Guest guest Posted June 23, 2000 Report Share Posted June 23, 2000 Thankz Gopi. Missed you at the Prabhupada FEstival. Maybe back in LA in Sept. Hope all is well in Laguna. Thanz for the clarification. Raghu Thankz<A HREF="vediculture ">_______________________________ _ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 12 > "Gopi" <gopi > <Anudasa, <vy > RE: [VY] Re: VY digest, Vol 1 #125 - 12 msgs > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:41:54 -0700 > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Raghu, > KA wrote that. not Adam. > > <take care, Adam> That part was quoted by KA in his reply to Adam's letter. > > take care, > Gopi > > Raghu wrote: > > > > > > I find this some what moving. It means a lot to me that this > > weighs on you Adam. I don't think you have to be "against (your) guru" if > we simply look at things a little more closely. I was present for most of > the > > incidents that would be under review and controvercial. I may be able to > help clearify things. > > > > > In a message dated 6/20/00 6:00:32 PM Hawaiian Standard Time, > > vy-admin writes: > > > > > But it kind of sucks that I am in a position where it appears that I > am against my guru. This is probably the hardest thing that I have to do. > I am sure that some people on this conference now hate me. Thats Ok-i'll be > the whipping boy. At this point I feel that I am doing the right thing. > > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 13 > "Balarama V" <ultradevoted > vy > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:46:20 GMT > [VY] (no subject) > > > >Krsna has a plan and we > >will see how it is manifest. > >For those of you who bore with me through all this,I > >apologize for the length. It wasn't intended to be this > >long. Take care. I remain. Ananta Vrndavan > > > > > Thank you, I appreciated this. > Especially the bit about more structure in helping devotees (in schooling > and spiritual development). Things are changing. > > BV > ______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 14 > "Balarama V" <ultradevoted > vy > Re: [VY] (no subject) > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:15:25 GMT > > > > > speaker was saying that there are no victims. It was > > > the > > gurukuli's karma. > > > >= > >not that i don't believe that these are our karmic > >reactions to some degree,i do...... but to be told by > >the person who inflicted that pain, i certainly don't > >accept that..... > > > Dear Anasuya, > I am very sorry to hear about your relationship with your father. I > have spent some time with Prithu prabhu the past couple of days, and we > talked about this very subject. He said that altough this is true about our > > karmic reactions, the perpetrator should never say 'it is your karma', in > fact it isn't right for anyone but yourself to recognize that these > reactions are coming justfully. It is part of the process of humility. > I'd hate to see the karmic reactions for the molesters of young > children. > > your servant, > Balarama > > > > > >Can you believe it! He said that > > > they > > > should just chant Hare Krsna > ______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 15 > "Balarama V" <ultradevoted > vy > Re: [VY] where did we go wrong? > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:33:04 GMT > > > >Anyway, that's it for now. I need to get some work > >done here. > > > >Take care all, > >Sincerely, > >Yudhi > > > > > > Wow! You did more work in that email then I've done all week! > > BV > ______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 16 > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) > Manu <ekaseder > vy > [VY] Why ISKCON continues to go wrong > > Why ISKCON continues to go wrong > -------------------------------- > > In my opinion, why we got from "there to here" is > because of an extension of abdication of > responsiblitiy in a large group. With no one person in > charge of the vision or reputation of ISKCON, every > one of the 32 GBC is thinking that the other is making > sure this or that problem is solved. When horrenduous > stories of child abuse are brought up at the > international GBC meetings, you and me (leaders xyz) > are sure to think (hope, pray) that Dhira Govinda will > solve these problems and as soon as the meetings are > over (out of sight, out of mind) we only see and worry > about our own leaking faucets in our own temples. > > A couple of years ago at the Mayapur GBC meetings a > few senior GBC were lamenting that the "real leaders" > who had charisma to be leaders have left... "the > generals have blooped... and left the rank to take > over." something to that effect. > > When Anuttama urged the GBC to pledge a million > dollars over the course of four years to help the > victims of child abuse, the GBC brainstormed on how to > come up with such amounts, and evenutally voted that > the only business that runs a profit in ISKCON, the > BBT, should pay for it. Six months later, at the > meeting of BBT Trustees however, when they heard how > much money they had been volunteered to pay by the > GBC, they said forget it.. they couldn't do that. > Prabhupada said... the money should only be used to > print more books, and to build temples such as Mayapur > and Vrindavan. And besides, Prabhupada said that the > BBT is a separate entity and not under the > jurisdiction of the GBC. > > A little glimpse of the bureaucratic mess, group > thinking, group abdication of responsibility (someone > else will surely do it, I'm too busy). > > When the GBC votes someone to be the chairman for the > year, it is the most undesired post in all of ISKCON. > It is quite a scenario that unfolds as each member > comes up with excuses of why they can't be a > chairperson...they did it already two years ago... > they don't have the resources to fly all over the > world, they don't have clout with other GBC, so many > excuses. So, surprise surprise, when someone is > finally voted chairperson, that chairperson has little > motivation to be the one to "solve all of ISKCON's > problems" though they may try their best to mediate > and keep up with their emails. > > to be continued.... > > love, Manu > > > > > Send instant messages with Messenger. > http://im./ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 17 > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:18:30 -0700 (PDT) > Manu <ekaseder > Re: [VY] My Thoughts > vy > > Every successful company needs a CEO. A person who > looks at all the issues, all the problems, and tries > to come up with a solution. A person who is up high > enough that he can tell the other people to shift > their priorities from one thing to another... to steer > the company in the right direction. > > ISKCON, unfortunately, has 32 captains all steering in > a different direction. We have no "captain of the > ship." The chairman of the board is not like the > "CEO" at least he/she doesn't act in that mode... they > see themselves as mediators who become the point > people for complaints and problems and feel like > they'll get shot down and trampled on no matter what > they do. If they side with the victims, they'll never > hear the end of it from Dhanurdhara's disciples. If > they side with the disciples, well, KA can tell you > about why he joined the suit. > > And when it comes to taking responsibility for > problems that didn't happen on "your watch"... there's > a lot of passing the buck. When we don't have the > resouces to fix a problem, when there is no CEO who > can pool the resources as necessary to plug the leaks, > its no wonder things are the way they are. > > Some management classes are in order. > > Paying the CEO to do his job fulltime so he/she > doesn't have to be mediating global issues while > simultaneously running their own temple, making money > selling paintings on the side, etc. all these things > would probably help. > > Congrats if you read this far. Take all of the above > with a grain of salt. I'm just blowing off steam. > > Manu > > > > > Send instant messages with Messenger. > http://im./ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 18 > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:38:59 -0700 (PDT) > Gabriel Deadwyler <gabedead > Re: [VY] Re: lawsuit and plaintiffs > vy > > Hi KA, > > I for one don't hate you, and I'm sorry you feel you > need to hide out in Alachua. I'm not onboard with the > lawsuit, but considering what everybody's been > through, I can't blame anyone for going for it. I do > have some disagreements, though, with some of your > points. > > > No this suit is to clean up ISKCON. All the leaders > > that are into ISKCON > > for the money will leave when it is gone, and the > > true devotees will shine > > Hmmmm. Which leaders are in it for the money? Every > defendant listed, even Giriraj Swami for example, who > has (had?), I'm told, a substantial inheritance? And > exactly why or how they're going to leave also seems > pretty vague, unless you're saying that when ISKCON > has no money because it's bankrupt there'll be no > corrupt leaders -- but there won't be much of an > ISKCON either. > > To me this sounds a lot like things I've seen on other > internet forums, some vague idea that a gurukuli > lawsuit will force the GBC to resign and then > everything will be okay. And be replaced by whom? I'll > wager good money it would be more wolves in sheep's > clothing. > > As for Bhagavan and Harikesa and all those who have > looted ISKCON or wasted it's money, of course it all > sucks, and they should be dragged into court and > charged with embezzlement, but how this is directly > relevant to abuses in gurukula, correcting that, > compensating victims, and finding some kind of peace > for ourselves, I don't know. Former members of the GBC > have done all kinds of criminal and kooky stuff, maybe > even present members too for all I know, so sue 'em > for that, but not in gurukuli's names just because we > make better victims. > > > How can we rob our inheritence? Srila Prabhupada > > clearly wanted the second > > generation to take the reigns of the movement. I > > think that now this will > > happen. I also think that we can use it better than > > our current leaders. > > ISKCON's not our inheritance just because we were born > to devotee parents. There is still the matter of > following the regulative principles, chanting 16 > rounds, reading Prabhupada's books, performing > devotional service under the instruction of a > spiritual master and so on, ie. being a devotee that > is worthy of being a leader for other devotees. ISKCON > is about bhakti-yoga, devotional service, and it's > your inheritance only as much as you are willing and > able to serve ISKCON, isn't that the philosophy? Now I > know there's been problems because these devotional > things have been emphasized while basic competence as > a manager and so on are sometimes overlooked, but > unless we are sincere followers what right do we have > to claim the reigns of the movement? In my case, I > don't feel robbed of my inheritance, rather I feel > unqualified and unwilling to take on its burden. > (Unfortunately, last time I checked it was still 4 > regs and 16 rounds, not 2 regs and no rounds. > > > I don't want danudahara to suffer- I want him to > > stop initiating. I have > > forgiven all the other teachers. In fact I hang out > > at Jagadish's to watch > > basketball games quite often. I have not forgiven > > our leaders > > This, for me, is the weirdest. You've forgiven and > hang out with Jagadish quite often, the one guy in > this whole sordid affair that could have at any time > -- any time, from the very beginning of gurukula to > whenever he ran off with his disciple -- stood up and > said wait a minute we're going wrong, this system is > abusive, in fact the one guy that had the most > responsibility to actually do that, who had the > evidence before his eyes, and had the leadership > position to be listened to, him you've forgiven. The > major guy who muffled any voices of complaint and > dismissed parent's concerns, who in fact personally > set the standards that allowed the abuse, him you've > forgiven, but Hrdayananda Maharaja, who we saw maybe > twice a year at the festivals, or ISKCON of Gita > Nagari where no one from gurukula days is even there > anymore, they're now in legal trouble. > > It seems you're angry with a leadership that hasn't > handled Dhanurdhara the way you'd like (I'll agree > with you on that one), that hasn't coughed up the > monies promised, in short hasn't dealt with the abuses > of gurukula in a satisfactory way, but you're quite > comfortable with a least one person who caused the > abuses in the first place. You're angry with the > perhaps incompetent doctors who have failed to cure > you, yet have reconciled with the quack who injured > you in the first place. > > I guess for me I'm comfortable with people who say > ISKCON did wrong, but I'm going to continue my faith > and service in ISKCON and work to maintain high > standards and to rectify past problem to the best of > my ability. I'm also comfortable with my peers who've > decided that ISKCON is just another cult, Prabhupada > just another charismatic leader who even with the best > of intentions started a dysfunctional organization > that severely abused us, so let's sue the pants off > this crazy weird organization and put 'em out of > business. Atleast those viewpoints are consistent. But > all this "for ISKCON's own good" stuff just doesn't > make sense to me. > > Finally, as far as Prabhupada's reputation and so on, > I don't see how the lawyer's are going to make their > case to a jury without painting the entire > organization as a cult, a scam that brainwashed > parents into giving up their responsibilities to their > children. That's the argument in the complaint, and > it's the very basis of their arguments why legal > entities that had nothing to do with the incidents > described should be held financially liable, why the > statutes of limitation do not apply, and so on. > > Anyway, those are my thoughts, and I hope I haven't > offended you. But you know my Dad's one of the > defendants, on the other hand I could very well be a > plaintiff if I wanted, so this is all a little close > to the heart and I like these opportunities to think > through these things. > > Take care, > Yours truly, > Yudhi > > > > Send instant messages with Messenger. > http://im./ > > > > > --__--__-- > > _____________ > VY [use VY-request for admin requests] > http://list.gurukuli.com/mailman/listinfo/vy > > End of VY Digest > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <.vy-admin > Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by > air-zc04.mail.aol.com (v74.17) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:00:41 -0400 > Received: from gw.rupa.com (cx838204-a.alsv1.occa.home.com [24.16.83.66]) > by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v75.16) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:00:11 -0400 > Received: from gw.rupa.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by gw.rupa.com (Postfix) with ESMTP > id C05721D1E2; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:00:07 -0700 (PDT) > vy-admin > VY digest, Vol 1 #126 - 18 msgs > vy > X-mailer: Mailman v1.1 > Mime-version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain > vy > Sender: vy-admin > Errors-vy-admin > X-Mailman-Version: 1.1 > Precedence: bulk > List-Id: Vaisnava Youth Conference <.vy.list.gurukuli.com> > X-BeenThere: vy > Message-Id: <20000621190007.C05721D1E2 > Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:00:07 -0700 (PDT) > > </A> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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