantram and nigama niyanam and tantram are encypted. This is so that the tantra not go in the wrong hands and by misused; therefore a guru is there who decides wether the student is worthy of the true knowledge and passes this to them. As for this guru is god there is a reason, we perceive the dieites at time as the supreme divinity, but they are a perceivable form that only directs one to the level of the supreme divinity in saying so the guru often is used for that same purpose thus this saying. The mahanirvana tantram, kularnava tantram and tantrarajatantram clearly point out the importance of the guru and in saying so the new question is that how does one get the right master? I mean there isnt a supermarket where you can hand pick a guru. Well this part is easy, if one gains enough merits and does extreme worship of the diety of one's choice to a level where they give the saddhak their vision. Then the person reads the guru gita later having a vision of the guru. Regards, Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 Dear Kalila, You have nicely said about a Guru'a part in spiritual Path. As you are a Kaula Tantra practitioner,I dare ask you one question which has been occupying my mind for about a year. The question is,"If all tantric dieties are worshipped as MOTHER or SHAKTI, why ten mahavidyas have a suffix of VIDYAS ?". Kindly take my question as an honest attepmt to understand the accademic aspect, not Sadhna. Love Satish , Kalika Putra <dakinic_monk> wrote: > > I am the practitioner of the satvic kaulic tantram, to my knowledge (which is very little), many tantras from sri vidya, kumara tantram, kaula tantram, agamic tantram, bhairava agamic tantram and nigama niyanam and tantram are encypted. > > This is so that the tantra not go in the wrong hands and by misused; therefore a guru is there who decides wether the student is worthy of the true knowledge and passes this to them. > > As for this guru is god there is a reason, we perceive the dieites at time as the supreme divinity, but they are a perceivable form that only directs one to the level of the supreme divinity in saying so the guru often is used for that same purpose thus this saying. > > The mahanirvana tantram, kularnava tantram and tantrarajatantram clearly point out the importance of the guru and in saying so the new question is that how does one get the right master? I mean there isnt a supermarket where you can hand pick a guru. > > Well this part is easy, if one gains enough merits and does extreme worship of the diety of one's choice to a level where they give the saddhak their vision. Then the person reads the guru gita later having a vision of the guru. > > Regards, > > > > > Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 But Satish...the devotee lost his thumb...was this grace? I still am not clear on this!!! ??? Can you further elucideate/clarify/explain..? Thank you, Kathy , safar_x <no_reply> wrote: > > Dear Kathy and other dear ones, > The message of the story is very well understood by Kathy. This is > THE ASPIRATION FROM WITHIN AND DIVINE GRACE ANSWERING IT. That is why > God/Guru dwell within because of Their Omnipresence. > Love to all > Satish > > > > , celestial_saraswati <no_reply> wrote: > > -Dear Satish, > > > > Thank you for your efforts to explain, but sometimes my brain can > be > > quite dense. Could you please kindly explain this according to > > your 'interpretation' of this tale? > > > > From what I read, this person made a mud idol, became very > proficient > > at archery, but then lost his thumb as an 'offering' to the Divine > > and could not longer continue with his skill. As I have said > before, > > I have difficulty sometimes comprehending the full import of > stories > > such as these, and would appreciate your "take" or "spin" > > or "interpretation" of what you feel the meaning of this story is. > > From what I can decipher, he had an aspiration, became skilled, and > > then lost the skill because of his offering to The Divine. Somehow > I > > feel you are saying this story teaches the importance of a > > Guru/teacher, but somehow I have missed it or the point? Can you > > clarify further? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Kathy > > > > @}-->--- > > -- In , safar_x <no_reply> wrote: > > > A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the > > > subject noted above. > > > "Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya, > of > > > inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared > > > before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas and > > > Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But Dronacharya > > > refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste > > > elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not > > > accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol > of > > > Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure, untained > > with > > > ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to be > > his > > > Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after > > later, > > > one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast > > found > > > Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that Eklavya > > was > > > better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part of > > the > > > story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb > cut > > > off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was glad > > to > > > offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his hard > > > learnt skill.,,," > > > Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual Path > > > likewise. > > > with love from > > > Satish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 Welcome and thank you for sharing your path with us. >From what I have learnt from Tantrics gurus, it is exactly what you have stated. In fact the same holds for guidance by all gurus, no matter what the path maybe. Even in the case of what is typically considered the "impersonal" or "dry" path, the Vedanta, whose premise is "Aham Brahasmi", the idea here too is considered rather dangerous for those who haven't yet experienced (not just verbalized) the difference between the "I" and the "i". The pitfall most new vedantic intellectualists fall into is the grandeur of thinking "i" am THAT, which, as is obvious, leads to rather painfull consequences. It's not as if the Bhaktins are spared. In their fervorous love for their ishta devatas/Masters, they become blinded to all else, to the point of condemnation of all else, losing the very point of the Bhakti path. The Guru's role therefore is tough, to make an accessment of where the person is, and chalk out a rather individualized curriculum. And I have also seen that each is sent their Guru according to their readiness, according to the level of their commitment, what they are willing to do. Some thoughts _/\_ Tat twam asi Uma *********************************************** This is in response to dakinic_monk Post # 4211 ************************************************ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 Whatever has been posted over this topic is just not only marvellous but show how the memebers of the group share same view point.Guru is essential, may be in any form dwelling within or out as an object. Let me put an interesting etimology of the word. "Guru" means "havier".Now this term is relative; havier than ?... definitely havier than "i"; it may either be "I" or "Him". Principle of ONENESS teaches us precisely this. yem yem.. I am allured to quote Meher Baba as follows:- "I AND YOU ARE NOT WE BUT ONE"---Meher Baba Let love prevail, Satish , "tatwamasi" <tatwamasi> wrote: > Welcome and thank you for sharing your path with us. > > From what I have learnt from Tantrics gurus, it is exactly what you > have stated. > > In fact the same holds for guidance by all gurus, no matter what the > path maybe. Even in the case of what is typically considered > the "impersonal" or "dry" path, the Vedanta, whose premise is "Aham > Brahasmi", the idea here too is considered rather dangerous for those > who haven't yet experienced (not just verbalized) the difference > between the "I" and the "i". The pitfall most new vedantic > intellectualists fall into is the grandeur of thinking "i" am THAT, > which, as is obvious, leads to rather painfull consequences. > > It's not as if the Bhaktins are spared. In their fervorous love for > their ishta devatas/Masters, they become blinded to all else, to the > point of condemnation of all else, losing the very point of the > Bhakti path. > > The Guru's role therefore is tough, to make an accessment of where > the person is, and chalk out a rather individualized curriculum. > > And I have also seen that each is sent their Guru according to their > readiness, according to the level of their commitment, what they are > willing to do. > > Some thoughts > > _/\_ Tat twam asi > > Uma > > > *********************************************** > This is in response to dakinic_monk Post # 4211 > ************************************************ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 I am no authority in kaula but I will try to help ou, you see there is a higher form of enligtenment then even opening your kundalini this is known as the 9 temple theory, basically the analogue is that you body inside is indeed a temple. It's doors are locked, it is filled with filth and there is no diety. You have to open it, clean it, then install the diety through this the diety appears before you granting you one desire this is the first stage where the diety is both inside and ouside you. Later on if she is goddess then she comes inside of you and then you can converse with her this is the state of tapas, the true meaning of manas puja. later on you become physically like her as well and this state is known as merging within her. This is colelctively known as the Kungika siddhi so powerful it can make any goddess you slave. The ten mahavidyas are called such since they are the ten collectives on hindu knowledge, for instance kali gives power of space and time. She reveals all powers of the physical plane. Thus they possess all the siddhis another word for vidya. There are multiple texts about. I will give you more detailed explanation tommorow that is my promise. Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 Remember dear sir, that in tantra everything has a depeer meaning to understand this and realise this is to understand the mother divine. For she is beyond this conciousness thus so is tantra. The guru acts like a translator. You see some tantric texts in kaula say to have intercourse in shamshana what that simply means is to meditate on the shakti divine without any desire of fruit. Although this form of meditation gets amplified if done in the shamshana Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 A Guru helps us in attaining Self-Realisation not by imposing Realisation on us, but by removing the obstacles, for Realisation is not something external to be attained. The Self is always within us, and we are always Self-Realised, though we are not aware of it now, owing to the false identification with this body. The root cause of all this maya and delusion is 'I am this body' thought. The Guru helps us in realising the Self, by helping our minds turn inward and eventually removing the 'I am this body ' thought. Further perseverence and meditation results in mergine of this 'i' with the 'I', when all duality ceases to exist and only the ONE remains. Following are some QnAs that devotees put forth to Ramana Maharshi on Guru. Question: Is it absolutely necessary to have a Guru if one is seeking Self-realisation? Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as you seek Self-realisation the Guru is necessary. Guru is the Self. Take Guru to be the real Self and your self as the individual self. The disappearance of this sense of duality is the removal of ignorance. So long as duality persists in you the Guru is necessary. Because you identify yourself with the body, you think that the Guru is also a body. You are not the body, nor is the Guru. You are the Self and so is the Guru. This knowledge is gained by what you call Self-realisation. Question: What is Guru's grace? How does it lead to Self-realisation? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is the Self. Sometimes in his life a man becomes dissatisfied and not content with what he has, he seeks the satisfaction of his desires through prayer to God. His mind is gradually purified until he longs to know God, more to obtain his grace than to satisfy his worldly desires. Then, God's grace begins to manifest. God takes the form of a Guru and appears to the devotee, teaches him the truth and, moreover, purifies his mind by association. The devotee's mind gains strength and is then able to turn inward. By meditation it is further purified and it remains still without the least ripple. That calm expanse is the Self. The Guru is both external and internal. From the exterior he gives a push to the mind to turn it inwards. From the interior he pulls the mind towards the Self and helps in the quietening of the mind. That is Guru's grace. There is no difference between God, Guru and the Self. Question: How long is a Guru necessary for Self-realisation? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is necessary so long as there is ignorance. Ignorance is due to the self-imposed but wrong limitation of the Self. God, on being worshipped, bestows steadiness in devotion, which leads to surrender. On the devotee surrendering, God shows his mercy by manifesting as the Guru. The Guru, otherwise God, guides the devotee, saying that God is within and that he is not different from the Self. This leads to introversion of mind and finally to realisation. Question: What is the significance of Guru's grace in the attainment of liberation? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Liberation is not anywhere outside you. It is only within. If a man is anxious for deliverance, the internal Guru pulls him in and the external Guru pushes him into the Self. This is the grace of the Guru. Hari Aum !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Thanks svcs, you have added and authenticated what tatwamasi stated.."Tat--Twam-Asi" and about "i" vis-a-vis "I". Thanks and love Satish , s_v_c_s <no_reply> wrote: > A Guru helps us in attaining Self-Realisation not by imposing > Realisation on us, but by removing the obstacles, for Realisation is > not something external to be attained. The Self is always within us, > and we are always Self-Realised, though we are not aware of it now, > owing to the false identification with this body. The root cause of > all this maya and delusion is 'I am this body' thought. The Guru > helps us in realising the Self, by helping our minds turn inward and > eventually removing the 'I am this body ' thought. Further > perseverence and meditation results in mergine of this 'i' with > the 'I', when all duality ceases to exist and only the ONE remains. > > Following are some QnAs that devotees put forth to Ramana Maharshi on > Guru. > > Question: Is it absolutely necessary to have a Guru if one is seeking > Self-realisation? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as you seek Self-realisation the Guru is > necessary. Guru is the Self. Take Guru to be the real Self and your > self as the individual self. The disappearance of this sense of > duality is the removal of ignorance. So long as duality persists in > you the Guru is necessary. Because you identify yourself with the > body, you think that the Guru is also a body. You are not the body, > nor is the Guru. You are the Self and so is the Guru. This knowledge > is gained by what you call Self-realisation. > > Question: What is Guru's grace? How does it lead to Self- realisation? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is the Self. Sometimes in his life a man > becomes dissatisfied and not content with what he has, he seeks the > satisfaction of his desires through prayer to God. His mind is > gradually purified until he longs to know God, more to obtain his > grace than to satisfy his worldly desires. Then, God's grace begins > to manifest. God takes the form of a Guru and appears to the devotee, > teaches him the truth and, moreover, purifies his mind by > association. The devotee's mind gains strength and is then able to > turn inward. By meditation it is further purified and it remains > still without the least ripple. That calm expanse is the Self. > > The Guru is both external and internal. From the exterior he gives a > push to the mind to turn it inwards. From the interior he pulls the > mind towards the Self and helps in the quietening of the mind. That > is Guru's grace. There is no difference between God, Guru and the > Self. > > Question: How long is a Guru necessary for Self-realisation? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is necessary so long as there is ignorance. > Ignorance is due to the self-imposed but wrong limitation of the > Self. God, on being worshipped, bestows steadiness in devotion, which > leads to surrender. On the devotee surrendering, God shows his mercy > by manifesting as the Guru. The Guru, otherwise God, guides the > devotee, saying that God is within and that he is not different from > the Self. This leads to introversion of mind and finally to > realisation. > > Question: What is the significance of Guru's grace in the attainment > of liberation? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: Liberation is not anywhere outside you. It is > only within. If a man is anxious for deliverance, the internal Guru > pulls him in and the external Guru pushes him into the Self. This is > the grace of the Guru. > > Hari Aum !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Jaya Sri Radhey! Namaste all. These sacred verses reveal the glory of Sri Guru. 'gurur brahmA gurur viSNur gururdevo mahezvaraH gurur eva paraM brahma tasmai zrI gurave namaH' The Guru (Divine Preceptor) is no other than Lord Brahma, the cosmic creator. The Guru is no other than Lord Vishnu, the maintainer and preserver of the cosmic universe. The Guru is no other than Lord Shiva, the annihilator of the cosmic creation. The Guru is verily the Supreme Brahman, the Universal Soul Itself. I offer my humble obeisance to Sri Guru. 'ajnAna timirAndhasya jnAnAJjana zalAkayA cakSur unmIlitaM yena tasmai zrI gurave namaH' I bow down to the Divine Master, Who by the application of the collyrium of transcendental knowledge, opens the Divine eyes of one blinded by the disease of ignorance. 'akhaNDa maNDal AkAraM vyAptaM yena carAcarm, tat padaM darzitaM yena tasmai zrI gurave namaH' I bow down to Sri Guru, Who bestows the state of realization of the Supreme undivided Being that pervades and permeates all the moving and non-moving. 'mannAthaH zrI jagannAtho madguruH zrI jagad guruH mamAtmA sarva bhUtAtmA tasmai zrI gurave namaH' My sincere salutations to the Divine Spiritual Master, Who is not only my Lord but also is the Lord of the universe. He, my Guru, is the Preceptor of the entire world. He, the Supreme Soul of the universe alone is pervading my individual soul. (Visvasaara Tantra) 'vasudeva sutaM devaM kamsa cANUra mardanam devakI paramAnandaM kRSNaM vande jagad guruM' I humbly prostrate to the Spiritual Master of the universe, Lord Krishna, Who is the darling Son of King Vasudeva, Who has destroyed the evil Kamsa and Canura demon, and Who is the Supreme joy of Mother Devaki devi. 'matpreyAn rAdhikA preyAn maddhavo rAdhikA dhavaH tasmAdapi garIyAnyo kRpAlur me gurur mahAn' My eternal Beloved is the Sweetheart of Srimati Radhika. My Supreme Lord is the Soulmate of Srimati Radharani. But my Divine Spiritual Master of the universe, Who appears on the earth for the upliftment of fallen souls is even greater and merciful than Their Lordships. 'guruM bhajati zrI kRSNaH zrI kRSNaM bhajate guruH saddhAnta tastv abhede 'pi kRpAlur me gurur mahAn' My Divine Preceptor unceasingly engages in the adoration of the Supreme Beloved, Lord Krishna. My Lord too constantly worships His Soul Beloved. According to the principles of Prema Rasa (Siddhanta) and Scriptures, They are eternally Identical, and devoid of separation. But still, for the spiritual benefit of the sincere aspirant, the Supremely Merciful Incarnation of Divine Grace on earth is the greatest! (Daily Prayers- 'Prema-Rasa-Sankirtana' by Jagadguru Sri Kripaluji Maharaj) Jaya, Jaya Sri Radhey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 _/\_ Hari Aum !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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