Don't mislead people away from Vedic concepts, by, imposing concepts of our mind...!!

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

 

 

Priya Sriman Shiva !

 

Ji:va is not created by GOD ! Nor this Prakruthi(Primordial Nature) is

created by GOd. The three fundamental realities ie., Thaththtwa:s viz.,

Supreme, Jiva and Prakruthi are all ana:di ie., have no origin. They are not

made by God. But, God is the 'soul' and 'support' to them. Without Him they

never exist. This is what Vedas say.

 

In the beginning, before this whole creation come into existence, all the

Jiva:s and Prakruthi exist in a very small portion of God in a far subtler and

unrecognisable form. Even then, they exist with their own individualities, but,

they all exist as the one with Paramathma.

 

This can be seen from a nice example. Take a seed. There are stems,

branches, leaves, flowers, fruits etc., in the seed. But, one cannot recognise

them separately when they are in the seed, ie., they exist in the seed as one

with the seed, but, in a subtler and unrecognisable form. When the seed is

planted and all other processes done such that the plant grows, then, those

subtler ones manifest according to their own characteristics only, but now in a

recognisable form with a name and identity.

 

You can't call the seed as many. But, there are many in it "as one". So

also God exists with these souls and Prakruthi as the one with Him ( called

"sath" ie., Paramathma ), before manifestation. After manifestation, according

to various processes, those that are till then, with that "sath" will take

respective bodies and get 'identity' and come into recognised form.

 

This acivity is termed as Creation (Srushti).

 

So "CREATION" refers to the manifestation of the objects that are in

subtler form (which are then unrecognisable),into recognisable physical form

with respective bodies as provided by Him according to their Karmas.

 

Ji:va is not made of God's soul ! Is that anywhere said in any Upanishath

or in any portion of Veda that it is so ?

 

Ji:va exists by itself, like God exists by Himself, but, God is the soul

to Jiva. Like Ji:va is the "soul", in the body of the living being, so also God

is the soul to Jiva. Without 'God as soul' there is no Jiva! It doesn't mean

that God made Ji:va.

 

This is well established in Vedas. How can you say "that God takes of bit

of..." which is baseless. Which Bhakthisiddhantha described this ???

 

So according to Vedas, the statement "its not the jivas have

always....infinte reality" is wrong.

 

If I say there exists fruit, can any one say that there is no colour to

it?

 

If I say there exists colour can any one say there is no object?

 

The example given towards the end is similar to the above argument.

 

The statement that "Therefore to say there is only Hari is partially

correct..." is thus wrong according the to explanation given all above.

 

It is great that you have rightly understood "It is true that we are not

Hari !!"

 

Then, it is true that everything is Hari "in full", because if Hari is not

there, that entity itself is not there. Because of Hari only it has got whatever

the existence at all.

 

If there is no Hari, "I" am not there, so if I am there then it means

there is Hari. He is total controller over all His attributes and there is no

way that "He is not there and His attributes exist". So He is the omnipresent

one. "He" itself means He with all His attributes.

 

Like "you" means you with your body, with all the available limbs, with

some shape, size, colour, weight etc. It is inappropriate to say that "leg

came and kicked me" instead of saying "you have kicked me or somebody kicked

me", because there is no separate existence for leg without you or somebody, so

also there is no separate existence for the Jivas without Him. So if it is said

that there exists something with "Him"(Supreme) that is not "He"(Supreme) and

because of that "He"(Supreme) is not omnipresent is so illogical and improper.

 

Hence, it is clear that He is omnipresent.

 

Thus, the statement "to say that there is only Hari is

partially........process" is absolutely wrong as it is clear that "He"

is all powerful and omnipresent.

 

You have rightly understood that we are very limited by our nature,

whereas that of Hari is unlimited.

 

From the above explanations it is clear that, the statement "this should

be obvious, if you take vedas all in all....rethink... come out logical" is so

futile and stands void from the above answer.

 

Bhagavad Ramanuja has given "wonderful" explanations having delved into

the depths of the ocean of Sasthra. He lived a life equal to the lives of

millions in studying and assimilating the facts discussed in the Sasthras such

that there is NO NEED EVER ever to rethink the interpretation of the Vedic

literature as presented by him.

 

It is We who need to rethink ourselves, how far we are from the exact

Truth !!. Is it the Truth you require ? or to to stand-up to your own

preoccupied, superimposed convictions, you require ?? Our own thoughts,

imaginations, conceptions and assumptions that fall within the framework of our

fickle, limited mind has very little place in proving the Universal Truths.

 

Our realised Acharyas only can guide us to come out of the cages we have

built around ourselves.

 

Vedas are the eternal Truths. They stand valid for ever. Even "God"

abides by them, very strictly !! Man has no way to disobey them or to ignore

them too !! "if" he wishes to realise the actual truths and reach the ultimate

goal for which he was born on this Earth. Otherwise, howmany beings, animals

etc., even human beings.. are not circling in the birth-death cycle, going

through sufferings and miseries ??

 

Let us not become one among the losers. This is the one life we know !!

Let us know the Truths exactly, atleast those, proved and taught by our realised

Acharyas like Bhagavad Ramanuja, by running to an Acharya, who, readily awaits

to bless, (krupa:ma:thra prasanna:charya) all the fallen souls like us, onto the

right path of the Ultimate Goal.

 

PRAMANAS

***********

Note: The word 'God' used above in the answer refers to Paramathma, the

Supreme Bramha only.

 

Some Vedic Pramanas and Githa Pramanas for the answers given in this mail

are enlisted here below, whose right interpretation and explanation may be known

directly from such realised Acharya.

 

1) "sade:va so:mya idamagra a:si:th e:kame:va advithi:yam"

 

 

O! dear so:mya (swe:thake:thu) idam = this world, as it exists

today

agre: = (in the beginning) before creation,

sath e:va = in the form of sath (Parama:thma) only.

a:sith = existed. e:kame:va = as sole one

adwithi:yam = there is no second one who equals Him

 

2) "ayam a:thma: bramha:"

 

this ji:va is the one who has Bramha as His soul.

 

3) "thath thwam asi"

 

You(jiva) are (the one), with "Him" as your soul.

 

4) "jna ajnow dvow ajow i:sani:sow "

 

Jnaha = one who has infinite knowledge ie., Parama:thma

ajnaha = Ji:va:thma (whose Knowledge is nil when compared to that

of Paramathma, like a drop of water cannot be compared with the ocean)

is:sani:sow = (they are) Controller and controlled respectively.

dvow = both of them

ajow = (are) not born

 

5) "mamaiva amso: ji:valo:ke: ji:vabhu:thas sana:thanaha"

- Bhagavadgitha

 

***************

 

Jai Srimannarayana !

 

 

 

srikaryam

 

=krishna ramanuja dasa=

 

 

 

 

> Message: 3

> Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:39:21 -0000

> "sssshiva2002" <sssshiva2002

> origin and nature of jiva

 

>

> The jiva is given identity from the soul of God, god takes a bit of

> his/her soul

> and imbues it with individuality, or how Bhaktisiddhanta describes it

> "an adultered portion of divinity".

>

> this is why bhedabheda is in effect, we are made of god's soul,

> therefore we exist as a shared consciousness.

>

> it's not that jivas have always existed, for a jiva to exist ,God has

> to adulter a portion of him/herself, and imbue that portion with self

> awareness.

>

> since we are made up of a portion of the eternal we therefore can be

> considered without beginning, but in fact our individuality had to

> be adultered from the One eternal consciousness/infinite reality.

>

> to say that there is only Hari is only partially correct, the vedic

> scriptures do this all the time,all shastra ,all verses do not give

> the full story in every verse, it is a step by step process.

>

> I think therefore i am, Am I existing everywhere ?

> No, Is Hari existing everywhere ? yes

>

> Therefore I am not Hari,therefore everything is not Hari in full.

>

> Since we exist as part of Hari, we are therefore partially Hari,

> since Hari also has an existence beyond our limited one, we are not

> the same as Hari.

>

> therefore we are comprised of Hari and are one with Hari,also Hari

> has many aspects of existence that we do not partakle of therfore we

> are unique from Hari, Hari is all, we are not.

>

> Therefore to say there is only Hari is partially correct, there is

> Hari and there is ourselves, bhedabheda, all is Hari, and there is

> part of Hari that is different then Hari, not all powerfull, not

> omnipresent, and limited by our nature,whereas Hari is unlimited.

>

> This should be obvious, if you take the vedas as all in all, and your

> concept includes illogical conclusion, like there is only Hari, when

> we know we exist and we are not Hari, then you have to rethink your

> interpretation of the vedic literature to make it come out logical.

>

 

> Message: 3

> Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:39:21 -0000

> "sssshiva2002" <sssshiva2002

> origin and nature of jiva

>

> The jiva is given identity from the soul of God, god takes a bit of

> his/her soul

> and imbues it with individuality, or how Bhaktisiddhanta describes it

> "an adultered portion of divinity".

>

> this is why bhedabheda is in effect, we are made of god's soul,

> therefore we exist as a shared consciousness.

>

> it's not that jivas have always existed, for a jiva to exist ,God has

> to adulter a portion of him/herself, and imbue that portion with self

> awareness.

>

> since we are made up of a portion of the eternal we therefore can be

> considered without beginning, but in fact our individuality had to

> be adultered from the One eternal consciousness/infinite reality.

>

> to say that there is only Hari is only partially correct, the vedic

> scriptures do this all the time,all shastra ,all verses do not give

> the full story in every verse, it is a step by step process.

>

> I think therefore i am, Am I existing everywhere ?

> No, Is Hari existing everywhere ? yes

>

> Therefore I am not Hari,therefore everything is not Hari in full.

>

> Since we exist as part of Hari, we are therefore partially Hari,

> since Hari also has an existence beyond our limited one, we are not

> the same as Hari.

>

> therefore we are comprised of Hari and are one with Hari,also Hari

> has many aspects of existence that we do not partakle of therfore we

> are unique from Hari, Hari is all, we are not.

>

> Therefore to say there is only Hari is partially correct, there is

> Hari and there is ourselves, bhedabheda, all is Hari, and there is

> part of Hari that is different then Hari, not all powerfull, not

> omnipresent, and limited by our nature,whereas Hari is unlimited.

>

> This should be obvious, if you take the vedas as all in all, and your

> concept includes illogical conclusion, like there is only Hari, when

> we know we exist and we are not Hari, then you have to rethink your

> interpretation of the vedic literature to make it come out logical.

>

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

i am under the impression that Sri Ramanuja said that the jiva is manifest from

God.

 

this is my position,to say that we exist as seperate from the soul of God is

impossible.

 

Brahman = the impersonal aspect of the supreme being, all pervading infinite

field of unlimited energy.

 

Paramatma = the "Param" supreme or super, "atma" ,soul or consciousness. This is

the consciousness of Brahman, the infinite field of unlimited energy is alive,

and that consciousness is able to have full awareness present at any point

within it, without losing any awareness anywhere else within it, simultaneously

being the consciousness of the infinite energy and also the energy itself.

 

Bhagavan = the personality of that being, personality being the id, or self

conception or psyche, this is the controlling aspect of Brahman/Paramatma.

 

therefore the Brahma Samhita says, Isvara Parama Krsna, and Sarva Karana

Karanam, or , Krsna is the supreme controller, and the cause of all causes, all

things that happen are caused by the Personality of Godhead, as the Personality

is the controlling aspect of any person.

 

this should clear up any misconceptions.

 

so all things exist within god's soul, it is impossible for there to exist

anything that doesn't exist within the field of infinite super conscious energy

or God.

 

As individuals we partake of the cognizant aspect of God's soul, we do not

partake of the energy aspect, although we are given limited access to and use of

it at God's wish and will.

 

to say that we existed in some small space somewhere in an subtle form

,unconscious, and unmanifest, is a philosophical concept of even more

subtleness.

 

we existed in some small space.

 

yes, i agree, but that small space was the imagination of God, it took his

actual effort to bring about our being.