Origin of the vEdAs...

[Guest guest]

Sri:

SriRamaJayam

SrimathE RAmAnujAya Nama:

 

Dear Sri Sri Sri Chinna Jeeyar swami,

 

I'm gita(a research student in aerospace engg)and am a

great devotee of Bhagavad RAmAnujA/Sriman NArAyaNA and also a firm

believer in RAmAnujA's SriVisishtAdvaitam. I felt very happy to read

that Jeeyar himself answers questions. Hence I pose my questions to

you:

 

(i)Great acharyas say that "apourusheya,anadhi,shAstram,vEdAs". They

also say that not even Bhagavan created!. This bothers my mind

because if you say that vEdas exist by itself without the

intervention of any including God, then does it not negate the

Supremacy of God/Sriman NArAyaNA? In my view, everything excluding

God Himself,is dependent on Him. Lord Parthasarathy says in BG(Ch

15:15)that He is the author of the vEdAs and He is the one who is to

be known/realized in the vEdAs. One can quote so many beautiful

slokas said by Lord Himself. How do you explain that vEdAs are

authorless!!

 

(ii)JIvAtmA is bound by karmA and both exist time immemorial,eternally

(BG Ch 2:20). The whole srSti/creation(whichever way one interprets)

is His LIlA(SriVaishNavism). It is said that we(jIvAtmA,Prakrti)form

the body of the ParamAtmA. During cosmic deluge(mahA praLaya)we are

all in Him in unmanifested form. How do you explain the karma in this

form? Somewhere HE must have started the creation and once it starts

it goes on and on(it's like sudarshana chakra/wheel). I'm not even

asking the birth of God. My opinion is that BhagavAn must have

created us(He says this in BG and also says nobody knows the secret

of His birth)at some point. This completely defies my mind.

 

(iii)VEdAs(Brahma sUtrAs)go by logic(vishaya,pUrva

paksham,samshaya,siddhAntA). There has to be a sound logical

reasoning to say that "women/sUdrAs can't hear/chant vEdAs". I can

quote "Tirukakachi nambi and Tirumazhisai AzhwAr's life). What

Bhagavad RAmAnujA says in his SriBhAshyam? For me RAmAnujA comes

first then Lord SriRanganAthA/NArAyaNA!(I chant his gadya trayam).

 

Can you throw light on these three questions?

 

AzhwAR EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam

sarvam krSNArpaNam astu

Tirumalai Nallan Chakravarthy gita

[Guest guest]

, "vaidhehi_nc" <nappinnai_nc> wrote:

>(i)Great acharyas say that "apourusheya,anadhi,shAstram,vEdAs".

 

Namaste,

 

IN MY OPINION....

 

The saying "vEdas are apourusheyas" is not to be found in any of the ancient

literature. We need to understand the spirit of this saying, but we should

not take it literally at face value.

 

The spirit of the saying is that vEdas are not man-made or artificial in the

sense they are not mAnava-nirmitam. They are daiva-nirmitam, or made by

divine beings. Every deva such as varuNa/viSNu or every seer such as

vizvAmitra/vaSiStHa is capable of propounding vEdas.

 

The literal meaning "vEdas are not made by puruSa" is actually illogical and

wrong. In this statement, the vedic word puruSa is used in error

inadvertantly. We have puruSa sUktam, which describes vEda puruSa as cosmic

form of the universe and vEdas are described of originating from puruSa. If

vEdas are apouruSheyas, then it leads to the defect that puruSa can not

speak out vEdas, thus invalidating puruSa sUktam.

 

To give another example, to say "srImannArAyaNa is a God" is perfect in

usage, but literally the word "God" as it was originally used does not

really help us. The 12th century english word "God" is derived from a german

root 'got' or Norse 'guth' which is meant for a different divine entity

unrelated to srImannArAyaNa. As such, the word "God" is now universally used

for any divine entity but that was not the original intent of the word.

 

Same goes for puruSa, which was originally a vedic word, but now used as

generic for human beings. So the statement 'vEdas are apouruSeyas" is not

according to vedic tradition because language is technically inaccurate. We

should only take the spirit.

 

Regards

Bhadraiah

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXPERTS, LEARNED ONES PLEASE CLARIFY OPINIONS EXPRESSED IN THIS POST

~~MODERATORS~~

[Guest guest]

With humble obeisance to the Lotus Feet of HH Sri Chinna Jeeyar Swamy,

 

Smt. Gita,

 

I know that you had intended your questions to be addressed by HH Sri Chinna

Jeeyar Swamy directly. But, I was so moved by your dedication to Bhagavad

Sri Ramanuja, and the sincerity of your questions that I could not help but

want share a few of my unqualified thoughts on this subject.

 

Please consider just as my "two cents worth" for your consideration until you

receive a reply from HH Sri Chinna Jeeyar Swamy in regard:

 

>

>

> (i)Great acharyas say that "apourusheya,anadhi,shAstram,vEdAs". They

> also say that not even Bhagavan created!. This bothers my mind

> because if you say that vEdas exist by itself without the

> intervention of any including God, then does it not negate the

> Supremacy of God/Sriman NArAyaNA? In my view, everything excluding

> God Himself,is dependent on Him. Lord Parthasarathy says in BG(Ch

> 15:15)that He is the author of the vEdAs and He is the one who is to

> be known/realized in the vEdAs. One can quote so many beautiful

> slokas said by Lord Himself. How do you explain that vEdAs are

> authorless!!

 

As you have aptly observed, everthing in its totality is completely dependent

only on Sriman Narayana alone for its very being. But, being dependent on

God, and being authored/created by God are two different things. Our

AchAryas have made it clear that Veda is not just a voluminous set of words,

or a set of prayers and ritutals; but rather It is Truth, and Truth by itself

can stand alone. The Truth remains the Truth whether or not we know it, or

whether we hear it or not, whether we learn it or not. It is a Universal of

set of Empiricims that stand independent from everything else. Consequently,

It stands the test of time and remains unchangeable.

 

By attributing an author to Truth, we suggest that at one time this Truth ws

not discovered or did not exist; in other words, it is possible to argue

that it was not valid. But, the Truth brought forth in the Veda is the Sole

Supremacy of Sriman Narayana, our utmost dependence on Him, and the Eternal

and Unconditional bond of Love that is always there between Him and Us. If

He had to author such statements at a particular time, then it could be

argued that there were conditions where other truths could have applied.

Since this is impossible, then we must naturally conclude that the Vedas

being Truth are part of the "Body of God," part of His Eternal Nature and the

Nature of this Universe, and hence are authorless and beginningless, just as

all of us, and God Himself are.

 

>

>

> (ii)JIvAtmA is bound by karmA and both exist time immemorial,eternally

> (BG Ch 2:20). The whole srSti/creation(whichever way one interprets)

> is His LIlA(SriVaishNavism). It is said that we(jIvAtmA,Prakrti)form

> the body of the ParamAtmA. During cosmic deluge(mahA praLaya)we are

> all in Him in unmanifested form. How do you explain the karma in this

> form? Somewhere HE must have started the creation and once it starts

> it goes on and on(it's like sudarshana chakra/wheel). I'm not even

> asking the birth of God. My opinion is that BhagavAn must have

> created us(He says this in BG and also says nobody knows the secret

> of His birth)at some point. This completely defies my mind.

 

We are the "body" of paramAtma whether or not we are in unmanifested form or

not; whether we know Him in totality and are serving Him in paramapadam, or

are simply responding to the complex web of karmas as we go through the eons

of birth and re-birth. We are in Him and He is in us. The sum total of all

that is, and all that is not, then, is simply Him. Therefore, this Universe,

with all its myriad souls in all their various experiences based on their

karmas, is simply an extension of His Nature, His Being, a small but

important aspect of the Wondrous yet All-Loving Mystery that He is. To say

then that there was a time when one aspect of His Nature did not exist, and

needed to be created, would be to limit His very Being. Consequently, matter

and souls are part of His Nature, and like Him, eternal. He is like a

Creative Artist, who mixes the souls and the matter in a way that some liken

to how a potter would mix water and earth, to create this Beautiful Universe

with all of its myriad of places, peoples, and ideas.

 

In pralAyam, we are as much a part of Him as we are now, as well. It is only

that we are in a different state of being, a latent stage, like pure clay

waiting to be shaped. Consequently, our karmas are still there with all of

us even in this stage. The only ones who do not experience this karma are

those who have always been free of it, the nitya sUris, and those who have

been freed solely through His Grace, the Muktas. The rest of us hold on to

our experiences, which later decide our karmas, and the resulting direction

of our journey through our many lives, once He brings this Universe into

activity, again.

 

 

>

 

>

> (iii)VEdAs(Brahma sUtrAs)go by logic(vishaya,pUrva

> paksham,samshaya,siddhAntA). There has to be a sound logical

> reasoning to say that "women/sUdrAs can't hear/chant vEdAs". I can

> quote "Tirukakachi nambi and Tirumazhisai AzhwAr's life). What

> Bhagavad RAmAnujA says in his SriBhAshyam? For me RAmAnujA comes

> first then Lord SriRanganAthA/NArAyaNA!(I chant his gadya trayam).

 

As we have discussed above, Veda is unchanging Truth. Truth is something

that everyone must follow, so in essence we must all be "knowers of Veda",

irrespective of our race, our caste, or our gender. This is why our AchAryas

are able to teach Vedanta to everyone.

 

However, along with being Truth, Veda in its chanted form is Pure Energy, the

very Power that Brahma Himself recites to cause this Universe to come of its

latent state in pralayam. The secrets of this Powerful Sound Energy is God's

gift to us, such that we may invoke good things into our lives, and use them

in His Service. But, in order for this power to be efficacious, it must be

chanted with proper pronunication and intonation, some of which require

tremendous control of the breath and muscles in the stomach and chest. It

also requires the mental stamina to concentrate on each and every word,

making sure that it is recited correctly and with the right attitude such

that only the Good is invoked. It takes many years of constant training and

practice to master such control over the body and mind. Consequently, the

burden of responsibility of maintaining this chant and passing it on to

future generations has fallen upon one certain community that, historically,

had been intended for this. It particularly fell upon the male members of

this community, because the Veda itself states that both the physical rigors

of chanting properly, as well as the energy that results from it, could

potentially have negative effects on the female anatomy.

 

 

But, simply because it is the responsibility of the male members of one

community to recite Veda, this does not mean that this group has some kind of

strong-hold or some morally superior stance over others. This responsibility

is just one of many ways to serve God and His Universe. And, all ways of

serving God are good. This is what Sri Thirukacci Nambi and Sri

Thirumazhisai AzhwAr, along with many others, have shown us by teaching and

example.

 

And, for all of us, irrespective of what responsibilities we have been

blessed with to use in His Service, there are far more easier ways to feel

the bliss of knowing and enjoying Sriman Narayana. These include the

recitation of stOtras and pAsurams, that revel in His Wondrous qualities, and

service to all living beings, which is a joy in and of itself.

 

I hope this helps as a start. My sincere apologies to HH Sri Chinna Jeeyar

Swamy and all fellow devotees if anything that I have written is incorrect or

offensive in any way.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Mohan

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Sri:

SriRAmaJayam

SrimathE RAmAnujAya Nama:

 

Dear mohan,

 

Thanks a lot for your reply. I just want to say a few

things in reply to what you have written. My explanation is based on

the assumption that Sriman NArAyaNA is the Supreme and Everythingelse

other than Him is under His control. Otherwise it is going to defy

logic.

 

> As you have aptly observed, everthing in its totality is completely

dependent

> only on Sriman Narayana alone for its very being. But, being

dependent on

> God, and being authored/created by God are two different things.

Our

 

I agree to what you say(the two different perspective). When people

say that "vEdAs are ApourushEya",do they mean all kinds of authorship

or just "written/read" part? I was told that vEdAs are the breath of

Him. I'm of the opinion that HE is the author in this regard(If there

is no NArAyaNA/HE doesn't breathe then there will be no vEdAs! and it

can't happen because HE is there eternally)which is consistent with

the 15th verse(BG Ch. 15). So I interpret that HE is the author of

vEdA in this way.

 

The same Lord PArthasArathy says in 2nd verse 10th Chapter BG,that

nobody(including the gods and sages/seers)knows the origin of Him.

It's a secret. I strongly believe in this.

 

> By attributing an author to Truth, we suggest that at one time this

Truth ws

> not discovered or did not exist; in other words, it is possible to

argue

 

If I ask you "what is truth",what will be your answer? In my view,the

truth is HE. HE Himself is the author of the truth because noone else

can become its author(because no one is Superior to Him). He

represents Everything in completeness(HE being the whole)but

everythingelse(part) does not represent Him wholly.

 

 

> He is like a Creative Artist, who mixes the souls and the

> matter in a way that some liken to how a potter would mix

> water and earth, to create this Beautiful Universe

> with all of its myriad of places, peoples, and ideas.

 

As per your own statement,the potter(God)brings a shape/life to the

clay. Pots are made out of clay. So clay is the fundamental. It's God

who mixes the souls and matter as HE wishes. Soul and matter are as

fundamental as clay. The question is

 

The potter and clay now become like the seed and the tree. Which came

first? This is a mystery which Lord krSNA says in 2nd verse 10

Chapter. Or is there an answer to it? I know very little of BG. I

have sent a mail to Jeer Swamiji to clarify my doubts(whether BG is a

sruti text). Swamiji had written in the recent reply(to someone's

queries)that BhagavAn creates certain things in an order. The concept

of order is a function of time. WHen we say certain things

are "eternal" it has to be independent of time. Otherwise this will

lead to a "beginning".

 

What is "karma"? Is it a cycle of birth/death process. I was

reading "vEdAnta sUtrA by BadarAyaNA with Bladeva's commentary". IN

that it says "karma refers to the universe" acc. to SwEtAsvara

upanisad. Which is the correct one?

 

You said that in essence "we are all knowers of vEdAs". KrSNA says in

BG Ch 11:54,that "not even by the study of vEdAs,auterity,penance,can

you(ArjunA and all of us)see ME with four arms but only through

single-minded/undivided devotion". This is where RAmAnujA's

philosophy of bhakti comes into the picture. Again I don't know what

EmperumAnAr/RAmAnujA says in SriBhasyam. But I love his gadyatrayam(I

think everybody should chant it atleast once. There is something in

it I can't express).

 

Why should Lord krSNA after preaching three different yOgAs throw the

trumpet card "sarva dharmAn......mA suca:"? By a thourough study of

the vEdAs,one is not going to reach Him in vaikuNTam(that's what

SrivaishNavism says I guess). Only the selected few are in His

(ParavAsudEva)abode.

 

My knowledge is not even equal to a droplet. If I said anything wrong

in the process of explanation,please forgive me.

 

kondal vaNNanaik* kOvalanAy veNNai

uNda vAyan* ennuLLam kavanthAnai*

aNdar kOn aNi arangan* en amuthinaik

kaNda kaNgaL* maRRonRinaik kANAvE

- TiruppAN AzhwAr's AmalanAdipirAn

 

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam

sarvam krSNArpaNam astu

gita

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavad Bandhus,

 

>I was told that vEdAs are the breath of Him.

Shruti declares that vEdA-s is His breath

- tasya nishvasitam veda.

 

Best Regards,

VR