Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 I would like to greet everyone in the club and to express my thoughts on this interesting subject. There are many postings talking on meat eating and moksha, which I couldnt read all (due to limited time)but I read about 6-7 postings. Most of the great yogis have been vegetarians and I am sure that there are very good reasons behind this decision. Apart from those great souls, until today I havent met any yogi who eats meat. We might have heard or read about some left hand path tantra practices which include meat eating, or use meat in spefific rituals but this is a total different subject and has to be approached differently.The subject of tantra and aghora conscerns only very advanced masters of karma, but for the rest of us there are certain karmic laws that we are inevitably subject to. Plants, insects, mammals and humans cannot be considered equal as far as their tattwic nature is concerned. In plants only one tattwa is prevailing, that of earth if I remember correct, in insects fire and earth (2 tattwas), mammals have 4 tattwas active and only humans use earth, fire, water, air and ether. That is the basic reason why removing the life of a human results to much greater karma than that of killing a mammal. The same way people who eat vegetables are karmically much lighter than meat eatters and this is related directly to spiritual growth. Another reason ,which was beautifully mentioned, is the thought forms present in a dead animal. Apart from the thoughts of fear there are also so many others that influence the food generally. Ayurveda teaches that all sicknesses emanate from the food that we eat and to the power of digestion. Actually even the food that we buy packed,in the supermarket or the food that we eat in restarants is polluted by the thoughts of the people who cooked it. And a mere impure thought, taken through food, can disturb a yogis meditation. Thats why most yogis prefere to prepare their food on their own (purify it through mantras) and never take anything else. Meat belongs to the tamasic type of foods which makes the nature of the mind also tamasic, and a tamasik mind can never hope to concentrate... So if we try to achieve moksha through raja yoga, I have serious doubts about whether moksha can be achieved without a vegetarian diet. Sivananda used to say that the first thing that a yogi must take care of is his diet. This can be proven to anyone through fasting. In periods of fasting, spiritual experiences take place without even having to meditate! Bhakti yogis on the other hand have another type of diet which is suitable, and includes more sweet taste (according to ayurved sweet are milk products, bread, rice etc). Maybe there is an ayurveda doctor in the club who could through more light on these issues ?! However, being fanatical about the diet is an illness of the mind again. I think... I have read about animal sacrifices done by aghoris in order to achieve quick spiritual advancement, still those persons were able to ask permission from the animals soul and then lead it to a womb to take higher birth. So, I strongly believe that there are such details which we are not aware of about many things(like animal sacrifice) written in the scriptures. Namaste! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Welcome de_spell_2000. It's really very nice to hear your words of wisdom. I agree with you when you say that the thoughts of the animal, even the person who cooks it ( be it veg food or non veg food) do affect the ones who eat it. For while cooking, a part of ourselves , our nature , our thoughts, our emotions and tendencies do get into the food. Which is why when different people cook the same recipe using the same ingredients, you get diferent tastes. There is also a story from the Unapnishads to illustrate this. There was once a yogi, who observed strict austerities. His austerities brought properity and joy to the kingdom. The King of the empire, in order to pay respect to the yogi, invited the yogi to the palace for lunch. The yogi accepted the invitation and came to the palace on the stipulated day. The king gave him a warm welcome as prescribed in the scriptures. He washed his feet and sprinkled the water on his own head to show his due respect to the yogi. The king garlanded the yogi, and maidens showered rose water on him. The king led the yogi to the dining room, and served the food himself. The yogi was pleased with the hospitality of the king and ate to his hearts content. After his meal, he took a small nap in the kings bedroom. When he woke up, his eyes fell upon the kings ornament that was kept beside the bed, and something from within forced him to steal that ornament. He hid it inside his bag, and left. The king later noticed that his ornament was missing, and sent out orders to search all the ppl working in the palace. However no one doubted the yogi. The yogi came to his usual place of residence, and after a while , when the food that he ate was digested, he came to his senses. He realised that he had stolen it without his knowledge and came to the king and returned it. He said that, " i do not have desires for ornaments or gems or land or money. However after eating the food in your palace, this mean desire cropped into me. Please investigate as to who's mind in your palace is corrupt". Saying so he left the place. The king was taken aback as to who could have such mean thoughts in his kingdom, and started to investigate the matter. He enquired the cook, but the cook said that he had only clean thoughts, and that he was thinking about God and the yogi all the while. Next the assistants, who cut the vegetables, and washed the vessels, were interrogated. They too proved innocent. Then the vegetable retailers were interrogated and they too proved innocent. Finally the retailer who sold the rice was interrogated, and they found that he had smuggled the rice in order to get more money. This thought which appears to be so subtle had entered the food / rice that came into contact with him, and whosoever ate it was infected with those thoughts. The king banished him from his kingdom ----------------- >From the above story we find that , the thoughts do get into the food we are cooking. It is very evident in the behaviour of the yogi, for his mind is clean. Thus, even one corrupt thought manifests itself fully and becomes evident. In common people, we have a million thoughts, and 1 single thought is just added trash and it becomes difficult to spot. This is the reason yogis cook their own food, untarnished with the thoughts of others. Even in the days of the yore, people never used to eat in other people's houses or in restaurants, for the thoughts of the people who cook the food is unknown to us. They used to eat only in houses of people they know very well. Similarly the thoughts of the animals at the time of death get impregnated into it's flesh and inseparable from it. And when people eat, it, they eat not only the flesh but also the thoughts associated with it. I'll talk about hte nature of food and how it affects us in my next post. Hari Aum !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Dear Respected de_spell_2000: Thank you for your thoughts on meat. Even after having lived in US for over 26 years, personally speaking I am a strict vegetarian. Once someone asked me why are you a vegetarian? Is it because of your religion or something? I said, I am vegetarian because I love animals and hate vegetables. Moksha has nothing to do with eating meat and is already documented in our in our ancient texts. At the same token one being a vegetarian does not necessarily help or accelerate the process of moksha. Regards, Dr. Yadu -- ==================================== Guru Nanak's Veiws on Meat Eating " Those fools quarrel over the meat and flesh, but they know nothing about meditation or spiritual wisdom. They do not know what constitutes as 'meat' or what constitutes as 'green vegetables', or from eating what will lead to sin. It was the habit of the (Hindu) gods to kill a rhinoceros and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those (the brahmins, or other so called 'holy men' or 'sants') who renounce meat and hold their noses when sitting near it devour (spiritually) men at night. They practice hypocrisy. (i.e. vegetarianism) and make a show of it to other people, but they do not understand anything about spiritual wisdom or of meditation. O Nanak, what can be said to such blind people? They cannot reply nor understand the logic presented to them. They alone are blind who do blind deeds. Their minds have no eyes. They are produced from the blood of their mother and father, and yet they will still not eat fish nor meat... ...All beings and creatures are made up of a flesh (i.e. are made of cells) and the soul has taken up its home in flesh. They (the brahmins) eat the uneatable and they then reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind. In a flesh we are conceived, and in a flesh we are born, we are all vessels of flesh. O religious scholar, you know nothing of spiritual wisdom or of meditation, even though you call yourself clever. Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages meat has been eaten.... ....O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated. From water are produced corn, sugar-cane, and cotton....Many of these (and more) are just the different modifications of water. Abandon all these relishes and one will become a true Sun-neya-see,.." (Solitarian). (i.e. if you wish to have a diet that does not harm or take life then abandon eating anything that was once alive, plant or animal, and abandon taking any water that might contain any life-forms in it.) Written by Guru Nanak, pages 1289-1290 from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (A hymn about the stupidity of religious vegetarianism) ---- ---------- " None of the grains of corn is without life. First there is life in the water by which everything else is made green....All consequences of births and deaths are decided by God alone; it is through His Will that we come and go. Eating and drinking of food that God gives as nourishment is pure. Nanak says, the Gurmukhs, (the true followers of the Guru), who have realised the Lord, are not stained by impurity " Written by Guru Nanak pages 472-473 Guru Granth Sahib (A few lines from a hymn concerning about the idea's of purity) ---- ---------- Vegetarianism, Caste-system and other such Brahminical practices has it's roots in Hinduism. It is of recent origin of Brahminical thinking that a religious person should be a vegetarian. Ancient Vedic accounts attribute animal sacrifice as being a important Hindu- Vedic ritual and of Brahmins in ancient times eating beef and horse meat. An important note from history is that in the past Buddhism flourished and once was India's main religion, but the powerful hold of Hinduism over the minds of India's people could not be shaken off and once again Hindu practice's (and new ones) came into place. Today, Hindu-Brahminical beliefs have made deep in-roads into the most sacred areas of Sikhism, and I will finish this article with a warning to the Khalsa given by Guru Gobind Singh 300 years ago; As long as the Khalsa Panth retains the distinctiveness of the Sikh ideals, I shall bless it with power and glory. But, when it follows the ways of the Brahmins, I shall not trust it. Sikhnet Sponsored by Amar Infinity Foundation ----------------------------- ----------------------------- Sunday, September 16, 2001, the hindu Ignorance is usually accompanied by intolerance and recently we have had plenty of both on beef consumption in India. An article by Harish Damodaran (Business Line, September 4) presented Central Government statistics which stated that the meat India produces most is beef (1.44 million tonnes in 2000); the second is buffalo meat (1.42 million tonnes) and only third, is mutton and lamb (0.7 million tonnes). Beef and buffalo meat together account for as much as 60 per cent of domestic meat production. Fish is in a different category altogether with annual production at 5.8 million tonnes a year. With some rough, but reasonable, calculations Damodaran showed that the amount of protein Indians get, on average, from all forms of meat is roughly the same as from pulses. This is unusual for a supposedly largely vegetarian society, most of whose "NV" citizens are not supposed to eat beef. The per capita consumption of beef/buffalo in India is 2.8 kg, about half that of fish, but more than twice the average intake of mutton, pork and poultry - indirect evidence that beef consumption must be quite common among meat-eaters of all religions. Yet, because, increasingly, the beliefs and taboos of some are expressed as intolerance towards others, outside Kerala, beef - which is the cheapest of all forms of meat in India - has to be bought almost clandestinely; it is unhygenically stored and it is only the meat of sick and dying animals that is consumed. The result is that this inexpensive source of protein is often denied to those who need it the most. A friend made the provocative argument that vegetarianism is the prerogative of rich societies, and beef, the protein of the poor. There is more than a grain of truth here. Efforts to dispel our ignorance about Indian food habits are controlled by our increasingly powerful thought police. Some groups have gone to court and obtained a stay on the publication of a scholarly book, Holy Cow: Beef in Indian Dietary Traditions. The author, well-known historian Prof. D. N. Jha, has extensively argued elsewhere, too, that few taboos existed on beef in Vedic times. This was based on a study of Hindu religious texts and scriptures, which give ample evidence of beef-eating in Vedic India. Contrary, then, to what Hindutva would like us to believe, it was not Islam that brought beef-eating to India. While taboos on cow slaughter and a shift away from beef-eating emerged with Buddhism and Jainism, this meat never disappeared from Indian diets. What did happen from the middle of the first millennium, was that beef-eating was increasingly associated with "pollution" in the very era when there was a proliferation of the so-called "untouchable" castes, which is where it has largely stayed. (This perhaps also explains why my books in school never mentioned beef in Indian diets.) In the past the work of Prof. Jha has been rubbished by our present Minister of Disinvestment, Mr. Arun Shourie, who in his avatar as a selective destroyer of fallacies has pejoratively dismissed such research as the doing of "Marxists". Ironically, it was not Marxist historians who brought to light the presence of beef in ancient Indian dietary habits, but Sanskritists like P.V. Kane and archaeologists/Indologists like H.D. Sankhalia, both far removed from Marxism, who had studied the scriptures. But our thought police has no time for such facts. And unless we are willing to know our history, tolerance of individual food habits will not come easily. That anybody would want Prof. Jha's book banned shows how hostile we have become towards the expression of facts. The debates on social customs are potentially so explosive that one has to think twice before expressing a point of view which is different but not necessarily hostile. Many of us revere the cow, a practice that has evolved over the centuries. Many of us also see it differently, without causing offence to the believers. Both can survive in our society. But those who think they are our religious and civilisational guardians think otherwise. C. RAMMANOHAR REDDY from the Hindu -2001 ================================================ ================================================ ================================================ , "de_spell_2000" <oiokasti@h...> wrote: > I would like to greet everyone in the club and to express my thoughts > on this interesting subject. > There are many postings talking on meat eating and moksha, which I > couldnt read all (due to limited time)but I read about 6-7 postings. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 One is food oneself,Not knowing this If one imagines that one eats it , One is consumed by food and then Becomes but food for an insatiable hunger. Sri Ramana once said to one of the ashram cooks: "You must cover your vegetables when you cook them. Then only will they keep their flavour and be fit for food. It is the same with the mind. You must put a lid over it and let it simmer quietly. Then does a man become food fit for God to eat." (Sampurnamma in: Ramana Smrti, 1st ed.) An aversion to the eating of non-vegetarian food began to manifest itself only after a period of some years. It was to all appearances sudden. I had developed a distaste for beef much earlier, but fish and eggs continued to be indispensable items. It was at this time that I read R. L. Stevenson's Travels in the South Seas. The chapter on cannibalism and meat eating in general affected me powerfully. And I found that I could no longer relish non-vegetarian dishes. It was rather hard at first to enjoy a vegetarian meal. But by and by I felt quite at home among vegetarian dishes. I must here state that incidentally my general health improved, and some digestive complaints I used to have disappeared altogether. -- Light on Path by I.S. Varghese Smoking, meat-eating and drinking of liquors make men very irritable. Therefore, these should be completely abandoned. - Swami Shivananda In another instance, Swami Shivananda advises that giving up of meat eating, liquor and tobacco are aids in controlling anger. Bhagavan: Meditators must not work too much, nor should they fill their stomachs with excessive food. The more one fills the stomach, the lower one¹s mental state becomes. If the stomach is mostly empty, one will go higher spiritually. One should not tighten the strings of the veena either too much or too little. The body must be kept like that. Once a devotee asked Maharshi if one must stick to a vegetarian diet. Maharshi replied ( I can't trace the exact text and writing from my memory) A vegetarian diet is satwic and definitely expedites one's spiritual progress. If one wishes to achieve quickly, it is definitely better to switch to a vegetarian diet. However when one reaches a particular stage, where control is no longer required, then it does not matter what one eats. But until then a vegetarian diet surely helps. -------------- In this post I'm restraining myself to just quotations. All the quotations are related to food, and are meant to show that food does influence the mind, for it's after all mere chemistry. Our body and mind are nothing but chemistry. We see it in our daily life too. Consumption of alcohol prevents us from thinking straight, and deludes our mind more than it already is. Consumption of tea helps in refreshing the mind. garlic is an aphrodisiac. Curd induces sleep. etc. There is a close relationship between the body and the mind. A sound body results in a sound mind and vice versa. What we feed in, is what constitutes the body and conseuquently the mind. More in my next post. Hari Aum !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Agreed. I cant believe diet has no link with sadhna and even meat- eaters can attain to heights of samadhi Tomorrow somebody will say Drinking has no role in sadhna and any drunkard or womaniser can attain moksha. There has to be some link between diet and sadhna. As Shri Radhakutir said, final stage cant be crossed without leaving many Rajsic/tamsic deeds/diets. Moral values have a role in sadhna ! anybody saying "NO" ? laxman ps: i m myself a non-veg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Very interesting post. Therefore the fear and the pain the animal goes through at the time of slaughter must influence the mind of the person who consumes that flesh. Such a food can never be conducive for spiritual Sadhana, let alone Moksha. As far as vegitables are concerened, the subtle instruments that register fear and pain etc. are not developed in them to the same extent as for the animals. Whatever little Karmic reaction there might be is taken care by offering the food to the Lord before consuming, by the spiritual seeker. Also fruits and vegetables are classed as Sattvic whereas meat as Tamsic. Hari Om radhakutir - "s_v_c_s" <no_reply> <> 21 November, 2003 6:12 AM Re: Meat? no thanks! > Welcome de_spell_2000. It's really very nice to hear your words of > wisdom. I agree with you when you say that the thoughts of the > animal, even the person who cooks it ( be it veg food or non veg > food) do affect the ones who eat it. For while cooking, a part of > ourselves , our nature , our thoughts, our emotions and tendencies do > get into the food. Which is why when different people cook the same > recipe using the same ingredients, you get diferent tastes. > -------- > Similarly the thoughts of the animals at the time of death get > impregnated into it's flesh and inseparable from it. And when people > eat, it, they eat not only the flesh but also the thoughts associated > with it. > > I'll talk about hte nature of food and how it affects us in my next > post. > > Hari Aum !!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Interesting thoughts have been presented on this subject, one which always seems to bring out strong emotions in some people - not quite sure why that is so! Irrespective of what the thoughts are regarding this, I fail to understand why one group feel emotionally 'superior" or spiritually purer than the other; hardly sattwic tendencies. Several thoughts come to my mind on this topic. Diet of vegetables and grains is certainly healthy as compared to a diet rich in saturated fats, no matter where they come from. It is also ecologically true, that it takes more land to feed non- vegetarians (NV) than vegetarians and in an environment of depreciating nutrients in land for agriculture, producing meat for consumption is intensifying pressure on our limited resources. At the same time the increased pressure and intensive cultivation of land has lead to crops being deficient in essential micro-nutrients, a basic requirement for our health, and one that has been obtained from crops in the past. These are facts, being researched and addressed by world organizations whose mission is to taking care of feeding the masses of the world. We know that all material is a combination of the Gunas, Tamas, Rajas and Sattwa, which applies also to foods. Rajasic - Foods that are very hot, bitter, sour, dry, or salty are rajasic. which "overstimulate (heat) the body, increase activity levels, and excite the passions, making the mind restless and uncontrollable". These include hot substances, such as sharp spices or strong herbs, stimulants, like coffee and tea, fish, eggs, salt and chocolate. Eating in a hurry is also considered rajasic." Other foods, include, Onions, Garlic, Hot peppers, Tomatoes, Radishes, Chilies, Corn, Spices, eggs, and Fish. Tamarind, an important ingredient in vegetarian cooking is extremely rajasic in nature! Tamasic - Tamasic foods promote heaviness in the body which include Red meat, Alcohol, Mushrooms, processed foods, Deep-fried and Fermented foods, Aged foods, like cheese and leftovers. These foods cause mental dullness, confusion and disorientation as well as physical lethargy and sluggishness. They also give a violent slant to the aggressive quality of rajas." Sattwic - Most fruits, nuts and vegetables and milk products Ayurveda advises us to eat to balance Guna combinations and accordingly increase or decrease appropriate foods. It is well known that our food habits have evolved based on region, lifestyle needs, availability and climatic conditions, just like some of our physical characteristics have evolved, like pigmentation of skin, nasal passages,(longer in cold climates to raise temp of inhaled air). In the role of hunters and gatherers, our diet was a certain kind and after fire was discovered it changed the habits of eating again! Today, the dietary needs of those who are meditating in caves, or live a life of quiet contemplation are likely to be different from that of a student involved in heavy mental/physical activity which in turn is different from a farmer in fields or a soccer-mom chasing kids and activities in todays Karmic play-ground. Aside from the conscious converts, there are fewer traditionally vegetarian regions in the world than NV ones, (Are there any aside from some regions of India?) To categorically state that NV eating populations of the world are somehow less spiritual, is that not making a huge inaccurate judgement? Having had the experience of both Europe and North America, it is our collective understanding that there are as many compassionate, caring, spiritualy concsious people living on the fundamental principles of nishkam-Karma and Bhakti yoga of the traditions in the regions, as there are in the few traditionally vegetarian regions of the world. It is also our collective experience that there are as many people soaked in Kama, Krodha and Lobha etc (Desire, Anger and Greed) and its sub- categories, in the Vegetarian populations as there are among others. Neither category of people are perfect, but does food make one more superior or closer to moksha? It is also true that what we eat effects our mind and body. Energy which is the ingredient being carried through food, is effected by all other energy around it. The mental attitudes of the cook, the environment of the kitchen, are as important as the attitude with which it is eaten. While many are addressing this consciously these days, these have been disguised in food-preparation and eating rituals in the tradition, and is the essence of the goal. Food prep rituals in our tradtion include food being cooked by "Brahmins" a rule made at a time when Brahmins were assumed to be and were more tuned to sattwic practices. Eating rituals are laid out in detail in Ayurveda, which include prayer offering, silence, chewing etc etc. Unfortunately rituals when followed without its understanding tend to lose it value or the ritual itself tends to become the goal and its purpose lost. What is then the primary objective of food? Providing an indirect source of Prana untill we are able to live off the direct source (Light) itself. Individuals are born in environments, - work, family, region, religion etc according to the karma and the issues they are to burn out this time. While food is an important tool, is it the only tool? I personally am involved with numerous NV spiritual seekers who live a "purer" life in mind body and spirit than many many Vegetarians. Similarly vegetainism hasn't cleared many many people of there deep seated anger, rage, insecurities, manipulative and abusive behaviors. It is as common to find people using so-called sattwic food or words (parroting of scriptures) spit foul gutter behavior, as it is to find them in those who don't use these sattwic tools. I come from Bengal a primarily fish eating community and have grown up that way. My personal choice is more vegetables and grain. I am far from Moksha, and my tools of sadhna include a constant vigil of my mind and behavior. I have been able to maintain a steady mind in meditation and in fact have been blessed with healings of many kind. Instead of parroting holy words, my path includes a constant gauging of myself - where I am in my anger-desire-greed-jealousy- manipulative behavior patterns (kleshas); What company do I keep and do I support this kind of behavior directly or indirectly? A sadhak is better served by looking into their selves, and ask such questions. Even if they don't tell the truth to others, it is hard to lie to one's heart!! Forcing ones mind into one specific tool of sadhna through argument, guilt, judgement, berating others doesn't help; practicing principles of spiritual living takes one through the required journey- it is automatic. My Gurus have taught me ... Take care of living the principles Today, Moksha will take care of itself. A member sent me the following quote - "Eating non-vegetarian food, does it interrupt my spiritual advancement and getting the blessings of God? Please explain with an example? My dear friend No it does not matter if you eat non-vegetarian or vegetarian food only. What matters is are you having any disturbances about it in your mind? Don't have any thoughts against it. What is more important is you don't force your views on other about the eating the non-vegetarian food. You eat if you please but don't force others about it. It will hamper your own spiritual progress. Because the progress is to accept the whole world as it is. As regards the example I don't want to quote as it not necessary. Spiritual practice is not a mimicry to be followed as what others have done. Your own firm convictions will alone help you to live your path. Lots of love...Anubhavananda"" _/\_ Tat twam asi Uma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Thank you Respected Tatwamasi for your post - on the Rajasik, Swattik and Tamasik foods. But you know our life is pre-destined. While I was taking my yoga lessons I asked Guruji that what food should I take.Guruji said food must be to my choice. As a soldier cannot fight and live on sattwik food like fruits and vegetables. Food habits cannot contaminate our soul. It is our desires that contaminate our soul. So our Sadhana is for assessing our desires and channelling it to sattwik path. food is not a barrier to the path of Mokshya. As it is predestined that where I have taken birth, what type of job i will do and for that what type of food will be necessary for me to take. I do agree with you my Guruji also taught me to "Take care of living the principles Today, Moksha will take care of itself." with regards. nirbanam , "Tatwamasi" <tatwamasi> wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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