Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down the moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me to focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always everywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picture in front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus. Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I misunderstood. Sarina <jodyrrr > wrote: There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganismthat Kali is a deity one can call in to help completecertain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may helpone to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very littleto do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deitiesto call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as Shehas already got all the bases covered.Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the skyto remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee canever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrenderto Her. This is already the state of all apparent beingsas it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experienceof this in the form of a shakta's devotion.Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except moredevotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustrationof this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go"mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of outof this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. Allof that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its motheris much better qualified to make decisions about which wantsand needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite whatthe kitten may or may not want for itself.As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we aretrying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale intoutter insignificance in the light of the experience of truedevotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.--jody. New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina. I'm not arguing for the neo-pagan view, I'm trying to make it clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at least in terms of Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her home culture in India. For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell. What are you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashakti is the cause of everything that happens, why would you want to change that, or why would you even try? The point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, as the practice is defined in India, casting a spell is one of the most trivial and petty actions one can take. It is the opposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield influence over the material plane in this way, especially given the fact that Ma's got it all under control already. In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to do with one another as the Pope has with Britney Spears, in my opinion. Of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want with whatever they believe. Kali as a cultural phenomenon has got a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo- pagan fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it clear that their "uses" for Kali have practically nothing to do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms of the mythology and iconography which evolved there. --jody. Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: > I don't really know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what > she has shown to me. If "neo-pagans" feel that they need to make > a formal call to Kali to focus their intent than that is what they need to do. > To each their own worship and growth. > I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down the moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me to focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always everywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picture in front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus. > > Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I misunderstood. > > Sarina > <jodyrrr> wrote: > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas. > > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She > has already got all the bases covered. > > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already. > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion. > > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power, > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what > the kitten may or may not want for itself. > > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > --jody. > > > Sponsor > > > > Links > > > Kali_Ma/ > > > Kali_Ma > > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read on this wonderful list. John one that comes only after one has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Hey John. The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize Her into their own ideology as anyone else. However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request. In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells. Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti, and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit. I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've come to understand and experience of shaktism. So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really* want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and surrender at your holy lotus feet. The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time, but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of the outcome. If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma. Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome, regardless of what is being requested at the time. --jody. Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote: > Hi Jody, > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > on this wonderful list. > > > John > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Jody, thank you again for your post. I really appreciate the insight you have to share and I love to learn form all sides so I can grow. truly thank you Johnjodyrrr <jodyrrr > wrote: Hey John.The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible forall activity in the manifest universe, including the creationand activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreementwith Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretizeHer into their own ideology as anyone else.However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., theywould all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma toaccomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heartwhen you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out thefutility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I'vecome to understand and experience of shaktism.So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you shoulddrop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and surrender at your holy lotus feet.The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. Theysimply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and letHer take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless ofthe outcome.If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,regardless of what is being requested at the time.--jody.Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote:> Hi Jody,> I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > on this wonderful list.> > > John > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown> away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.> > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other providerDo You ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 The Mahavidyas especially Chinnamasta grants siddhis. For me a lot of my magick works and I do use Kali and she does answer me. She has gotten me out of a lot of bad situations and potentially bad situations just by calling her name. Though what you say is true for you and I respect that. I hope you can respect what my beliefs as well as John's beliefs. Hecate is not just another deity she like Tripura Sundari and Tripura Bhairavi, Hecate is also the Queen of the 3 worlds. Magick is my life and my life is magick. When i change things according to my will I create the act of that. My spells as a witch is natural to me. Kali chose me to be this way. that is who I am. I am a priestess as well. I have been initiated as a Grand High Priestess at that. I chose Kali when I took that oath. I am also a priestess of Isis as well and I do not considder her "just another deity". Blessed be and Jai ma Kali! Kalimir John Soulard <johnsoulard > wrote: Hi Jody, I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read on this wonderful list. John one that comes only after one has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Kalimir John Soulard <johnsoulard > wrote: Jody, thank you again for your post. I really appreciate the insight you have to share and I love to learn form all sides so I can grow. truly thank you Johnjodyrrr <jodyrrr > wrote: Hey John.The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible forall activity in the manifest universe, including the creationand activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreementwith Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretizeHer into their own ideology as anyone else.However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., theywould all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma toaccomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heartwhen you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out thefutility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I'vecome to understand and experience of shaktism.So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you shoulddrop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and surrender at your holy lotus feet.The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. Theysimply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and letHer take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless ofthe outcome.If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,regardless of what is being requested at the time.--jody.Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote:> Hi Jody,> I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > on this wonderful list.> > > John > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown> away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.> > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Jodi, Thank you for your post, you have brought clarity to quandary I have been having. Pieces that didn't seem to fit are making much more sense now. Namaste', Sue "Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens." ~Carl Gustav Jung - jodyrrr Kali_Ma Thursday, August 26, 2004 1:59 PM The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganismthat Kali is a deity one can call in to help completecertain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may helpone to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very littleto do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deitiesto call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as Shehas already got all the bases covered.Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the skyto remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee canever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrenderto Her. This is already the state of all apparent beingsas it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experienceof this in the form of a shakta's devotion.Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except moredevotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustrationof this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go"mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of outof this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. Allof that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its motheris much better qualified to make decisions about which wantsand needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite whatthe kitten may or may not want for itself.As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we aretrying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale intoutter insignificance in the light of the experience of truedevotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.--jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Hi Sue. I'm glad the words are working for you. I enjoy putting these thoughts to the screen. Take care. --jody. Kali_Ma, "Sue Sullivan" <frausull@a...> wrote: > Jodi, > > Thank you for your post, you have brought clarity to quandary > I have been having. Pieces that didn't seem to fit are making > much more sense now. > > Namaste', > Sue > > > "Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens." > ~Carl Gustav Jung > > - > jodyrrr > Kali_Ma > Thursday, August 26, 2004 1:59 PM > The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity > > > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas. > > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She > has already got all the bases covered. > > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already. > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion. > > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power, > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what > the kitten may or may not want for itself. > > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > --jody. > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > Links > > > Kali_Ma/ > > b.. > Kali_Ma > > c.. Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: > You present a very intellectuall point. > if I realize that everything I do is Kali then casting a spell > is her will. Who is to say that she is not the reason I'm casting > the spell in the first place. She is the reason for everything, including your casting of spells. However, as a proponent of shaktism as expounded by Ramakrishna, such activity is not, in any way, shape, or form, an act of surrender. Think about it. You as an individual come to decide that you want to change something. If Kali is the manifestor of all activity, why would a surrendered devotee want to change that? Regardless of the positive or negative effects of Her activity in yours, or anyone else's life, it's all Ma. To ask Her to do something specific for you is disregarding Her wisdom in place of your own. For instance, right now I'm running a 103 degree fever. I definitely want to change that as I'm very uncomfortable at the moment. However, I would never in a million years ask Ma to do so for me. If I end up dying as a result of this infection, I know that was Ma's will for me. This is what Ramakrishna meant by surrender. > Aside from that, I really don't know a lot about her mythology in > India, I only know what she has shown me. One of the things is > that, being her daughter, I should take control of myself and be a > powerful woman. In so being a powerful woman Kali manifests > through me. That's certainly a primary aspect of Kali as She is emerging in the West, as a symbol of feminine power and value and a motivating factor in the improvement of people's lives. > I love learning about Indian culture, but I believe that religious > groups in India do not have a franchise over Kali any more than the > Pope has a franchise over Mary (or Britney Spears for that matter > ;0) ) > Sarina I totally agree, Sarina. Ma will take whoever comes to Her with whatever they have to offer of themselves. I only mean to point out that casting spells is not, in any way, shape or form, an act of surrender to Ma, as the practice as been expounded by the great shaktas of India. In other words, cast away to your heart's content. However, doing so is a much lower and trivial form of devotion, in my opinion, than just leaving everything ENTIRELY up to Her. --jody. > jodyrrr <jodyrrr> wrote: > I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina. > > I'm not arguing for the neo-pagan view, I'm trying to make > it clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at least in terms > of Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her home > culture in India. > > For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell. > What are you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashakti > is the cause of everything that happens, why would you want > to change that, or why would you even try? > > The point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, as > the practice is defined in India, casting a spell is one of > the most trivial and petty actions one can take. It is the > opposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield influence > over the material plane in this way, especially given the > fact that Ma's got it all under control already. > > In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to > do with one another as the Pope has with Britney Spears, > in my opinion. > > Of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want with > whatever they believe. Kali as a cultural phenomenon has > got a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo- > pagan fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it > clear that their "uses" for Kali have practically nothing > to do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms of the > mythology and iconography which evolved there. > > --jody. > > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: > > I don't really know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what > > she has shown to me. If "neo-pagans" feel that they need to make > > a formal call to Kali to focus their intent than that is what they > need to do. > > To each their own worship and growth. > > I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down > the moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me > to focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always > everywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picture > in front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus. > > > > Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious > right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I > misunderstood. > > > > Sarina > > <jodyrrr> wrote: > > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism > > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete > > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help > > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little > > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas. > > > > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities > > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She > > has already got all the bases covered. > > > > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky > > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already. > > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can > > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender > > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings > > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience > > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion. > > > > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more > > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration > > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go > > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out > > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power, > > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All > > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to > > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother > > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants > > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what > > the kitten may or may not want for itself. > > > > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are > > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is > > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn > > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into > > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true > > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > --jody. > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > Kali_Ma/ > > > > > > Kali_Ma > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > > Sponsor > > > > Links > > > Kali_Ma/ > > > Kali_Ma > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 alters as well. Kali is spreading like the wind across many countries and religions and this is probably what she had intended. This may just be Her Divine Will. sarina Helton <forestowl2 > wrote: You present a very intellectuall point. if I realize that everything I do is Kali then casting a spell is her will. Who is to say that she is not the reason I'm casting the spell in the first place. Aside from that, I really don't know a lot about her mythology in India, I only know what she has shown me. One of the things is that, being her daughter, I should take control of myself and be a powerful woman. In so being a powerful woman Kali manifests through me. I love learning about Indian culture, but I believe that religious groups in India do not have a franchise over Kali any more than the Pope has a franchise over Mary (or Britney Spears for that matter ;0) ) Sarinajodyrrr <jodyrrr > wrote: I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina.I'm not arguing for the neo-pagan view, I'm trying to makeit clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at least in termsof Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her homeculture in India.For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell.What are you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashaktiis the cause of everything that happens, why would you wantto change that, or why would you even try?The point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, asthe practice is defined in India, casting a spell is one ofthe most trivial and petty actions one can take. It is theopposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield influenceover the material plane in this way, especially given the fact that Ma's got it all under control already.In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to do with one another as the Pope has with Britney Spears,in my opinion.Of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want withwhatever they believe. Kali as a cultural phenomenon hasgot a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo-pagan fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it clear that their "uses" for Kali have practically nothingto do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms of themythology and iconography which evolved there.--jody.--- In Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:> I don't really know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what > she has shown to me. If "neo-pagans" feel that they need to make > a formal call to Kali to focus their intent than that is what theyneed to do. > To each their own worship and growth. > I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing downthe moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps meto focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is alwayseverywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picturein front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus.> > Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If Imisunderstood.> > Sarina> <jodyrrr> wrote:> There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism> that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete> certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help> one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little> to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.> > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities> to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She> has already got all the bases covered.> > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky> to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.> To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can> ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender> to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings> as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience> of this in the form of a shakta's devotion.> > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more> devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration> of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go> "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out> of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,> or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All> of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother> is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants> and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what> the kitten may or may not want for itself.> > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are> trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into> utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true> devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown> away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.> > --jody.> > > Sponsor> > > > Links> > To visit your group on the web, go to:> Kali_Ma/> > To from this group, send an email to:> Kali_Ma> > Your use of is subject to the > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Jody. I am a Reiki III. I can send distance Reiki. It's not magick, It's Japanese. Would you like me to send Reiki. It may help you fever, no promises though. SArina New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Kali_Ma, Maha Kali Tara Ma <jai_ma_kali> wrote: > I am actually loving this discussion. I see you point Jody but > thats like saying when i have a tooth ache "I wont go to the > dentist as Ma has it under control" or when a woman has breast > cancer she wont see a doctor as Ma has it under control. That's not what I'm saying, Kalimir. Believe me, I'm going to be at the doctor's tomorrow if I make it through the night. However, it's just not a matter I'd ever put to Ma, even if I was on my deathbed. Not having ever been on a deathbed, it's difficult to predict what I would do in that situation. But if I did ask Ma to save my life, such would not be an act of surrender to Her as defined by the shaktas Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Ramprasad, etc. > When i enchant an herbal drink to help heal myself is just as valid > as going to a doctor to get medicines. Bottom line for me > God/Goddess helps those who helps themselves. In fact one of the > oldest religions is actuall Strega which is Witchcraft and not to > be confused with Wicca which is a nice and valid religion but Wicca > was formed in the 1950's. Kali is all things for me and she gave > me the path of being a Witch and Magician. Some will take the path > of Hinduism, some will take the path of being a Christian, others > will take the path of Santaria and all will debate or discuss why > their beliefs are valid. Neo pagans are not the only one taking an > interest in Kali some folks in Haiti who practice Vudu have Kali on > their alters as well. Kali is spreading like the wind across many > countries and religions and this is probably what she had intended. > This may just be Her Divine Will. There is nothing, not a solitary, single thing, that is not Her will, including any resistance that comes up against Her adoption by other cultures. --jody. > > sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: You present a very intellectuall point. > if I realize that everything I do is Kali then casting a spell is her will. Who is to say that she is not the reason I'm casting the spell in the first place. > Aside from that, I really don't know a lot about her mythology in India, I only know what she has shown me. One of the things is that, being her daughter, I should take control of myself and be a powerful woman. In so being a powerful woman Kali manifests through me. > > I love learning about Indian culture, but I believe that religious groups in India do not have a franchise over Kali any more than the Pope has a franchise over Mary (or Britney Spears for that matter ;0) ) > Sarina > jodyrrr <jodyrrr> wrote: > I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina. > > I'm not arguing for the neo-pagan view, I'm trying to make > it clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at least in terms > of Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her home > culture in India. > > For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell. > What are you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashakti > is the cause of everything that happens, why would you want > to change that, or why would you even try? > > The point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, as > the practice is defined in India, casting a spell is one of > the most trivial and petty actions one can take. It is the > opposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield influence > over the material plane in this way, especially given the > fact that Ma's got it all under control already. > > In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to > do with one another as the Pope has with Britney Spears, > in my opinion. > > Of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want with > whatever they believe. Kali as a cultural phenomenon has > got a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo- > pagan fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it > clear that their "uses" for Kali have practically nothing > to do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms of the > mythology and iconography which evolved there. > > --jody. > > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: > > I don't really know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what > > she has shown to me. If "neo-pagans" feel that they need to make > > a formal call to Kali to focus their intent than that is what they > need to do. > > To each their own worship and growth. > > I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down > the moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me > to focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always > everywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picture > in front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus. > > > > Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious > right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I > misunderstood. > > > > Sarina > > <jodyrrr> wrote: > > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism > > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete > > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help > > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little > > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas. > > > > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities > > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She > > has already got all the bases covered. > > > > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky > > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already. > > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can > > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender > > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings > > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience > > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion. > > > > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more > > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration > > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go > > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out > > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power, > > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All > > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to > > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother > > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants > > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what > > the kitten may or may not want for itself. > > > > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are > > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is > > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn > > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into > > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true > > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > --jody. > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > Kali_Ma/ > > > > > > Kali_Ma > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > Links > > > Kali_Ma/ > > > Kali_Ma > > > > > > > > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: > > Jody. > > I am a Reiki III. I can send distance Reiki. It's not magick, > It's Japanese. Would you like me to send Reiki. It may help you > fever, no promises though. This is very generous of you Sarina. I'll take whatever help I can get at the moment. Thanks so much for the gracious offer. --jody. > > > > > SArina > > > > > > > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I have been told by Indian-born Shaktas that, while Kali is the source of all boons, she is also (eventually) the remover of all things. Her devotees can offer her those aspects of their life and personality which they want to get rid of. "Mother, take away my pain." "Ma, please remove my bad habits." "Mataji, banish my fear." Such offerings are accepted by Kali Ma as gratefully as she accepts an offering of incense, flowers, or the waving of lamps. Or (in some temples) the sacrifice of an animal. One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not be sacrificed to Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given to Her in sacrifice, your jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your greed as a cat presented to Her, and so forth. Be ever mindful that everything, good and bad, is a gift from Kali. And that nothing is eternal but Her. Ramakrishna had a vision of Kali as a pregnant mother emerging from the sea, giving birth and suckling her child, then growing fangs and devouring the child, and returning into the ocean. -- Len/ Kalipadma On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:59:42 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr writes: > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas. > > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She > has already got all the bases covered. > > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already. > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion. > > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power, > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what > the kitten may or may not want for itself. > > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > --jody. > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM > --~-> > > > > Links > > > > > > ______________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Kali Ma is also a primary deity of the cult of Tantra. While Westerners mis-understand Tantra to be about sexual practices, Easterners often mis-understand Tantra to be about... spellcasting! Tantra of course is much more complex than either such simplistic view, but if you read books like Dr. L.R. Chawdhry's "Practicals of Tantra," you will find many ancient examples of spellcasting for particular purposes (most of them falling under the description of <maleficia>!), and some of them explicitly invoke the goddess as Kali. Kali's withered crone aspect, Chamunda, rules the reproductive bodily fluids, and she is especially invoked to ask for getting pregnant and having many children. Raksha-Kali can be invoked to offer protection to her devotees. -- Len/ Kalipadma On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr writes: > Hey John. > > The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for > all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation > and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition > and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement > with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize > Her into their own ideology as anyone else. > > However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna, > Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they > would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to > accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request. > > In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells. > Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti, > and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit. > > I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart > when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the > futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've > come to understand and experience of shaktism. > > So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really* > want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should > drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests > of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and > surrender at your holy lotus feet. > > The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time, > but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They > simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let > Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of > the outcome. > > If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma. > Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome, > regardless of what is being requested at the time. > > --jody. > > Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> > wrote: > > > Hi Jody, > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > > on this wonderful list. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM > --~-> > > > > Links > > > > > > ______________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Kali_Ma, kalipadma@j... wrote: > > I have been told by Indian-born Shaktas that, while Kali is > the source of all boons, she is also (eventually) the remover > of all things. Her devotees can offer her those aspects of their > life and personality which they want to get rid of. > > "Mother, take away my pain." > "Ma, please remove my bad habits." > "Mataji, banish my fear." > > Such offerings are accepted by Kali Ma as gratefully as she accepts > an offering of incense, flowers, or the waving of lamps. Or (in > some temples) the sacrifice of an animal. While such may be the custom of some shaktas in India, to ask Ma for relief is not surrender as expounded by Ramakrishna, in my opinion. In other words, difficult circumstances can be constructive as much as they may appear to be destructive. > One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not be > sacrificed to Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given > to Her in sacrifice, your jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your > greed as a cat presented to Her, and so forth. And all that can be covered by asking for surrender and devotion. In other words, all will fall into place with devotion, despite what we think we may want or need. > Be ever mindful that everything, good and bad, is a gift from Kali. > And that nothing is eternal but Her. Well, Brahman is unborn. That's eternal too. > Ramakrishna had a vision of > Kali as a pregnant mother emerging from the sea, giving birth and > suckling her child, then growing fangs and devouring the child, > and returning into the ocean. > > -- Len/ Kalipadma If someone asks me to describe the Mahashakti, I tell them to think of a gigantic black hole at the center of a gigantic galaxy, swallowing whole star systems and civilizations, wholesale. --jody. > > > On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:59:42 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> writes: > > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism > > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete > > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help > > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little > > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas. > > > > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities > > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She > > has already got all the bases covered. > > > > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky > > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already. > > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can > > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender > > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings > > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience > > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion. > > > > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more > > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration > > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go > > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out > > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power, > > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All > > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to > > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother > > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants > > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what > > the kitten may or may not want for itself. > > > > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are > > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is > > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn > > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into > > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true > > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > --jody. > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM > > --~-> > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 You mentioned ; One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not besacrificed to Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given to Herin sacrifice, your jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your greed as a cat presented to Her, and so forth. Could you share with us which prayers are you refering to here? Jai Maa!!! Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I've a friend who is a native Keralan tantric shaman. He has described epic battles between witches and shamans of the surrounding villages. If you asked me, it's the same village superstitions one might find in rural Mexico. In other words, it's mythological nonsense. But you are correct in that such practices do exist, and that Kali in one of Her forms may be invoked in the process. In my experience, and according to the Indologist Jeff Kripal, tantra is primarily about transgression. In other words, despite all the complicated rituals and ideologies, tantra is really just about getting outside yourself by doing things that are inappropriate to the cultural envelope you inhabit. This serves to loosen attachment to definitions of personal identity, as such is defined primarily by cultural influence. Thus, a brahmin eats meat during the chakra, violating caste and taking him/her outside the idea that they are their caste, or that their caste defines them as beings. --jody. Kali_Ma, kalipadma@j... wrote: > > Kali Ma is also a primary deity of the cult of Tantra. While Westerners > mis-understand Tantra to be about sexual practices, Easterners often > mis-understand Tantra to be about... spellcasting! > > Tantra of course is much more complex than either such simplistic view, > but if you read books like Dr. L.R. Chawdhry's "Practicals of Tantra," > you will find many ancient examples of spellcasting for particular > purposes (most of them falling under the description of <maleficia>!), > and some of them explicitly invoke the goddess as Kali. Kali's withered > crone aspect, Chamunda, rules the reproductive bodily fluids, and she is > especially invoked to ask for getting pregnant and having many children. > Raksha-Kali can be invoked to offer protection to her devotees. > > -- Len/ Kalipadma > > > On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> writes: > > Hey John. > > > > The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for > > all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation > > and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition > > and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement > > with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize > > Her into their own ideology as anyone else. > > > > However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna, > > Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they > > would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to > > accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request. > > > > In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells. > > Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti, > > and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit. > > > > I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart > > when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the > > futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've > > come to understand and experience of shaktism. > > > > So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really* > > want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should > > drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests > > of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and > > surrender at your holy lotus feet. > > > > The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time, > > but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They > > simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let > > Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of > > the outcome. > > > > If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma. > > Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome, > > regardless of what is being requested at the time. > > > > --jody. > > > > Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Jody, > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > > > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > > > on this wonderful list. > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown > > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM > > --~-> > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 My books are mostly in storage, but the shlokas were translated in Woodruffe's "Hymns to Kali." -- Len/ Kalipadma On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:43:07 -0700 (PDT) kanna krishnan <kanna_krishnan2002 writes: > Dear Len/Kalipadma , > > You mentioned ; > > One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not be > sacrificed to Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given > to Herin sacrifice, your jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your > greed as a cat presented to Her, and so forth. > > Could you share with us which prayers are you refering to here? > > Jai Maa!!! > ______________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you and without you, it is vibrating matter. Namaste. >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr >Kali_Ma >Kali_Ma > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 > >Hey John. > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize >Her into their own ideology as anyone else. > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna, >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request. > >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells. >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti, >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit. > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've >come to understand and experience of shaktism. > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really* >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and >surrender at your holy lotus feet. > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time, >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of >the outcome. > >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma. >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome, >regardless of what is being requested at the time. > >--jody. > >Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote: > > > Hi Jody, > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > > on this wonderful list. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider > > > > > > Links > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Kali_Ma, "Leslie Connors" <leslie126@h...> wrote: > Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you > and without you, it is vibrating matter. > Namaste. [note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am slightly rephrasing the first 'graph.] Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who appears to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself as an individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is manifest in the universe, *is* Kali. To put it another way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up what we know as the manifest universe However, the unborn foundation of my being, which we all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is Brahman. Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason for treating them separately. Shakti is action, Brahman is actionless. As a person punching keys, I am Kali in action, but as the source of being which supports the idea of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman. In my opinion and rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other words, according to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate, not Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali is ultimate, but from the regard of the source of my being, none of this really exists at all. So, I would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if one is using the manifest universe as their point of reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in my existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali. --jody. > > > >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> > >Kali_Ma > >Kali_Ma > > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity > >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 > > > >Hey John. > > > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for > >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation > >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition > >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement > >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize > >Her into their own ideology as anyone else. > > > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna, > >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they > >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to > >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request. > > > >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells. > >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti, > >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit. > > > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart > >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the > >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've > >come to understand and experience of shaktism. > > > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really* > >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should > >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests > >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and > >surrender at your holy lotus feet. > > > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time, > >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They > >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let > >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of > >the outcome. > > > >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma. > >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome, > >regardless of what is being requested at the time. > > > >--jody. > > > >Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote: > > > > > Hi Jody, > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > > > on this wonderful list. > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown > > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I would just like to add that I as "Jody," this person punching keys, doesn't consider himself to be Kali. "Jody" is defined as just a devotee of Kali. When I look around me, all I see is Ma, (not that it looks any different as Ma than anything else.) In other words, it's me, the devotee, and Ma. That's it, the whole cosmology. So, you are all Ma responding to what I'm saying in whichever way She does, and I am Her devotee staking my position and defending it, and we are all mere puppets in Her lila. But ultimately, we are all one due to the fact that we are all Brahman, whether or not we live in the experiential understanding (jnana) of that fact. --jody. Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > Kali_Ma, "Leslie Connors" <leslie126@h...> wrote: > > Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you > > and without you, it is vibrating matter. > > Namaste. > > [note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am > slightly rephrasing the first 'graph.] > > Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who appears > to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself > as an individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is > manifest in the universe, *is* Kali. To put it another > way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up what > we know as the manifest universe > > However, the unborn foundation of my being, which we > all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is > Brahman. > > Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason > for treating them separately. Shakti is action, Brahman > is actionless. As a person punching keys, I am Kali in > action, but as the source of being which supports the idea > of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman. > > In my opinion and rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all > dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other words, according > to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate, > not Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali > is ultimate, but from the regard of the source of my being, > none of this really exists at all. > > So, I would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if > one is using the manifest universe as their point of > reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in my > existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali. > > --jody. > > > > > > >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> > > >Kali_Ma > > >Kali_Ma > > > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity > > >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 > > > > > >Hey John. > > > > > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for > > >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation > > >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition > > >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement > > >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize > > >Her into their own ideology as anyone else. > > > > > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna, > > >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they > > >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to > > >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request. > > > > > >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells. > > >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti, > > >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit. > > > > > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart > > >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the > > >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've > > >come to understand and experience of shaktism. > > > > > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really* > > >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should > > >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests > > >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and > > >surrender at your holy lotus feet. > > > > > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time, > > >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They > > >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let > > >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of > > >the outcome. > > > > > >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma. > > >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome, > > >regardless of what is being requested at the time. > > > > > >--jody. > > > > > >Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Jody, > > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > > > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > > > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > > > > on this wonderful list. > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown > > > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who you like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I understand you, All action and interaction is Ma? How are you feeling today? Sarina When I look around me, all I see isMa, (not that it looks any different as Ma than anything else.)In other words, it's me, the devotee, and Ma. That's it, thewhole cosmology.So, you are all Ma responding to what I'm saying in whicheverway She does, and I am Her devotee staking my position anddefending it, and we are all mere puppets in Her lila. Butultimately, we are all one due to the fact that we are allBrahman, whether or not we live in the experiential understanding(jnana) of that fact.--jody.Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:> Kali_Ma, "Leslie Connors" <leslie126@h...> wrote:> > Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you > > and without you, it is vibrating matter.> > Namaste.> > [note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am> slightly rephrasing the first 'graph.]> > Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who appears > to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself > as an individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is> manifest in the universe, *is* Kali. To put it another> way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up what> we know as the manifest universe> > However, the unborn foundation of my being, which we> all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is> Brahman.> > Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason> for treating them separately. Shakti is action, Brahman> is actionless. As a person punching keys, I am Kali in> action, but as the source of being which supports the idea> of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman.> > In my opinion and rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all> dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other words, according> to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate,> not Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali> is ultimate, but from the regard of the source of my being,> none of this really exists at all.> > So, I would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if> one is using the manifest universe as their point of> reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in my> existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali.> > --jody.> > > > > > >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr>> > >Kali_Ma> > >To: Kali_Ma> > > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity> > >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000> > >> > >Hey John.> > >> > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for> > >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation> > >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition> > >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement> > >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize> > >Her into their own ideology as anyone else.> > >> > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,> > >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they> > >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to> > >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.> > >> > >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.> > >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,> > >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.> > >> > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart> > >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the> > >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've> > >come to understand and experience of shaktism.> > >> > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*> > >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should> > >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests> > >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and> > >surrender at your holy lotus feet.> > >> > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,> > >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They> > >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let> > >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of> > >the outcome.> > >> > >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.> > >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,> > >regardless of what is being requested at the time.> > >> > >--jody.> > >> > >--- In Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard>wrote:> > >> > > > Hi Jody,> > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.> > > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,> > > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just> > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read> > > > on this wonderful list.> > > >> > > >> > > > John> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > one that comes only after one has thrown> > > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the> > > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Links> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >Tired of spam? 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Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who you > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma? Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur, and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma. If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma. > How are you feeling today? I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102, but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on Sunday if I'm still febrile then. Thanks for asking and for the help. --jody. > > > Sarina > > > > When I look around me, all I see is > Ma, (not that it looks any different as Ma than anything else.) > In other words, it's me, the devotee, and Ma. That's it, the > whole cosmology. > > So, you are all Ma responding to what I'm saying in whichever > way She does, and I am Her devotee staking my position and > defending it, and we are all mere puppets in Her lila. But > ultimately, we are all one due to the fact that we are all > Brahman, whether or not we live in the experiential understanding > (jnana) of that fact. > > --jody. > > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > Kali_Ma, "Leslie Connors" <leslie126@h...> wrote: > > > Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you > > > and without you, it is vibrating matter. > > > Namaste. > > > > [note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am > > slightly rephrasing the first 'graph.] > > > > Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who appears > > to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself > > as an individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is > > manifest in the universe, *is* Kali. To put it another > > way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up what > > we know as the manifest universe > > > > However, the unborn foundation of my being, which we > > all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is > > Brahman. > > > > Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason > > for treating them separately. Shakti is action, Brahman > > is actionless. As a person punching keys, I am Kali in > > action, but as the source of being which supports the idea > > of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman. > > > > In my opinion and rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all > > dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other words, according > > to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate, > > not Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali > > is ultimate, but from the regard of the source of my being, > > none of this really exists at all. > > > > So, I would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if > > one is using the manifest universe as their point of > > reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in my > > existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali. > > > > --jody. > > > > > > > > > >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> > > > >Kali_Ma > > > >Kali_Ma > > > > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity > > > >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 > > > > > > > >Hey John. > > > > > > > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for > > > >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation > > > >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition > > > >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement > > > >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize > > > >Her into their own ideology as anyone else. > > > > > > > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna, > > > >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they > > > >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to > > > >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request. > > > > > > > >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells. > > > >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti, > > > >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit. > > > > > > > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart > > > >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the > > > >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've > > > >come to understand and experience of shaktism. > > > > > > > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really* > > > >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should > > > >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests > > > >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and > > > >surrender at your holy lotus feet. > > > > > > > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time, > > > >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They > > > >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let > > > >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of > > > >the outcome. > > > > > > > >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma. > > > >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome, > > > >regardless of what is being requested at the time. > > > > > > > >--jody. > > > > > > > >Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Jody, > > > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > > > > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines, > > > > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just > > > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > > > > > on this wonderful list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown > > > > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > > > > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > Links > > > Kali_Ma/ > > > Kali_Ma > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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