Guest guest Posted January 29, 2000 Report Share Posted January 29, 2000 Dheeraj Verma wrote:May I receive some very forceful articles on countering Darvinism. Hare Krishna! All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! please accept my humble obeisances. Charles Darwin Philosophy Prabhupada: No, no, no. If from monkey, man is coming, so then when monkey develops into man, the monkey should not exist. Karya-karanam, cause and effect. When the effect is there, the cause is finished now. Syamasundara: The monkey didn't cause the man; they came from the same common ancestor. That is their explanation. They... Prabhupada: That is, we say that all we come from God, the same ancestors, the same father. What is the difference? Bali-mardana: Everyone has the same ancestor. Prabhupada: The same ancestor. What is the new thing? Syamasundara: But if I am a Darwinist, your explanations are still not satisfactory to me. I'm not convinced because I see... Prabhupada: My explanation is that the original father is Krsna. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, sarva-yonisu kaunteya: "As many forms are there, I am the bija pradah pita, I am the seed-giving father." So what is your objection to this? Syamasundara: Well, if I examine the layers of earth, I find no evidence in any of the layers below of any... Prabhupada: You are packed up with the layers of the earth, that is all. That is your boundary of knowledge. That is not knowledge. There are many other evidences. Syamasundara: But certainly, if there were men living millions of years ago, they would have... Prabhupada: But man is still living. Man is still living. Syamasundara: ...they would have left evidence behind them, tangible evidence, that I could see the remains of their civilization. Prabhupada: So if I say that the human society, man after death is burned into ashes, so where does he get the bones? Syamasundara: Well, that's possible, but... Prabhupada: According to our Vedic system, when a man is dead, he is burned into ashes. Where..., why the rascal would get the bones? Syamasundara: But there are not other... There are no cities... Prabhupada: The animals, they are not burned. They remain. But human beings they burn into ashes. So he cannot find the human bones. Bali-mardana: Another thing is that after a certain number of years, bones cease to be bones. They turn back into chemicals and merge into the earth. Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: But what about cities and tools, these things? There must be some evidence. In the lowest layer there are clam shells that have become fossilized. In the lower levels millions of years back they find clam shells. Bali-mardana: They say it's been millions of years, but how do they prove it has been millions of years? Syamasundara: Through radioactivity. Bali-mardana: But that is an imperfect method, devised by imperfect senses. Svarupa Damodara: It is limited. It is limited. It is very hard to find five thousand or six thousand years back. Bali-mardana: They don't even agree amongst each other about what the age of things are. Syamasundara: Just like if you go down a hundred feet below the soil, that soil has been down there for a long time. But there is no evidences of men, actually civilized creatures. Prabhupada: Why he is trying to find out men's bones there? What is the... Syamasundara: I'm just saying that it appears, because layer after layer is deposited in the earth's crust, that the animal forms are evolving toward more complex forms, from simple animals to bigger animals, and then more complex, then to the civilized man. Prabhupada: From where it began? Syamasundara: It began with the simplest form. Prabhupada: What is that simplest form? Syamasundara: Small one-celled animals, then bivalves, then mollusks, then simple forms of aquatics. Bali-mardana: So the one-celled animals must be God. Syamasundara: That isn't what I'm talking about; I'm just saying that this evolution appears to exist, evolution of species, from simplest forms to more complex forms. That's Darwin's idea. Prabhupada: But the simplest form is still existing and the complex form is also existing at the present moment. Not that from the simplest form developed, developed, developed. Just like development means, just like I have developed my childhood body. The childhood body is no more there. But it is a fact I have developed from childhood body to this body. There are so many. So similarly, all the species are existing simultaneously, still. Syamasundara: They find no evidence in the earlier times that these complex forms existed. Prabhupada: No, no. Earlier times or modern times, when I see all different species, 8,400,000 species of life still existing, so what is the question of development? It existed long ago also. You might not have seen it, you have not source of knowledge to understand, but you have to accept it, because all these species are now existing. Similarly, millions of years ago all these species existed. You might have missed. That is a different thing. Syamasundara: Then it is simply a matter of one opinion against another, because the scientists say... Prabhupada: No. It is not opinion, it is a fact. Do you think that this development has ceased all other species, simply human being is there? Syamasundara: No. But I don't see evidence that all these complex forms... Prabhupada: I have said that one, this, by evolution, one after another, the human form is there. The Darwin theory is that some forty thousand years ago there was no human beings. Syamasundara: Several million years. Prabhupada: But we don't see that. Because at the present moment we see that all the species are there existing, including human beings. Syamasundara: He says that they evolved. That is... Prabhupada: They evolved, but they are still existing. Evolved, that is another thing. But all of them are existing still. So how you can say that millions of years they did not exist, all? His theory is that... Syamasundara: Because there is not evidence that they exist. Prabhupada: This is the evidence: if now all the species of life are existing, why not millions of years ago? What do you say? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. It was existing, but simply we did not know. Prabhupada: Yes. That is one-sided test. Syamasundara: You can say they existed, but show me. I don't see any proof. Prabhupada: You do not see the animals, aquatics, birds, bees, trees--everything--is existing? Syamasundara: Yes. But ten million years ago, according to my excavations, there were no beasts; there were all aquatics. Prabhupada: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Ten millions of... Ten million years ago... You cannot give a history of ten millions. It is your imagination. Where is the history of ten millions of years? You are simply imagining, that is your word. But where is historical evidence? You cannot give history more than three thousand years, and you are speaking of ten millions of years. This is all nonsense. How can you go... There is no history in the human civilization for ten millions of years. Syamasundara: If I dig far into the ground, layer by layer... Prabhupada: No, no. Dirt... You are calculating ten millions--it may be ten years. Because you cannot give history of the human society more than three thousand years, so how can you speak of ten million, twenty million? Where were you then? It is all imagination. You were existing(?), so existence was not there. How can you say that ten million or twenty million years ago these things happened? This is simply imagination. In that way everyone can imagine and say some nonsense. Everyone can imagine their own way. I can say "No, it is not ten million years. It is fifty millions years." Syamasundara: They have a scientific way of testing that things disintegrate at a certain rate. Prabhupada: But here is a scientist, and he does not agree with that. Syamasundara: What about the half-life of certain elements? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. The, normally, what they call the age determination, or how old a species is, they normally find out from this so-called (indistinct). They find some bone or something which contains normally carbon(ate). And they get this age of the elements or age of these findings by so-called Carbon 14 method. Carbon 14 is an isotope of normal carbon, it is called Carbon 12. Carbon 14 is radioactive. It's one they put in the radioactive testing, and they find out because it follows the normal chemical laws or physical laws. This is governed by the Lord Himself, by Krsna Himself. They're finding the chemical lowest form, and from that chemical lowest they normally try to reduce the, how old the sample is, and that method is very limited, it is not (indistinct). (break) Prabhupada: ...fact, because we see all different species of life existing along with human beings. Therefore it should be concluded this is always existing. Human life is always existing. That is our first charge against him. He cannot say there was no human life. Syamasundara: But we do not see any dinosaurs existing. Prabhupada: You do not see--your power is very limited--but we have to conclude in this way, when we see at the present moment all the different species of life are existing. Therefore it is existing always. Syamasundara: But I don't see all the... Prabhupada: You don't see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited. You don't see. And because you don't see, it is not to be accepted. So many people say, "I don't see God." That does not mean we shall accept, "Oh, so many people say--majority of people, will say like that--'We don't see God.' " Then we are merely crazy fellow, we are after God? Syamasundara: No. But dinosaurs... Prabhupada: But simply by dinosaurs missing you cannot say that what about other all species of life, other. Syamasundara: Many, many, many, many are extinct, according to... Prabhupada: I am accepting many are extinct, but the evolutionary process, it means one extinct, another comes. But we see that the monkey, from monkey, man comes. The monkey is there and man is there. The monkey is not finished. Syamasundara: I remember last time when we discussed this, you said, "Well, then, why don't we see men coming out of monkeys still?" Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: "Why hasn't some man been born out of a monkey?" Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: "In our experience..." Prabhupada: The monkey is existing and man is existing. Syamasundara: "So if men came from monkeys, why don't we see it still happening?" That's what you said. Prabhupada: Yes. That is our argument. Syamasundara: So if you accept that there is an evolution, do you accept that the bodies change because of changing conditions of the natural surroundings? Prabhupada: Body is not changing. The body is already there. The soul is changing bodies, transmigrating from one body to another. Bali-mardana: Darwin doesn't accept that there is a fixed number of species. Rather, the number of species may vary at any time according to the natural selection. But he doesn't give any axiom that there are certain numbers of species from which all other variations come. We are saying that there are 8,400,000 species to begin with. Prabhupada: But if first of all you give account for eight million species--you have no account. We say these are the fixed-up species. But your calculation of species, first of all give us account for eight millions, then you say, "The list is not complete." Syamasundara: Their idea is that there's constant... Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, within that eight millions, but you cannot give us list. Syamasundara: They say that there is new species always evolving. Prabhupada: That is not new. That is within the eight millions. You could not find the same thing, you could not find, before that; now we are finding your species. You could (not) give us a complete list. What is the evolutionary process wherefrom it began and how it's coming? You cannot give any fixed-up list. That is your imperfect knowledge. You are simply imagining. "It may be changed,It may be chance," or this or that. That's all. Syamasundara: Just like, let's say some condition changes suddenly in an environment... Prabhupada: Yes. Any condition changes, but within the eight millions. Because you cannot give us any list, so then you have to accept whatever species of life may take by changes or circumstance with this or that. That will be within the eight millions. Syamasundara: Just like if you open(?) a marketplace, at any given point you can go through the marketplace and see that there's this kind of person, this kind of person and... Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: And he may go away from the marketplace. So if because he goes away, you can't say that that person doesn't exist any more because he's not observable there. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Svarupa Damodara: Actually, in Darwin's concept he used the natural selection, but he doesn't go far enough what that nature is. He used the term "natural," but he does not know how to... Prabhupada: Yes. Explain what is nature. That means insufficient knowledge. Syamasundara: He simply observed there are mutations in nature. For instance, he thinks that perhaps at one time... Prabhupada: That means nature is working. Syamasundara: Yes. Prabhupada: Nature is working, but he cannot explain how nature is working. Syamasundara: At one time he says that one ape developed an opposing thumb so he was able to use tools, grasp things, so he became superior and passed that quality on to his offspring and that developed into man. Simply by... Prabhupada: Then when there is offspring, then the same question comes: "Why the monkey does not produce offspring--a man?" What is this nonsense? Bali-mardana: Scientists often take the shelter of this premise, that it's not..., we don't..., we're not trying to find out. Whenever they're asked what is the original source, they say, "We're not concerned with that. We're concerned with just examining the phenomenon of that source." Prabhupada: Yes. That is childish. That is childish. Just like I have seen the phenomena, without man there cannot be singing. In the box there must be one man there. This is childish calculation, that's all. Phenomenal study means childish. A fan, in our childhood we will think that a fan is running, there must be some ghost who is running it. So this sort of phenomenal study is not scientific study. It is not scientific. If we don't find the original cause, that is not scientific. Bali-mardana: That's what they're looking for. But because they can't produce a satisfactory answer, they have to say, "Well, we're not looking for that." They can't come forward with an answer. Prabhupada: Yes. That is, what it is called? (Sanskrit), principle logic, or something like that, it is called. Syamasundara: (indistinct) in question. Prabhupada: That is not perfect knowledge. Syamasundara: You must admit, though, being a scientist, that supposing you go down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, you see so many layers of earth going up thousands of feet, that the layers at the bottom are very, very old. You must admit, because the earth takes so many years to deposit soil. Even if it's only one million years, it's still very old. And in that lowest layer we find only evidences of simple... Prabhupada: Where is the lowest layer, he has gone? Where is it? Wherefrom it begins? Syamasundara: The Grand Canyon is an example. That's a very deep canyon in the ground in Arizona. Svarupa Damodara: What happens if there was no human beings in that area? Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: Human beings aside, we still find... Prabhupada: Just like desert. Desert there is no human beings. If you dig the desert, what you will find? Syamasundara: That's all right. It doesn't matter if it was ocean; still we find gradually the forms become more and more complex toward the... Prabhupada: But we cannot say where is the beginning and where is the end. Syamasundara: No. That we can't say. Prabhupada: Therefore his knowledge is imperfect. Syamasundara: He said that if we say the origin of species is the simplest form, one-celled... Prabhupada: How the species living force came in? What is the cause? How it is coming? Wherefrom the life begins? Bali-mardana: It still evades the principal question of who is the creator. I can build a big house or I can build a small box. The point is, who is the builder? So it's evading the question of who... Even if everything started with a one-celled animal, what started the one-celled animal? Prabhupada: Yes. Wherefrom the one cell came? Syamasundara: That they say. He says (it) comes from four different chemicals: oxygen, hydrogen... Prabhupada: Well, wherefrom the chemical came? They're not questioning. Who supplied the chemical? Syamasundara: We still may be able to discover some day... Prabhupada: That means you are fool, that you are granted. As soon as you say "still," that means you are fool number one. That is our (indistinct). Svarupa Damodara: That's what the modern scientists are doing. They're trying to make life in a test tube. What they are trying to do, these so-called biochemists, at the present time the goal is to make life in a test tube. So what they do is they are going to put so-called big molecules--they say DNA, dioxynucleic acid. This molecule is a necessary molecule for..., it's life maintaining. So they're going to make certain combinations of these molecules and put in the test tube and find out whether there is life coming out from the test tube, and then trying to prove how life was formed. But it's such a foolish idea that they will never be able to make the... Prabhupada: They are a set of fools. And going on under the name of scientists. Set of fools. Svarupa Damodara: On the other hand, the so-called physicist... His name was Heisenberg. He produced the concept of the theory of uncertainty, and he found out that certain physical rules that govern certain parts of the so-called universal system of rules--why the planets are moving around the sun, and why they repeated course and so on. But he did not know what was the answer. So he named the title of the theory, the Theory of Uncertainty. Based on that, there are so many groups coming up, but they found that uncertainty itself, that implies that there is some... Prabhupada: Basic principle is uncertainty, and they're building on big, big buildings. Syamasundara: Darwin calls it the missing link. Prabhupada: That missing link, let them learn from us. We can give him the missing link. Bali-mardana: But ultimately they'll say it'll come down to if we propose that Krsna is the creator or that God is the creator, then they'll say "That must be proved to me." In other words, they want to fit God within their own empiric gaze. That will be their only satisfaction when they actually become able to circumvent God's existence and create a power by their own intelligence. Prabhupada: He has to admit that the theory of uncertainty is bogus, but everything is there, and that behind all these things there must be big brain. That one has to accept. Simply uncertainty, that is not a science. The certainty is that behind all these things there is a big brain. I do not know Him--that is a different thing--but there is a big brain. Syamasundara: Darwin, he was not so much interested in those questions of origin and those things, but he was a botanist and a biologist, and he simply wanted to investigate how things evolved from one simple form to a more complex form... Prabhupada: That he cannot say, how the... He captured something out of his imagination, but he cannot explain scientifically. Syamasundara: From simple forms to more complex forms. Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: Well, he says that this happens through mutation. Prabhupada: But then do it in the laboratory by mutation, by combination. Syamasundara: They can do that. Prabhupada: No. But he just said that is not possible. Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, they find that just like I said already, the basic elements of life--carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen... Syamasundara: You know the theory, not theory but practical proof, that the genes can be mutated by bombarding with cosmic rays. Svarupa Damodara: Yes. That they prove by so-called... That's why the concern... The example of that mutation is the cancer cell. They try to find out how cancer is caused in the body. They say that somehow the cell has been changed, and they say that it has been done by mutation, and they try to prove it in the laboratory by changing the structure of the cell, and that is called mutation. So they say why the cancer is formed because cancer is an abnormal cell, this is a normal cell. So answering why these elements are formed from these basic four chemicals--carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen--they try, they say that somehow this nitrogen and hydrogen, they combine forming ammonia. That is called ammonia, from nitrogen and hydrogen. They say somehow this has formed, and somehow, by combination of hydrogen and oxygen, water is formed. And somehow by combination of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, these so-called carbohydrates, or these are formed. But they say somehow these are formed, but they do not know how it is formed. Syamasundara: But all that Darwin is interested in is in the evolution of species: how one type of body evolves to the other type due to the changing conditions, and that because he has evolved a certain body he is best adapted to survive in that condition so that his species survives. So the scientists have shown that by bombarding the cosmic radioactive elements, that a gene or cell can change, mutate, so a different kind of animal comes out. From one kind of mother a different kind of animal comes out. Prabhupada: But we say that different kind of animal is not beyond these 8,400,000 species. Svarupa Damodara: Actually this is not completely different animal. Some of these properties... Syamasundara: A variation. Svarupa Damodara: Just a little change. But another point in that connection is that nature makes its own (indistinct) balance of all the species, and it could have been all a balance. That is why, when nature is balancing all the species, there is no question of making another species fresh or something. This has been already made. It has already been done by nature. What is that nature, you have to ask by going to the real nature, not this false nature. Syamasundara: Just like Darwin first investigated some islands off of Peru, Galapagos Islands, and he found different species of life that exist there that don't exist anywhere else, so that they must have evolved... Prabhupada: That means that he has not seen all the species, because he has not traveled all over the universe. He has seen one island but he has not seen the whole creation, Yes? How he can fix up. There may be many others he has not seen. Syamasundara: But the only thing that I want to get at is... Prabhupada: The only thing he has has studied, this earthly planet... Syamasundara: ...how the bodies change. Prabhupada: ...but there are many other millions of planets, he has not seen all of them. He has not excavated, dug the depth of all the planets, so how he can conclude that this is all? He has not seen everything, neither it is possible for this. Syamasundara: But according to the conditions, different conditions on this planet, natural conditions, certain animals... Prabhupada: Yes. But he has not seen different conditions in different planets. Suppose the sun planet, the condition is fire. So how life can exist in the fire, he has no knowledge. Bali-mardana: You point out in the introduction to Sri Isopanisad that deductive conclusions are always imperfect because you have to be able to deduce everything in order to come out to the right conclusion. Just like if you live in a village where everyone is only five feet tall, you may deduct that everyone in existence is only five feet tall; but if you go to the next village you may find someone who is six feet tall. So you have to search out every village and see every person before you... Prabhupada: That is not possible for you. How many millions of villages are there? Syamasundara: Yes. But see, we're talking about two different things now. He is talking about the doctrine of natural selection or survival of the fittest... Prabhupada: But natural selection, that means it is not his selection. Natural selection. Syamasundara: Natural selection. Prabhupada: So nature is more powerful than him. So he has not studied nature. Syamasundara: He studies how the bodies change in nature. Prabhupada: No. He has not studied. He has studied in a particular place only. But nature means, when you speak of nature, suppose you have studied within this planet, but in nature means there is millions of universes, but he has not studied them. Syamasundara: So you say the doctrine of natural selection is not... Prabhupada: Natural selection is there, but how the natural selection is working, he does not know that. Bali-mardana: In a sense we know from Vedic information that the species from one end from the smallest germ up to the highest demigod, they are progressively more advanced. So anyone can come along and take out a small eclipsed portion of that sequence and propose the theory that the species is advancing, but that gamut, that range, perspective of higher and lower is existing, but not that it's evolving... Prabhupada: It is already there. I am simply changing place, transmigration. That is our theory--transmigration. Syamasundara: But you still haven't answered satisfactorily... Prabhupada: Just like you are traveling in a train. There is first class, second class--that is already existing. But if you pay more, you come to the first class. You cannot say, "Now the first class is now created." It was already existing. So their defect is that they have no information of the soul. The soul is transmigrating. The forms are already there. The soul is transmigrating from one apartment to another apartment. That they do not know. Syamasundara: But still I'm not convinced that if we make geologic investigations all over the world, not just the Grand Canyon or here or there, but in many parts of the world we always find the same thing, that the... Prabhupada: But if you say that you have studied all over the world, I say you have not studied all over the planet. That is still defective. Syamasundara: Let's just confine it to this planet. Prabhupada: No. Why should you confine it? Nature is not only within this planet. Syamasundara: Because you said that millions of years ago there were many complex forms of life existing on this planet. Prabhupada: No. Not on this planet; maybe anywhere. It is when you say nature, nature is not confined--what is called--limited within this planet. That you cannot say. When you say nature, this material nature, there are millions of universes and millions of planets in each and every universe. If you have studied... Suppose you have studied this planet; that is not sufficient knowledge. Syamasundara: So, but you said before that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet: men, horses, animals, elephants... Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Syamasundara: But from hundreds of different sources of this... Prabhupada: But I say, I say that it is still existing. The man is existing, the horse is existing, the snake is existing, the insect is existing, the trees are existing; why not millions of years ago? Syamasundara: Because there's no evidence. Prabhupada: This is the evidence. This is the evidence. You cannot give the history of this planet. Now suppose the existence of sun, you cannot give history. The sun is existing millions of years ago. It is not that sun is created now. The sun is existing now, the moon is existing now, so why should not they come from millions of years also? The sun existing, and within the sun everything is existing. So if the sun is existing, then other things must be existing. That is my (indistinct). Syamasundara: They may be existing, but on this planet we have no evidence... Prabhupada: That doesn't mean... That means you limit your study to one planet. That is not full knowledge. Syamasundara: I just want to find out for the time being about... Prabhupada: Why time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point. Syamasundara: Well, if you make claims that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet... Prabhupada: Why you are... I never said on this planet. By nature's way everything is existing. Syamasundara: So on this planet there were not complex forms of life millions of years ago... Prabhupada: So maybe; may not be. That is not of the point. The point is that everything is existing in the nature's way. The species, as we say from Vedic language, 8,400,000, fixed-up. So maybe in your neighborhood, in my neighborhood, it is, they have got..., they are fixed up. But you simply, if you study your neighborhood, that is not perfect knowledge. Syamasundara: I accept that. But I want to understand that the theory of evolution is that... Prabhupada: Theory of evolution we accept. Syamasundara: ...from simple forms of life, more complex forms evolve. Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. But they are all existing still. They are not extinct. That is the point. Syamasundara: All right. But on this planet, now if we could examine this planet... Prabhupada: Again you come to this planet. Why you are sticking to this planet? Bali-mardana: Lord Brahma, the most complex... From the Vedic information we find that the most complex living entity was first, and from him, he created all the variations. So from the most complex the most simple was evolved. Then if you have the wrong information, you could look at it and say it was the opposite, that from the most simple the most complex evolved. The sequence is there, and if you observe it in the wrong way, you may conclude it's going in the opposite direction. Syamasundara: But in the Vedic scriptures... Prabhupada: The first creature is Brahma, the most intelligent, the most learned. Syamasundara: ...and he said, and you say that on this planet there were pastimes, for instance, of Lord Ramacandra millions of years ago, with His men, His animals, His horses, deers, so many things. But in all of our evidences we find only at that time the most simple forms of life... Prabhupada: Your evidence... You will be satisfied with your evidence, but I have got my own evidence. Why shall I accept your evidence? You cannot force your evidence, your so-called evidence upon me. What is evidence? First of all you have to select, what is that evidence. Syamasundara: Terrestrial, archaeological findings... Prabhupada: No. No. That is not evidence. That is not evidence. Bali-mardana: If you find a bone, how do you know it's not... Prabhupada: That is imperfect. You have studied one portion of the creation. That is not evidence. In other portion of the creation there is different. But that is not evidence. Your study, your limited study is not evidence. Svarupa Damodara: So the evidence posed by Darwin's theory is not enough to explain... Prabhupada: Yes. Syamasundara: Yes. I agree with that. It doesn't explain there is an evolution... Prabhupada: Evolution we accept. There is no quarrel about that point. But we say there are 8,400,000 species of life, evolution is coming through that. But you cannot give us any list that so many... We give real evolution, that there are 8,400,000 species of life, and the living entity coming through that. (break) ...evolution is taking from here to here, and how many there are? You cannot say. You simply say "missing,something missing,something is added," all vague. Syamasundara: That admitted, but... Prabhupada: If you admit that you are imperfect in knowledge, then it is no use citing scripture. There will... Syamasundara: But what I want to know is that... Prabhupada: ...evolution we admit. But your evolution theory is not perfect. Our evolutionary theory is perfect. Syamasundara: But it appears that the evolution is from simple to complex. Prabhupada: That we admit, simple. That we admit. But you cannot say what is the simple and what is the complex one, what are they... You say something missing. That is evasive. Why you should be missing if you are in knowledge? You must say this thing is missing, that you have no knowledge. Bali-mardana: It's just an axiom, that if any part of the knowledge is perfect, then the whole knowledge is perfect. If you have any part of the truth, you have to have the whole truth in the highest sense. So if their theory is at all correct, and any of the premises are solid, then why it doesn't conclude itself by its own logical deduction? Why it would always have to allude to something missing, some missing factor? Prabhupada: Jiva jatisu. The Padma Purana says jiva jatisu, so different species of life. And they give: from this, this; from this, this; from this, this. Then, just like it is said that from bird's life the beast's life comes. Now the beasts, this category is of three millions types of beasts. Syamasundara: Just like they find evidence of large bird, pterodactyl, which has beastlike qualities and has legs also, and they say from that kind of bird evolved a more beastlike As you say, beasts. Prabhupada: Just like we said that krmayo rudra-sankhyakah paksinam dasa-laksanam. From the insect life the bird's life developed. That we see practically. One has become flying, pterodactyl; in the grass, worm becomes a butterfly. That is, that is evidence. Syamasundara: But at that time were there only insects existing? Prabhupada: No. Everything was existing. Bali-mardana: That's not evolution of the species, it's evolution of the soul through the existing species. Prabhupada: Transmigration from one body to another. The bodies are already existing. Syamasundara: For instance, they say that during the Ice Age, when there were..., the earth became very cold, and there were great ice formations in Europe and America, that this animal that they call the mammoth--it's an elephantlike animal but it had long, very long hair for warmth--suddenly this species appears. Does it mean that that body existed always somewhere else, but it just suddenly appeared here... Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Syamasundara: ...in order to live here in that environment? Prabhupada: Yes. Bali-mardana: What if it is indeed a different species? What do they qualify as the difference in species? I mean, like one man has lots of hair on his body and one man doesn't. That doesn't make him a different species necessarily. Syamasundara: Yes. But in this case elephants always lived in tropical. They were living in hot climates, and suddenly they had to adapt to the cold. Prabhupada: Again, that's like we have got experience that the change of season. Different animals are also produced with the change of season. But it is not that they are coming new. They are already existing. Syamasundara: They're appearing. Prabhupada: Yes. Bali-mardana: Appearing and disappearing according to seasons. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this Los Angeles City, there is a havoc of flood from the ocean and all men die. That does not mean extinct; the men are there somewhere else. You cannot say that human species are now extinct, because your study is limited. Syamasundara: Supposing one man in particularly adapted, and he is smart, intelligent, and he survives when everything else is killed... Prabhupada: That he may survive, that we don't disagree. Syamasundara: But he would say that that man passes on his superior traits to his children, and it's another species. Prabhupada: No. He survives, but many other men like him, they are existing somewhere. He may survive of this catastrophe, but that does not mean that other men are all extinct. You cannot say that. In these circumstances this man may survive or may not survive, but man is existing somewhere else. Syamasundara: And another example, for instance there is a dog called the Pekingese dog. It was made by man, developed by man. They took a certain type of dog and crushed it's jaws in so many instances until eventually that trait was passed on naturally to its children... Prabhupada: But he is still, it belongs to the dog species. We are speaking of dog species. Syamasundara: But it is a new type of dog. New type. Never existed before that, here. Prabhupada: New type, that will not exist also. Because it has been artificially made, it is existing now; now it will not exist again. Bali-mardana: There's a kind of Indians, when the babies are young they put a board on their head so that (indistinct) like that. Syamasundara: But now this dog is produced naturally, with its face like that. Bali-mardana: But it's still a dog. Prabhupada: The dog species. Syamasundara: But it's a new species of dog. Bali-mardana: Well, they call it a new species, but according to Vedic definition it isn't a new species. Syamasundara: What did you just define by species? You mean different types of men, you say... Prabhupada: The species, definition of species according to biology is different. We say species means jati, human race. Syamasundara: So four hundred thousand species of humans. Bali-mardana: Different levels of consciousness? Prabhupada: Different levels of consciousness. Syamasundara: I see. Bali-mardana: And within any species there can an infinite variety of variations of that one species. Just like... Prabhupada: Just like the scientists, their species is different. Just like we are making division that 400,000 different types of men. They will say this is one species. Syamasundara: So would you say, for instance, someone who is less intelligent or more intelligent than I am is in a different species? Prabhupada: Less intelligent or more intelligent, that does not make any species, because suppose you have got five children, one is less intelligent, more intelligent. Syamasundara: He was just saying levels of consciousness determine the species. Prabhupada: Yes. This is levels of consciousness, that just like we divide the human society: some men are brahmana, some men are ksatriya, some men are vaisya, that can be found at any time. Syamasundara: Those are species? Prabhupada: They are not species, according to their... Syamasundara: They are types of men. Prabhupada: Yes. We said varieties. Syamasundara: Then what is the different species of man, separate from me; for instance, what is another species that is different than I am? Prabhupada: I do not know exactly the species, but when we, (break) ...means jati, manusya jati. Syamasundara: I mean what is an example of different species of man. What are they, for example, several species of men? Prabhupada: I say that species, this word is not applicable in that sense. In that sense, according to the scientists' species. But when we say species, class you can say. Classes. Syamasundara: Classes. But what, give me an example. Prabhupada: Again, just like we are a class--Hare Krsna class. Our mentality is different from others. Syamasundara: Oh. Prabhupada: Therefore we are a class. Syamasundara: So tribes, more like tribal distinctions? Prabhupada: We are not exactly tribal. Culture, by culture. Syamasundara: By interest and culture. I see. Prabhupada: Differentiation of culture. Syamasundara: Those are species. Prabhupada: Those who are Aryan, non-Aryan; just like I say, they are all human beings, but why you say one Aryan and another non-Aryan? It is difference of culture, that's all. Syamasundara: Say, for example, there is Caucasian race, the Negro race, different races like that. If they are all living in the same... Say they all join Krsna consciousness movement, then they are all the same... Prabhupada: But Krsna consciousness movement is not on the basic principle of this body. It is basically on the soul; therefore you will find everyone same. Syamasundara: But otherwise it goes... Prabhupada: Because it is culture. When one comes to the spiritual platform, there is no question. Even animal you can accept. Just like we worship (indistinct), Hanuman. He's animal, but because he's devotee of Lord Ramacandra, we worship. But that doesn't mean we are worshiping animals. Syamasundara: You mean like Bengalis are a different species than Gujaratis? Something like that? Prabhupada: Why do you mix what we have already explained? Our jati means of the same culture. He may be Gujarati, he may be Bengali, he may be American. Syamasundara: So, for instance, carpenters are different than field workers--like that, different interests? Prabhupada: Why different interest? The interest is to earn money. So you may earn money in some way, I may earn money in some way, he may earn money in some way. Bali-mardana: So is the primary factor of the variation is how much advanced they are in Krsna consciousness, how least advanced they are in Krsna consciousness? Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Syamasundara: So there are only two species. Bali-mardana: The demons and the devas. Prabhupada: This consciousness is coming through so many species, animals, then they're trees, they have no consciousness, but the soul is there. Syamasundara: I'm still trying to understand what you mean by the species of human life. It's not clear to me. I don't understand what you mean by the different species of human life. Prabhupada: By culture. Syamasundara: By culture. Prabhupada: Yes. One class of human being... Syamasundara: But everyone is looking for money. You said the field worker is not the same as, or is the same as the carpenter, because they're both looking for money. Prabhupada: Yes. But one who knows how to earn money very easily, and one may not know. That is culture. That is culture. One man is sitting in one place earning daily one lakhs of rupees. Syamasundara: So big industrialists and field workers are two different species of men. Prabhupada: Not species, class. Jati. Syamasundara: Jati. So when you say 400,000 species of human life... Prabhupada: Difference of culture. Syamasundara: It's different from what we think of as species. Prabhupada: Culture. Bali-mardana: So the angle of vision is not from the bodily, it's from the closeness of the soul to Krsna consciousness, as far as they're able... Prabhupada: Unless they accept soul and consciousness, there cannot be question of culture. Syamasundara: But when the scientists say "species," they mean different types of bodies. Prabhupada: Yes. We say 400,000 different forms of bodies, so human body, just like Negroes, they are also human beings, and you are also human beings. So this scientists will say they are all one species, human being. But we say that Negro culture and the Aryan culture is different. Syamasundara: They also say their bodies are different, Negroid bodies or Caucasian bodies, or Oriental bodies... Prabhupada: Then you can say species. Species and the different bodies. Syamasundara: Species means different bodies. Prabhupada: Yes. Bali-mardana: So the consciousness, the body, or my form, it's pertaining to my consciousness, the developer of my consciousness. Prabhupada: Yes. You and your brother may be of the same type of body; there may not be a different, same type of consciousness. Syamasundara: But you just said, for instance, the industrialist and farmers are two different species of men, but there can be a Negro industrialist... Prabhupada: I already said that. Why don't you listen? Species, definition of the scientists is different from ours. We say class. Syamasundara: I'm trying to understand, because you said class but then you also said bodies. Negro bodies are different from white Caucasian bodies. Prabhupada: Many difference of bodies. But that does not...; therefore our classification on the basis of soul. The soul is equal in spite of different types of body. The soul is one. There is no change of the soul. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said that he does not see the species or the class or definition. He sees one: panditah sama-darsinah. Pandita, one who sees to the (indistinct), the soul, he does not find any difference between these species. This is our point. Bali-mardana: So Darwin and other similar material scientists, they have no information of the soul, yet they're... Prabhupada: Again, they're missing the whole point. Bali-mardana: But they're trying to find out information for themselves, and for others around them, but not knowing who they are, they're drawing on a material platform which is infinite, or at least infinite as far as their capacity to understand. But not only will they never be able to understand the material, the construction of the material arrangement, at ultimate issue it has no pertinence, anyway. It doesn't mean anything. Syamasundara: No. It does mean something if you accept that forms are evolving from simple to complex. That means that we can expect in the future that mankind will even be of a more superior nature than they are now. Prabhupada: One form is superior than the other form. Do as you said. Bali-mardana: That possibility is also there. We know that by performance of certain types of sacrifices you can become (indistinct) and go to the demigod planet... Prabhupada: That difference is that one apartment is better than the other apartment. Material. Syamasundara: They would say that from the lowest apartments we are evolving to the better apartments. Prabhupada: Yes. So according to your position, if you... There are different apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartment. But as you are fit to pay the rent or price, then you are allowed to enter in the apartment. The apartments are already there--first-class, second-class, third-class. They are not evolving. Syamasundara: They say all living things on this earth are evolving in that way, from lower to higher. In the history of the earth... Prabhupada: That also may be accepted, because just like after certain period, people are constructing a certain type of apartment, next day they construct a different type of apartment. That can be accepted. But the apartment is not evolving; the evolution is taking, on the apartment, on the desire of something else. Syamasundara: On the desire of something else. So just like... Prabhupada: That they do not know. Syamasundara: Oh, I see. Just like... Prabhupada: They say simply the apartment is changing. Syamasundara: Just like if it suddenly got cold, the spirit soul would desire to be warm so he would evolve a body with hair. Prabhupada: Yes. Right. That we say. That is our..., according to the mentality at the time of death you get another apartment. But the apartment is already there. 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