Who's Supreme? (was: Altars.)

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:01:50 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr writes:

>

Len wrote:

> > Many Hindus pick (or are chosen by) an Ishtadevata, and procede to

> see

> > the Chosen Deity as their own "supreme personality of Godhead."

> But

> your

> > insistance that Mother Kali is the ONLY valid form of divinity

> reminds me

> > of the attitudes of the Krishna Consciousness people, who raise

> Krishna

> > to the level of Supreme, and refer to all the other deities as

> > "demi-gods," unworthy of receiving worship (except as paths to

> Krishna).

>

Jody wrote:

> You've grossly misunderstood me, Len.

>

> I don't believe, in any way, shape or form, that Kali is the

> ONLY anything. In fact, I truly believe that any deity which

> is chosen by a sincere heart will be just as valid as an

> Ishta Devata. This is not limited to hindu deities. ANY

> deity will work. It's not the deity nearly as much as it is

> the sincere yearnings in the heart of the devotee.

>

> That said, I believe that if Kali is chosen, She is best

> regarded as the Mahashakti, responsible for all manifestion,

> rather than just regarding Her as one of many deities that

> one may call upon. That's how She's been regarded by the

> great shakta saints of India.

>

Len wrote:

> > Have you spent any time studying with an ISKCON group?

>

Jody wrote:

> Never. Those ninnies get no respect from me.

 

Well, that's a relief. Prabhupada once said that he didn't consider

ISKCON to be a Hindu organization! Although, they make available plenty

of posters, statues, yantras, etc. pertaining to the "demi-gods," and

I've purchased items from their catalog. (They almost never carry any

items or images related to Ma Kali, however!) I wish I knew of an

equivalent Shakta organization with as wide a variety of sacred objects

for sale.

 

 

>

Len wrote:

> > "ONE WAY" is a Christian concept. Hindus tend to say "Truth is

> One, the

> > Paths to it are Many."

> >

> > A simple addendum of "for me," or "for Kali bhaktas" would go a

> long way

> > towards making me less uncomfortable.

>

Jody wrote:

> Since we're in a discussion group about Kali, I'm assuming that's

> who we are talking about here. Ramakrishna said, "As many faiths,

> so many paths." I've lived that maxim from the moment I first

> heard it.

>

> I'm not saying there's one way, I'm just expressing my impressions

> and opinions about shaktism. What I'm saying is that Kali is an

> ultimate deity within shaktism, not just another aspect of something

> you call for a specific, and often merely narcissistic purpose.

 

I've read and studied the Devi Mahatmyam, a primal Shakta text, and it

takes the point of view that Ma Durga is the source of all the other

Shaktis. Her three main "avatars" are as MahaKali, MahaLakshmi, and

MahaSarasvati. But Kali is equal in power to Lakshmi and Sarasvati, and

all three are subsumed by Durga.

 

I'm also reading (it's slow going, and many hundreds of pages) the Srimad

Devi Bhagavatam (another respected Shakta text). It also seems to take

the view that Durga is supreme, that from her is derived Sarasvati and

Lakshmi, and from Sarasvati comes Savitri, and from Lakshmi comes Radha.

Five primary Goddesses, none of them Kali.

 

I think any of the Hindu Goddesses can be perceived as MahaShakti by

Shakta devotees (although Kali is very, very popular). It was explained

to me that Kali is present in every Goddess (just as every body has a

shadow). On the other hand, all of the Goddesses can be found within

Durga, because she is ParaShakti.

 

I suspect that not everyone on this List sees Kali as the Supreme. Many

on this List probably don't even consider themselves Hindus. I have

managed for over 20 years to juggle both a Shakta and a Wiccan practice

-- and they co-exist well for me. (I keep separate altars, though!)

 

Can you recommend some Shakta texts (in English) that back up your own

personal devotion to Kali as the supreme MahaShakti? Because the two

texts I'm familiar with (Devi Mahatmyam, and Srimad Devi Bhagavatam)

don't seem to present her in that fashion.

 

Even Sri Ramakrishna, devoted as he was to Ma Kali, also had a large

Krishna Temple, and 12 small Shiva Temples at his ashram at

Dakshineshwar. And Ramakrishna went on to study Christianity, Islam, and

Buddhism, and proclaimed them equal in value and teachings to Hinduism

(which got him into some trouble!).

 

California-born Hindu mystic Bhagavan Das was quoted at a workshop as

saying, "Westerners don't know how to process Kali's energy, how to

channel the Kundalini. Too many of them burn out for lack of grounding."

He mentioned rock stars like Kurt Cobain and Jimi Hendrix as examples of

rockers who had tapped into the Kundalini or Kali Shakti, and burned out.

Your opinion?

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, kalipadma@j... wrote:

 

[snip]

 

> Well, that's a relief. Prabhupada once said that he didn't consider

> ISKCON to be a Hindu organization! Although, they make available plenty

> of posters, statues, yantras, etc. pertaining to the "demi-gods," and

> I've purchased items from their catalog. (They almost never carry any

> items or images related to Ma Kali, however!)

 

My brother used to hang out at a Hare Krishna temple.

They had no tolerance for shaktism there at all.

 

> I wish I knew of an

> equivalent Shakta organization with as wide a variety of sacred objects

> for sale.

 

http://www.kalimandir.org/puja_shop/shop.asp

 

[snip]

 

> I've read and studied the Devi Mahatmyam, a primal Shakta text, and it

> takes the point of view that Ma Durga is the source of all the other

> Shaktis. Her three main "avatars" are as MahaKali, MahaLakshmi, and

> MahaSarasvati. But Kali is equal in power to Lakshmi and Sarasvati, and

> all three are subsumed by Durga.

 

Yes, mythologically. But I don't think that has anything

to do with Kali as an object of devotion. In other words,

Kali is what you make of Her just as much as She is in the

mythological record, in my opinion.

 

> I'm also reading (it's slow going, and many hundreds of pages) the

Srimad

> Devi Bhagavatam (another respected Shakta text). It also seems to take

> the view that Durga is supreme, that from her is derived Sarasvati and

> Lakshmi, and from Sarasvati comes Savitri, and from Lakshmi comes

Radha.

> Five primary Goddesses, none of them Kali.

 

I've read the Devi Bhagavatam. I liked the gossipy melodrama

of it.

 

But again, it's all myth, and doesn't necessarily need to

have anything to do with a modern Kali.

 

> I think any of the Hindu Goddesses can be perceived as MahaShakti by

> Shakta devotees (although Kali is very, very popular). It was explained

> to me that Kali is present in every Goddess (just as every body has a

> shadow). On the other hand, all of the Goddesses can be found within

> Durga, because she is ParaShakti.

 

Durga, Kali, Lakshmi, it doesn't make a difference really.

It's the idea of all the power in the universe being held

in the hands of a female Deity.

 

[snip]

 

> Can you recommend some Shakta texts (in English) that back up your own

> personal devotion to Kali as the supreme MahaShakti? Because the two

> texts I'm familiar with (Devi Mahatmyam, and Srimad Devi Bhagavatam)

> don't seem to present her in that fashion.

 

I'm not looking to texts to determine who Ma is for me.

 

> Even Sri Ramakrishna, devoted as he was to Ma Kali, also had a large

> Krishna Temple, and 12 small Shiva Temples at his ashram at

> Dakshineshwar.

 

Actually, Ramakrishna didn't have an ashram at Dakshineswar.

He moved there when his brother was nominated to be the Kali

priest. He got married and lived with his wife there,

and his devotees came to visit him there. But the temples

were owned by an another family, that of the Rani Rasmani.

They built the Krishna and Shiva temples along with the

Kali temple, which is by far the biggest shrine there.

 

But you are correct in that Ramakrishna was very broad-

minded. He was almost as much of a Vaishnavite as he

was a shakta. Ramakrishna used to enjoy enacting Radha's

love for Krishna. He dressed the part, sometimes for

weeks and months at a time.

 

> And Ramakrishna went on to study Christianity, Islam, and

> Buddhism, and proclaimed them equal in value and teachings to Hinduism

> (which got him into some trouble!).

>

> California-born Hindu mystic Bhagavan Das was quoted at a workshop as

> saying, "Westerners don't know how to process Kali's energy, how to

> channel the Kundalini. Too many of them burn out for lack of

grounding."

 

I don't think you *can* know how to process Shakti. She

just does what She wants in you. You have no choice at

all in the matter, except to surrender.

 

I realize there's all sorts of exercises you can do, and to

do so may bring a sense of control, but ultimately, that sense

of control is an illusion.

 

> He mentioned rock stars like Kurt Cobain and Jimi Hendrix as

examples of

> rockers who had tapped into the Kundalini or Kali Shakti, and burned

out.

> Your opinion?

 

People spin out and crash. I don't think it was their "fault",

even though they appeared to make some bad choices. I suppose

it's a bit sensational to blame it on Kundalini, but if it was,

that wasn't their fault either. It was their karma and so they

just didn't have a choice.

 

I've heard all those "don't mess with Kali" admonitions. I

did. Compulsively. It got pretty twisted, but it all came

out ok. Maybe I'm lucky. But I believe that if you just

leave *everything* to Her, whoever your Her is (or your Him

if that's what you prefer), everything will work out as it

should.

 

--jody.

[Guest guest]

I read this rather interesting discussion and could not resist sharing my 2

cents on them ( pleaes disregard them if you find them irrelevant)

 

Kalika Purana would share how Kali is equated to Supreme position in shakti

worship .A good Kali devotee should read the text for such an understanding.

Prevalent in tantric tradition.To see the supremacy of Kali pleaes read Kali

Tantra and Nirutara tantra as well

 

 

Secondly Mahakali Mahalakshmi and Maha Saraswathy in one form is called Chandi

..Devi Mahatmaya affirms .Therefore here Mangala Chandi Maa becomes supreme.

Prevalent in east bengal tradition

 

Bala Lalitatripurasundari of Sri Vidya Cakra pooja seen as the

Supreme.Prevalent in South indian tradition in partcular in kadi and hadi

tradtion

 

So the point his own ishtha is raised to supreme seeing the rest as demigod or

small manifestation of the same Supreme light holds water .This was called

bhakthi vedanta

 

But asserting his watch alone shows the right time is wrong.

 

In Kalika Purana there is a chapter where Brahma Vishnu and Siva would see each

other body transforming to each body (Vishnu to Brahma Brahma to Siva and so

forth) Then they realise all of them are something beyond the limited

formation as well. They realise they are in essence that alone !!!!

 

Jai Maa!!!kalipadma (AT) juno (DOT) com wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:01:50 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr > writes:> Len

wrote: > > Many Hindus pick (or are chosen by) an Ishtadevata, and procede to

> see> > the Chosen Deity as their own "supreme personality of Godhead." >

But> your> > insistance that Mother Kali is the ONLY valid form of divinity>

reminds me> > of the attitudes of the Krishna Consciousness people, who raise >

Krishna> > to the level of Supreme, and refer to all the other deities as> >

"demi-gods," unworthy of receiving worship (except as paths to > Krishna).>

Jody wrote:> You've grossly misunderstood me, Len.> > I don't believe, in any

way, shape or form, that Kali is the > ONLY anything. In fact, I truly believe

that any deity

which> is chosen by a sincere heart will be just as valid as an> Ishta Devata.

This is not limited to hindu deities. ANY> deity will work. It's not the

deity nearly as much as it is> the sincere yearnings in the heart of the

devotee.> > That said, I believe that if Kali is chosen, She is best> regarded

as the Mahashakti, responsible for all manifestion,> rather than just regarding

Her as one of many deities that> one may call upon. That's how She's been

regarded by the> great shakta saints of India.> Len wrote:> > Have you spent

any time studying with an ISKCON group? > Jody wrote:> Never. Those ninnies

get no respect from me.Well, that's a relief. Prabhupada once said that he

didn't considerISKCON to be a Hindu organization! Although, they make

available plentyof posters, statues, yantras, etc. pertaining

to the "demi-gods," andI've purchased items from their catalog. (They almost

never carry anyitems or images related to Ma Kali, however!) I wish I knew of

anequivalent Shakta organization with as wide a variety of sacred objectsfor

sale.> Len wrote: > > "ONE WAY" is a Christian concept. Hindus tend to say

"Truth is > One, the> > Paths to it are Many."> > > > A simple addendum of "for

me," or "for Kali bhaktas" would go a > long way> > towards making me less

uncomfortable.> Jody wrote:> Since we're in a discussion group about Kali, I'm

assuming that's> who we are talking about here. Ramakrishna said, "As many

faiths,> so many paths." I've lived that maxim from the moment I first> heard

it.> > I'm not saying there's one way, I'm just expressing my impressions> and

opinions about

shaktism. What I'm saying is that Kali is an> ultimate deity within shaktism,

not just another aspect of something> you call for a specific, and often merely

narcissistic purpose.I've read and studied the Devi Mahatmyam, a primal Shakta

text, and ittakes the point of view that Ma Durga is the source of all the

otherShaktis. Her three main "avatars" are as MahaKali, MahaLakshmi,

andMahaSarasvati. But Kali is equal in power to Lakshmi and Sarasvati, andall

three are subsumed by Durga.I'm also reading (it's slow going, and many

hundreds of pages) the SrimadDevi Bhagavatam (another respected Shakta text).

It also seems to takethe view that Durga is supreme, that from her is derived

Sarasvati andLakshmi, and from Sarasvati comes Savitri, and from Lakshmi comes

Radha. Five primary Goddesses, none of them Kali.I think any of the Hindu

Goddesses can be perceived as MahaShakti byShakta devotees

(although Kali is very, very popular). It was explainedto me that Kali is

present in every Goddess (just as every body has ashadow). On the other hand,

all of the Goddesses can be found withinDurga, because she is ParaShakti.I

suspect that not everyone on this List sees Kali as the Supreme. Manyon this

List probably don't even consider themselves Hindus. I havemanaged for over 20

years to juggle both a Shakta and a Wiccan practice-- and they co-exist well for

me. (I keep separate altars, though!)Can you recommend some Shakta texts (in

English) that back up your ownpersonal devotion to Kali as the supreme

MahaShakti? Because the twotexts I'm familiar with (Devi Mahatmyam, and Srimad

Devi Bhagavatam)don't seem to present her in that fashion.Even Sri Ramakrishna,

devoted as he was to Ma Kali, also had a largeKrishna Temple, and 12 small

Shiva Temples at his ashram

atDakshineshwar. And Ramakrishna went on to study Christianity, Islam,

andBuddhism, and proclaimed them equal in value and teachings to Hinduism(which

got him into some trouble!).California-born Hindu mystic Bhagavan Das was quoted

at a workshop assaying, "Westerners don't know how to process Kali's energy, how

tochannel the Kundalini. Too many of them burn out for lack of grounding."He

mentioned rock stars like Kurt Cobain and Jimi Hendrix as examples ofrockers

who had tapped into the Kundalini or Kali Shakti, and burned out.Your

opinion?-- Len/

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