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Is a Guru essential for Saadhna ?

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A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the

subject noted above.

"Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya, of

inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared

before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas and

Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But Dronacharya

refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste

elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not

accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol of

Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure, untained with

ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to be his

Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after later,

one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast found

Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that Eklavya was

better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part of the

story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb cut

off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was glad to

offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his hard

learnt skill.,,,"

Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual Path

likewise.

with love from

Satish

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-Dear Satish,

 

Thank you for your efforts to explain, but sometimes my brain can be

quite dense. Could you please kindly explain this according to

your 'interpretation' of this tale?

 

>From what I read, this person made a mud idol, became very proficient

at archery, but then lost his thumb as an 'offering' to the Divine

and could not longer continue with his skill. As I have said before,

I have difficulty sometimes comprehending the full import of stories

such as these, and would appreciate your "take" or "spin"

or "interpretation" of what you feel the meaning of this story is.

>From what I can decipher, he had an aspiration, became skilled, and

then lost the skill because of his offering to The Divine. Somehow I

feel you are saying this story teaches the importance of a

Guru/teacher, but somehow I have missed it or the point? Can you

clarify further?

 

Thank you,

 

Kathy

 

@}-->---

-- In , safar_x <no_reply> wrote:

> A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the

> subject noted above.

> "Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya, of

> inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared

> before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas and

> Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But Dronacharya

> refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste

> elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not

> accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol of

> Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure, untained

with

> ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to be

his

> Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after

later,

> one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast

found

> Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that Eklavya

was

> better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part of

the

> story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb cut

> off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was glad

to

> offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his hard

> learnt skill.,,,"

> Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual Path

> likewise.

> with love from

> Satish

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Dear Kathy and other dear ones,

The message of the story is very well understood by Kathy. This is

THE ASPIRATION FROM WITHIN AND DIVINE GRACE ANSWERING IT. That is why

God/Guru dwell within because of Their Omnipresence.

Love to all

Satish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, celestial_saraswati <no_reply> wrote:

> -Dear Satish,

>

> Thank you for your efforts to explain, but sometimes my brain can

be

> quite dense. Could you please kindly explain this according to

> your 'interpretation' of this tale?

>

> From what I read, this person made a mud idol, became very

proficient

> at archery, but then lost his thumb as an 'offering' to the Divine

> and could not longer continue with his skill. As I have said

before,

> I have difficulty sometimes comprehending the full import of

stories

> such as these, and would appreciate your "take" or "spin"

> or "interpretation" of what you feel the meaning of this story is.

> From what I can decipher, he had an aspiration, became skilled, and

> then lost the skill because of his offering to The Divine. Somehow

I

> feel you are saying this story teaches the importance of a

> Guru/teacher, but somehow I have missed it or the point? Can you

> clarify further?

>

> Thank you,

>

> Kathy

>

> @}-->---

> -- In , safar_x <no_reply> wrote:

> > A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the

> > subject noted above.

> > "Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya,

of

> > inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared

> > before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas and

> > Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But Dronacharya

> > refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste

> > elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not

> > accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol

of

> > Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure, untained

> with

> > ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to be

> his

> > Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after

> later,

> > one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast

> found

> > Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that Eklavya

> was

> > better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part of

> the

> > story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb

cut

> > off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was glad

> to

> > offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his hard

> > learnt skill.,,,"

> > Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual Path

> > likewise.

> > with love from

> > Satish

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I am the practitioner of the satvic kaulic tantram, to my knowledge (which is

very little), many tantras from sri vidya, kumara tantram, kaula tantram, agamic

tantram, bhairava agamic tantram and nigama niyanam and tantram are encypted.

 

This is so that the tantra not go in the wrong hands and by misused; therefore a

guru is there who decides wether the student is worthy of the true knowledge and

passes this to them.

 

As for this guru is god there is a reason, we perceive the dieites at time as

the supreme divinity, but they are a perceivable form that only directs one to

the level of the supreme divinity in saying so the guru often is used for that

same purpose thus this saying.

 

The mahanirvana tantram, kularnava tantram and tantrarajatantram clearly point

out the importance of the guru and in saying so the new question is that how

does one get the right master? I mean there isnt a supermarket where you can

hand pick a guru.

 

Well this part is easy, if one gains enough merits and does extreme worship of

the diety of one's choice to a level where they give the saddhak their vision.

Then the person reads the guru gita later having a vision of the guru.

 

Regards,

 

 

 

 

Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC!

 

 

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Dear Kalila, You have nicely said about a Guru'a part in spiritual

Path. As you are a Kaula Tantra practitioner,I dare ask you one

question which has been occupying my mind for about a year. The

question is,"If all tantric dieties are worshipped as MOTHER or

SHAKTI, why ten mahavidyas have a suffix of VIDYAS ?". Kindly take my

question as an honest attepmt to understand the accademic aspect, not

Sadhna.

Love

Satish

 

 

 

 

 

, Kalika Putra <dakinic_monk> wrote:

>

> I am the practitioner of the satvic kaulic tantram, to my knowledge

(which is very little), many tantras from sri vidya, kumara tantram,

kaula tantram, agamic tantram, bhairava agamic tantram and nigama

niyanam and tantram are encypted.

>

> This is so that the tantra not go in the wrong hands and by

misused; therefore a guru is there who decides wether the student is

worthy of the true knowledge and passes this to them.

>

> As for this guru is god there is a reason, we perceive the dieites

at time as the supreme divinity, but they are a perceivable form that

only directs one to the level of the supreme divinity in saying so

the guru often is used for that same purpose thus this saying.

>

> The mahanirvana tantram, kularnava tantram and tantrarajatantram

clearly point out the importance of the guru and in saying so the new

question is that how does one get the right master? I mean there isnt

a supermarket where you can hand pick a guru.

>

> Well this part is easy, if one gains enough merits and does extreme

worship of the diety of one's choice to a level where they give the

saddhak their vision. Then the person reads the guru gita later

having a vision of the guru.

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

>

> Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC!

>

>

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But Satish...the devotee lost his thumb...was this grace? I still am

not clear on this!!! ??? Can you further

elucideate/clarify/explain..?

 

Thank you,

Kathy

 

 

, safar_x <no_reply> wrote:

>

> Dear Kathy and other dear ones,

> The message of the story is very well understood by Kathy. This is

> THE ASPIRATION FROM WITHIN AND DIVINE GRACE ANSWERING IT. That is

why

> God/Guru dwell within because of Their Omnipresence.

> Love to all

> Satish

>

>

>

>

, celestial_saraswati <no_reply> wrote:

> > -Dear Satish,

> >

> > Thank you for your efforts to explain, but sometimes my brain can

> be

> > quite dense. Could you please kindly explain this according to

> > your 'interpretation' of this tale?

> >

> > From what I read, this person made a mud idol, became very

> proficient

> > at archery, but then lost his thumb as an 'offering' to the

Divine

> > and could not longer continue with his skill. As I have said

> before,

> > I have difficulty sometimes comprehending the full import of

> stories

> > such as these, and would appreciate your "take" or "spin"

> > or "interpretation" of what you feel the meaning of this story is.

> > From what I can decipher, he had an aspiration, became skilled,

and

> > then lost the skill because of his offering to The Divine.

Somehow

> I

> > feel you are saying this story teaches the importance of a

> > Guru/teacher, but somehow I have missed it or the point? Can you

> > clarify further?

> >

> > Thank you,

> >

> > Kathy

> >

> > @}-->---

> > -- In , safar_x <no_reply> wrote:

> > > A tale from Mahabharata to reflect upon for the answer of the

> > > subject noted above.

> > > "Once an enthusiastic, young and keen man named Eklavya,

> of

> > > inferiour caste unworthy to receive warrior's training appeared

> > > before famour Guru Dronacharya, the teacher of both Kauravas

and

> > > Pndyas. He paryed for the admission as a trainee. But

Dronacharya

> > > refuged to train Eklavya on the grounds of his caste

> > > elligibility.When Eklavya even after repeated prayers was not

> > > accepted as disciple he teurned sadly.Then he built an mud-idol

> of

> > > Dronacharya, and began to practice bow-arrow with pure,

untained

> > with

> > > ego and true aspiration to learn the skill holding the Idol to

be

> > his

> > > Guru.And lo! he learnt it achieving highest skill. Long after

> > later,

> > > one day Dronacharya along with his all disciples of elite cast

> > found

> > > Eklavya in the jungle. They all were amazed to find that

Eklavya

> > was

> > > better than Dronacharya's best student Arjuna...... last part

of

> > the

> > > story is a tragedy. Dronacharya asked for Eklavya's right thumb

> cut

> > > off as his Gurudakshina (token fee) for himself. Eklavya was

glad

> > to

> > > offer it to him, thus losing the physical ability to use his

hard

> > > learnt skill.,,,"

> > > Let us reflect the essentiality of a Guru for spititual

Path

> > > likewise.

> > > with love from

> > > Satish

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Welcome and thank you for sharing your path with us.

 

>From what I have learnt from Tantrics gurus, it is exactly what you

have stated.

 

In fact the same holds for guidance by all gurus, no matter what the

path maybe. Even in the case of what is typically considered

the "impersonal" or "dry" path, the Vedanta, whose premise is "Aham

Brahasmi", the idea here too is considered rather dangerous for those

who haven't yet experienced (not just verbalized) the difference

between the "I" and the "i". The pitfall most new vedantic

intellectualists fall into is the grandeur of thinking "i" am THAT,

which, as is obvious, leads to rather painfull consequences.

 

It's not as if the Bhaktins are spared. In their fervorous love for

their ishta devatas/Masters, they become blinded to all else, to the

point of condemnation of all else, losing the very point of the

Bhakti path.

 

The Guru's role therefore is tough, to make an accessment of where

the person is, and chalk out a rather individualized curriculum.

 

And I have also seen that each is sent their Guru according to their

readiness, according to the level of their commitment, what they are

willing to do.

 

Some thoughts

 

_/\_ Tat twam asi

 

Uma

 

 

***********************************************

This is in response to dakinic_monk Post # 4211

************************************************

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Whatever has been posted over this topic is just not only marvellous

but show how the memebers of the group share same view point.Guru is

essential, may be in any form dwelling within or out as an object.

Let me put an interesting etimology of the word. "Guru"

means "havier".Now this term is relative; havier than ?... definitely

havier than "i"; it may either be "I" or "Him". Principle of ONENESS

teaches us precisely this. yem yem.. I am allured to quote Meher Baba

as follows:-

"I AND YOU ARE NOT WE BUT ONE"---Meher Baba

Let love prevail,

Satish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, "tatwamasi" <tatwamasi> wrote:

> Welcome and thank you for sharing your path with us.

>

> From what I have learnt from Tantrics gurus, it is exactly what you

> have stated.

>

> In fact the same holds for guidance by all gurus, no matter what

the

> path maybe. Even in the case of what is typically considered

> the "impersonal" or "dry" path, the Vedanta, whose premise is "Aham

> Brahasmi", the idea here too is considered rather dangerous for

those

> who haven't yet experienced (not just verbalized) the difference

> between the "I" and the "i". The pitfall most new vedantic

> intellectualists fall into is the grandeur of thinking "i" am THAT,

> which, as is obvious, leads to rather painfull consequences.

>

> It's not as if the Bhaktins are spared. In their fervorous love for

> their ishta devatas/Masters, they become blinded to all else, to

the

> point of condemnation of all else, losing the very point of the

> Bhakti path.

>

> The Guru's role therefore is tough, to make an accessment of where

> the person is, and chalk out a rather individualized curriculum.

>

> And I have also seen that each is sent their Guru according to

their

> readiness, according to the level of their commitment, what they

are

> willing to do.

>

> Some thoughts

>

> _/\_ Tat twam asi

>

> Uma

>

>

> ***********************************************

> This is in response to dakinic_monk Post # 4211

> ************************************************

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I am no authority in kaula but I will try to help ou,

 

you see there is a higher form of enligtenment then even opening your kundalini

this is known as the 9 temple theory, basically the analogue is that you body

inside is indeed a temple. It's doors are locked, it is filled with filth and

there is no diety.

 

You have to open it, clean it, then install the diety through this the diety

appears before you granting you one desire this is the first stage where the

diety is both inside and ouside you.

 

Later on if she is goddess then she comes inside of you and then you can

converse with her this is the state of tapas, the true meaning of manas puja.

 

later on you become physically like her as well and this state is known as

merging within her.

 

This is colelctively known as the Kungika siddhi so powerful it can make any

goddess you slave. The ten mahavidyas are called such since they are the ten

collectives on hindu knowledge, for instance kali gives power of space and time.

She reveals all powers of the physical plane.

 

Thus they possess all the siddhis another word for vidya. There are multiple

texts about. I will give you more detailed explanation tommorow that is my

promise.

 

 

 

 

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Remember dear sir,

 

that in tantra everything has a depeer meaning to understand this and realise

this is to understand the mother divine. For she is beyond this conciousness

thus so is tantra. The guru acts like a translator. You see some tantric texts

in kaula say to have intercourse in shamshana what that simply means is to

meditate on the shakti divine without any desire of fruit. Although this form of

meditation gets amplified if done in the shamshana

 

 

 

 

Digital How To- Get the best out of your PC!

 

 

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A Guru helps us in attaining Self-Realisation not by imposing

Realisation on us, but by removing the obstacles, for Realisation is

not something external to be attained. The Self is always within us,

and we are always Self-Realised, though we are not aware of it now,

owing to the false identification with this body. The root cause of

all this maya and delusion is 'I am this body' thought. The Guru

helps us in realising the Self, by helping our minds turn inward and

eventually removing the 'I am this body ' thought. Further

perseverence and meditation results in mergine of this 'i' with

the 'I', when all duality ceases to exist and only the ONE remains.

 

Following are some QnAs that devotees put forth to Ramana Maharshi on

Guru.

 

Question: Is it absolutely necessary to have a Guru if one is seeking

Self-realisation?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as you seek Self-realisation the Guru is

necessary. Guru is the Self. Take Guru to be the real Self and your

self as the individual self. The disappearance of this sense of

duality is the removal of ignorance. So long as duality persists in

you the Guru is necessary. Because you identify yourself with the

body, you think that the Guru is also a body. You are not the body,

nor is the Guru. You are the Self and so is the Guru. This knowledge

is gained by what you call Self-realisation.

 

Question: What is Guru's grace? How does it lead to Self-realisation?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is the Self. Sometimes in his life a man

becomes dissatisfied and not content with what he has, he seeks the

satisfaction of his desires through prayer to God. His mind is

gradually purified until he longs to know God, more to obtain his

grace than to satisfy his worldly desires. Then, God's grace begins

to manifest. God takes the form of a Guru and appears to the devotee,

teaches him the truth and, moreover, purifies his mind by

association. The devotee's mind gains strength and is then able to

turn inward. By meditation it is further purified and it remains

still without the least ripple. That calm expanse is the Self.

 

The Guru is both external and internal. From the exterior he gives a

push to the mind to turn it inwards. From the interior he pulls the

mind towards the Self and helps in the quietening of the mind. That

is Guru's grace. There is no difference between God, Guru and the

Self.

 

Question: How long is a Guru necessary for Self-realisation?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is necessary so long as there is ignorance.

Ignorance is due to the self-imposed but wrong limitation of the

Self. God, on being worshipped, bestows steadiness in devotion, which

leads to surrender. On the devotee surrendering, God shows his mercy

by manifesting as the Guru. The Guru, otherwise God, guides the

devotee, saying that God is within and that he is not different from

the Self. This leads to introversion of mind and finally to

realisation.

 

Question: What is the significance of Guru's grace in the attainment

of liberation?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Liberation is not anywhere outside you. It is

only within. If a man is anxious for deliverance, the internal Guru

pulls him in and the external Guru pushes him into the Self. This is

the grace of the Guru.

 

Hari Aum !!!

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Thanks svcs, you have added and authenticated what tatwamasi

stated.."Tat--Twam-Asi" and about "i" vis-a-vis "I". Thanks and love

Satish

 

 

 

 

 

, s_v_c_s <no_reply> wrote:

> A Guru helps us in attaining Self-Realisation not by imposing

> Realisation on us, but by removing the obstacles, for Realisation

is

> not something external to be attained. The Self is always within

us,

> and we are always Self-Realised, though we are not aware of it now,

> owing to the false identification with this body. The root cause of

> all this maya and delusion is 'I am this body' thought. The Guru

> helps us in realising the Self, by helping our minds turn inward

and

> eventually removing the 'I am this body ' thought. Further

> perseverence and meditation results in mergine of this 'i' with

> the 'I', when all duality ceases to exist and only the ONE remains.

>

> Following are some QnAs that devotees put forth to Ramana Maharshi

on

> Guru.

>

> Question: Is it absolutely necessary to have a Guru if one is

seeking

> Self-realisation?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as you seek Self-realisation the Guru

is

> necessary. Guru is the Self. Take Guru to be the real Self and your

> self as the individual self. The disappearance of this sense of

> duality is the removal of ignorance. So long as duality persists in

> you the Guru is necessary. Because you identify yourself with the

> body, you think that the Guru is also a body. You are not the body,

> nor is the Guru. You are the Self and so is the Guru. This

knowledge

> is gained by what you call Self-realisation.

>

> Question: What is Guru's grace? How does it lead to Self-

realisation?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is the Self. Sometimes in his life a man

> becomes dissatisfied and not content with what he has, he seeks the

> satisfaction of his desires through prayer to God. His mind is

> gradually purified until he longs to know God, more to obtain his

> grace than to satisfy his worldly desires. Then, God's grace begins

> to manifest. God takes the form of a Guru and appears to the

devotee,

> teaches him the truth and, moreover, purifies his mind by

> association. The devotee's mind gains strength and is then able to

> turn inward. By meditation it is further purified and it remains

> still without the least ripple. That calm expanse is the Self.

>

> The Guru is both external and internal. From the exterior he gives

a

> push to the mind to turn it inwards. From the interior he pulls the

> mind towards the Self and helps in the quietening of the mind. That

> is Guru's grace. There is no difference between God, Guru and the

> Self.

>

> Question: How long is a Guru necessary for Self-realisation?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is necessary so long as there is

ignorance.

> Ignorance is due to the self-imposed but wrong limitation of the

> Self. God, on being worshipped, bestows steadiness in devotion,

which

> leads to surrender. On the devotee surrendering, God shows his

mercy

> by manifesting as the Guru. The Guru, otherwise God, guides the

> devotee, saying that God is within and that he is not different

from

> the Self. This leads to introversion of mind and finally to

> realisation.

>

> Question: What is the significance of Guru's grace in the

attainment

> of liberation?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Liberation is not anywhere outside you. It is

> only within. If a man is anxious for deliverance, the internal Guru

> pulls him in and the external Guru pushes him into the Self. This

is

> the grace of the Guru.

>

> Hari Aum !!!

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Jaya Sri Radhey! Namaste all.

These sacred verses reveal the glory of Sri Guru.

 

'gurur brahmA gurur viSNur gururdevo mahezvaraH

gurur eva paraM brahma tasmai zrI gurave namaH'

 

The Guru (Divine Preceptor) is no other

than Lord Brahma, the cosmic creator.

The Guru is no other than Lord Vishnu,

the maintainer and preserver

of the cosmic universe.

The Guru is no other than Lord Shiva,

the annihilator of the cosmic creation.

The Guru is verily the Supreme Brahman,

the Universal Soul Itself.

I offer my humble obeisance to Sri Guru.

 

'ajnAna timirAndhasya jnAnAJjana zalAkayA

cakSur unmIlitaM yena tasmai zrI gurave namaH'

 

I bow down to the Divine Master, Who by the application

of the collyrium of transcendental knowledge, opens the

Divine eyes of one blinded by the disease of ignorance.

 

'akhaNDa maNDal AkAraM vyAptaM yena carAcarm,

tat padaM darzitaM yena tasmai zrI gurave namaH'

 

I bow down to Sri Guru,

Who bestows the state of realization of the

Supreme undivided Being that pervades and

permeates all the moving and non-moving.

 

'mannAthaH zrI jagannAtho madguruH zrI jagad guruH

mamAtmA sarva bhUtAtmA tasmai zrI gurave namaH'

 

My sincere salutations to the Divine Spiritual Master,

Who is not only my Lord but also is the Lord of the universe.

He, my Guru, is the Preceptor of the entire world.

He, the Supreme Soul of the universe alone is

pervading my individual soul.

 

(Visvasaara Tantra)

 

'vasudeva sutaM devaM kamsa cANUra mardanam

devakI paramAnandaM kRSNaM vande jagad guruM'

 

I humbly prostrate to the Spiritual Master of the universe,

Lord Krishna, Who is the darling Son of King Vasudeva,

Who has destroyed the evil Kamsa and Canura demon, and

Who is the Supreme joy of Mother Devaki devi.

 

'matpreyAn rAdhikA preyAn maddhavo rAdhikA dhavaH

tasmAdapi garIyAnyo kRpAlur me gurur mahAn'

 

My eternal Beloved is the Sweetheart of Srimati Radhika.

My Supreme Lord is the Soulmate of Srimati Radharani.

But my Divine Spiritual Master of the universe,

Who appears on the earth for the upliftment of fallen souls

is even greater and merciful than Their Lordships.

 

'guruM bhajati zrI kRSNaH zrI kRSNaM bhajate guruH

saddhAnta tastv abhede 'pi kRpAlur me gurur mahAn'

 

My Divine Preceptor unceasingly engages in the

adoration of the Supreme Beloved, Lord Krishna.

My Lord too constantly worships His Soul Beloved.

According to the principles of Prema Rasa (Siddhanta)

and Scriptures, They are eternally Identical,

and devoid of separation.

But still, for the spiritual benefit of the

sincere aspirant, the Supremely Merciful Incarnation

of Divine Grace on earth is the greatest!

 

(Daily Prayers- 'Prema-Rasa-Sankirtana' by Jagadguru Sri Kripaluji

Maharaj)

 

Jaya, Jaya Sri Radhey!

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