Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does freewill come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please keep it up!!! Thanks. Sparrow Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who you > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma? > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur, > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma. > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma. > > > How are you feeling today? > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102, > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on > Sunday if I'm still febrile then. > > Thanks for asking and for the help. > > --jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow" <weepingbluesparrow> wrote: > I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does freewill > come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please keep > it up!!! Thanks. > > Sparrow That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us. I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question. However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our development as individuals by the events of our lives and how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such. Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish their apparent free will in the process. So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it. So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears, wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the generator of those events, any decisions we make in response to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence to the contrary. So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in one very important way, completely transcendent of everything that happens in the world, and even those things which appear to happen to us an individuals. I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality. When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body seem to make decisions and take actions. --jody. > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> > wrote: > > > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who > you > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who > > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I > > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma? > > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur, > > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma. > > > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma. > > > > > How are you feeling today? > > > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102, > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went > > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then. > > > > Thanks for asking and for the help. > > > > --jody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Many years ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of a Shakta, I browsed through an Indian Import store in the Little India section of New York (Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among the many bronze deity statues they had on display, there was a beautiful image of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife in her peaceful aspect). I fell head-over-heels in love, and asked the proprietor if I could examine the statue. The store owner called an assistant, pointed at the statue, and said, "Bring me the Kali." I was taken aback, for the statue had only two arms, had her hair tucked into an ornate headdress, held no weapons. "Aren't you mistaken?" I asked the store owner. "I've read a little about Hindu iconography. Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she dances on the body of Lord Shiva, and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is Parvati..." The proprietor gestured for me to come closer, and in a conspiratorial whisper, said, "Young man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!" It's true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or brand new, everything that is caught up in time, that casts a shadow, that partakes of a form, contains Kali at the core. I still wave incense and lamps before the image of Parvati, who stands to the left of the dancing Shiva on my altar. But the years have led me to appreciate the Goddess in her wrathful as well as peaceful forms. It's all Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I cannot reject Her, in whatever of her one thousand names and millions of aspects she choses to reveal Herself to me. Jai jai Ma! -- Len/ Kalipadma On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr writes: > Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow" > <weepingbluesparrow> wrote: > > > I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does freewill > > > come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please > keep > > it up!!! Thanks. > > > > Sparrow > > That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an > individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based > on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us. > I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question. > > However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals > we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined > by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we > are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our > development as individuals by the events of our lives and > how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual > right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such. > Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish > their apparent free will in the process. > > So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence > no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not > very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special > knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly > and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to > work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it. > > So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so > within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really > give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears, > wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making > decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to > make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything > else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in > accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the > generator of those events, any decisions we make in response > to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If > you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this > individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that > everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only > really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence > to the contrary. > > So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each > and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the > altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether > or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such > thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in > one very important way, completely transcendent of everything > that happens in the world, and even those things which appear > to happen to us an individuals. > > I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your > own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality. > When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of > individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of > having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body > seem to make decisions and take actions. > > --jody. > > > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who > > you > > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who > > > > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I > > > > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma? > > > > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur, > > > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma. > > > > > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma. > > > > > > > How are you feeling today? > > > > > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102, > > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went > > > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an > > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on > > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then. > > > > > > Thanks for asking and for the help. > > > > > > --jody. > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM > --~-> > > > > Links > > > > > > ______________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Jai Ma Kalimirkalipadma (AT) juno (DOT) com wrote: Many years ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of aShakta, I browsed through an Indian Import store in the Little Indiasection of New York (Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among themany bronze deity statues they had on display, there was a beautifulimage of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife in her peaceful aspect). I fellhead-over-heels in love, and asked the proprietor if I could examine thestatue.The store owner called an assistant, pointed at the statue, and said,"Bring me the Kali."I was taken aback, for the statue had only two arms, had her hair tuckedinto an ornate headdress, held no weapons. "Aren't you mistaken?" Iasked the store owner. "I've read a little about Hindu iconography. Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she dances on the body ofLord Shiva, and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is Parvati..."The proprietor gestured for me to come closer, and in a conspiratorialwhisper, said, "Young man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!"It's true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or brand new, everything thatis caught up in time, that casts a shadow, that partakes of a form,contains Kali at the core.I still wave incense and lamps before the image of Parvati, who stands tothe left of the dancing Shiva on my altar. But the years have led me toappreciate the Goddess in her wrathful as well as peaceful forms. It'sall Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I cannot reject Her, in whatever of herone thousand names and millions of aspects she choses to reveal Herselfto me.Jai jai Ma!-- Len/ KalipadmaOn Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr > writes:> Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow"> <weepingbluesparrow> wrote:> > > I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does freewill > > > come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please > keep > > it up!!! Thanks.> > > > Sparrow> > That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an> individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based> on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us.> I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question.> > However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals> we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined > by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we> are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our> development as individuals by the events of our lives and > how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual> right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such.> Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish> their apparent free will in the process.> > So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence> no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not> very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special> knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly> and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to> work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it.> > So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so> within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really> give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears,> wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making> decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to> make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything> else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in> accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the> generator of those events, any decisions we make in response> to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If> you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this> individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that> everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only> really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence> to the contrary.> > So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each> and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the> altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether> or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such> thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in> one very important way, completely transcendent of everything> that happens in the world, and even those things which appear> to happen to us an individuals.> > I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your> own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality.> When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of > individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of> having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body> seem to make decisions and take actions. > > --jody.> > > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:> > > --- In Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> > > wrote:> > > > > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who > > you > > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who > > > > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I > > > > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma?> > > > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,> > > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.> > > > > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.> > > > > > > How are you feeling today?> > > > > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,> > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went> > > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an> > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on> > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then.> > > > > > Thanks for asking and for the help.> > > > > > --jody.> > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!> http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM> --~->> > > > Links> > > > > > ______________The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 I'm older than you think. I'm talking about over 20 years ago. I don't think Butala Emporium existed back then. And the shop I'm thinking of closed many years ago. -- Len/ Kalipadma On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Maha Kali Tara Ma <jai_ma_kali writes: > ohh thats the Butala Emporium! I went there but I will say the one in > 74th street and Jackson Heights is better, its right off of > roosevelt and going towrds 34th Ave its on the same section with all > the jewlery stores are at. Its right on the otherside of the street > where the Jackson dinner and Taj mahal is. Oh when you are there if > you love Indian food go to the ashoka ok go on the side of the > Jackson Dinner and Taj Mahal go to the end of the block you will see > a drugstore on the opposite side of the street do not go that way > just make a right on that cornor and do not cross any streets its > right there next to an afgani eatery. Its awesome food its a buffet > and you can also order stuff off the menu. You are so lucky to live > in NY! > Jai Ma > Kalimir > > kalipadma wrote: > > Many years ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of > a > Shakta, I browsed through an Indian Import store in the Little India > section of New York (Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among > the > many bronze deity statues they had on display, there was a beautiful > image of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife in her peaceful aspect). I fell > head-over-heels in love, and asked the proprietor if I could examine > the > statue. > > The store owner called an assistant, pointed at the statue, and > said, > "Bring me the Kali." > > I was taken aback, for the statue had only two arms, had her hair > tucked > into an ornate headdress, held no weapons. "Aren't you mistaken?" I > asked the store owner. "I've read a little about Hindu iconography. > > Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she dances on the > body of > Lord Shiva, and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is > Parvati..." > > The proprietor gestured for me to come closer, and in a > conspiratorial > whisper, said, "Young man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!" > > It's true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or brand new, everything > that > is caught up in time, that casts a shadow, that partakes of a form, > contains Kali at the core. > > I still wave incense and lamps before the image of Parvati, who > stands to > the left of the dancing Shiva on my altar. But the years have led > me to > appreciate the Goddess in her wrathful as well as peaceful forms. > It's > all Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I cannot reject Her, in whatever of > her > one thousand names and millions of aspects she choses to reveal > Herself > to me. > > Jai jai Ma! > > -- Len/ Kalipadma > > > > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr > writes: > > Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow" > > <weepingbluesparrow> wrote: > > > > > I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does > freewill > > > > > come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please > > keep > > > it up!!! Thanks. > > > > > > Sparrow > > > > That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an > > individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based > > on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us. > > I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question. > > > > However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals > > we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined > > by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we > > are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our > > development as individuals by the events of our lives and > > how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual > > right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such. > > Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish > > their apparent free will in the process. > > > > So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence > > no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not > > very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special > > knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly > > and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to > > work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it. > > > > So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so > > within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really > > give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears, > > wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making > > decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to > > make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything > > else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in > > accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the > > generator of those events, any decisions we make in response > > to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If > > you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this > > individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that > > everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only > > really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence > > to the contrary. > > > > So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each > > and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the > > altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether > > or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such > > thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in > > one very important way, completely transcendent of everything > > that happens in the world, and even those things which appear > > to happen to us an individuals. > > > > I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your > > own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality. > > When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of > > individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of > > having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body > > seem to make decisions and take actions. > > > > --jody. > > > > > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote: > > > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton > <forestowl2> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people > who > > > you > > > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people > who > > > > > > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure > I > > > > > > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma? > > > > > > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur, > > > > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma. > > > > > > > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma. > > > > > > > > > How are you feeling today? > > > > > > > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102, > > > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went > > > > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an > > > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on > > > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then. > > > > > > > > Thanks for asking and for the help. > > > > > > > > --jody. > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > > --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM > > > --~-> > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > Sponsor > > > > Links > > > Kali_Ma/ > > > Kali_Ma > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. ______________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 I'm older than you think. I'm talking about over 20 years ago. I don'tthink Butala Emporium existed back then. And the shop I'm thinking ofclosed many years ago.-- Len/ KalipadmaOn Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Maha Kali Tara Ma<jai_ma_kali > writes:> ohh thats the Butala Emporium! I went there but I will say the one in > 74th street and Jackson Heights is better, its right off of > roosevelt and going towrds 34th Ave its on the same section with all > the jewlery stores are at. Its right on the otherside of the street > where the Jackson dinner and Taj mahal is. Oh when you are there if > you love Indian food go to the ashoka ok go on the side of the > Jackson Dinner and Taj Mahal go to the end of the block you will see > a drugstore on the opposite side of the street do not go that way > just make a right on that cornor and do not cross any streets its > right there next to an afgani eatery. Its awesome food its a buffet > and you can also order stuff off the menu. You are so lucky to live > in NY!> Jai Ma> Kalimir> > kalipadma (AT) juno (DOT) com wrote:> > Many years ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of > a> Shakta, I browsed through an Indian Import store in the Little India> section of New York (Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among > the> many bronze deity statues they had on display, there was a beautiful> image of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife in her peaceful aspect). I fell> head-over-heels in love, and asked the proprietor if I could examine > the> statue.> > The store owner called an assistant, pointed at the statue, and > said,> "Bring me the Kali."> > I was taken aback, for the statue had only two arms, had her hair > tucked> into an ornate headdress, held no weapons. "Aren't you mistaken?" I> asked the store owner. "I've read a little about Hindu iconography. > > Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she dances on the > body of> Lord Shiva, and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is > Parvati..."> > The proprietor gestured for me to come closer, and in a > conspiratorial> whisper, said, "Young man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!"> > It's true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or brand new, everything > that> is caught up in time, that casts a shadow, that partakes of a form,> contains Kali at the core.> > I still wave incense and lamps before the image of Parvati, who > stands to> the left of the dancing Shiva on my altar. But the years have led > me to> appreciate the Goddess in her wrathful as well as peaceful forms. > It's> all Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I cannot reject Her, in whatever of > her> one thousand names and millions of aspects she choses to reveal > Herself> to me.> > Jai jai Ma!> > -- Len/ Kalipadma> > > > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr > > writes:> > Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow"> > <weepingbluesparrow> wrote:> > > > > I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does > freewill > > > > > come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please > > keep > > > it up!!! Thanks.> > > > > > Sparrow> > > > That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an> > individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based> > on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us.> > I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question.> > > > However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals> > we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined > > by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we> > are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our> > development as individuals by the events of our lives and > > how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual> > right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such.> > Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish> > their apparent free will in the process.> > > > So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence> > no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not> > very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special> > knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly> > and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to> > work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it.> > > > So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so> > within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really> > give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears,> > wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making> > decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to> > make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything> > else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in> > accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the> > generator of those events, any decisions we make in response> > to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If> > you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this> > individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that> > everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only> > really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence> > to the contrary.> > > > So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each> > and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the> > altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether> > or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such> > thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in> > one very important way, completely transcendent of everything> > that happens in the world, and even those things which appear> > to happen to us an individuals.> > > > I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your> > own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality.> > When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of > > individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of> > having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body> > seem to make decisions and take actions. > > > > --jody.> > > > > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:> > > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton > <forestowl2> > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people > who > > > you > > > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people > who > > > > > > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure > I > > > > > > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma?> > > > > > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,> > > > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.> > > > > > > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.> > > > > > > > > How are you feeling today?> > > > > > > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,> > > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went> > > > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an> > > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on> > > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then.> > > > > > > > Thanks for asking and for the help.> > > > > > > > --jody.> > > > > > > > ------------------------ Groups Sponsor > > --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.> > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!> > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM> > > --~->> > > > > > > > > Links> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!> > Sponsor> > > > Links> > > Kali_Ma/> > To from this group, send an email to:> Kali_Ma> > Your use of is subject to the Terms of > Service. > > > > > Do you ?> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now.______________The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! 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