Guest guest Posted September 5, 2000 Report Share Posted September 5, 2000 where do we find Nirmal Chandras web site ??? Satyahit das www.theatrerama.com -is new web site comming up soon.. - <vediculture > <vediculture > Tuesday, September 05, 2000 12:57 AM [world-vedic] Digest Number 78 > > This is an information resource and discussion group for people interested in the World's Ancient Vedic Culture, with a focus on its historical, archeological and scientific aspects. Also topics about India, Hinduism, God, and other aspects of World Culture are welcome. > > ------ > > There are 10 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term PART 3 REPLY > "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r > 2. Arya denoted Caste/Ethnic Significations > "Anthanarik" <anthanaric > 3. RE: Abuse Lawsuit > "Radha-Govinda Mandir" <govinda > 4. THOTH--Seminar Update (URGENT)] > "vrin parker" <vedic108 > 5. Discovery Channel discovers Kataragama > "vrin parker" <vedic108 > 6. Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term > "deen chandora" <deenbc > 7. Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term --PART 2 REPLY > "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r > 8. Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term PART 1 REPLY > "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r > 9. ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY > Anudasa > 10. (unknown) > indrani rampersad <i_rampersad > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 1 > Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:30:24 +0100 > "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r > Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term PART 3 REPLY > > Anthanarik replied: > "vediculture , "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r@v...> wrote: > Mr George and Jans concocted imaginations ---bye bye. > You are just displaying your ignorance and possible Hindu chauvinism. > BTW, they are the foremost Indo-European religous scholars. Your > sources are post Vedic. I would recommend Puhvel's Comparaive > Mythology. A great resource for a Vedic Group (besides the Vedas of > course)." > > You write your sources are POST vedic? > > First of all TRY-------and understand VEDAS. Veda means KNOWLEDGE > So if you can trace out the history of knowledge, then you can trace out > what is the date of Veda. And then you say POST? vedic--this is CRAZY! Which > is the date when knowledge began. Can you trace out? > > > 730830mw.lon Conversations > Prabhupada: Veda means not religion, Veda means knowledge. So if you can > trace out the history of knowledge, then you can trace out what is the date > of Veda. Can you trace out? When...? Which is the date when knowledge began. > Can you trace out? > David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could. > Prabhupada: Eh? > David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could. > Prabhupada: So how you can trace out the history of Vedas? Vedas means > knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So first of all find out from which date > knowledge began. Then you find out the date of the Vedas. > > > Srimad Bhagavatam 4.2.31 T Daksa Curses Lord Siva > Translation by HIS DIVINE GRACE AC BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA > > esa eva hi lokanam > sivah panthah sanatanah > yam purve canusantasthur > yat-pramanam janardanah > > SYNONYMS > > esah--the Vedas; eva--certainly; hi--for; lokanam--of all people; > sivah--auspicious; panthah--path; sanatanah--eternal; yam--which (Vedic > path); purve--in the past; ca--and; anusantasthuh--was rigidly followed; > yat--in which; pramanam--the evidence; janardanah--Janardana. > > TRANSLATION > The Vedas give the eternal regulative principles for auspicious > advancement in human civilization which have been rigidly followed in the > past. The strong evidence of this principle is the Supreme Personality of > Godhead, who is called Janardana, the well-wisher of all living entities. > > PURPORT > In the Bhagavad-gita the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, has > claimed that He is the father of all living entities, regardless of form. > There are 8,400,000 different species of life forms, and Lord Krsna claims > that He is the father of all. Because the living entities are parts and > parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are all sons of the > Lord, and for their benefit, because they are hovering under the impression > that they can lord it over material nature, the Vedas are given to them for > their guidance. Therefore the Vedas are called apauruseya, for they are not > written by any man or demigod, including the first living creature, Brahma. > Brahma is not the creator or author of the Vedas. He is also one of the > living beings in this material world; therefore he does not have the power > to write or speak the Vedas independently. Every living entity within this > material world is subject to four deficiencies: he commits mistakes, he > accepts one thing for another, he cheats, and he has imperfect senses. The > Vedas, however, are not written by any living creature within this material > world. Therefore they are said to be apauruseya. No one can trace out the > history of the Vedas. Of course, modern human civilization has no > chronological history of the world or the universe, and it cannot present > actual historical facts older than three thousand years. But no one has > traced out when the Vedas were written, because they were never written by > any living being within this material world. All other systems of knowledge > are defective because they have been written or spoken by men or demigods > who are products of this material creation, but Bhagavad-gita is apauruseya, > for it was not spoken by any human being or any demigod of this material > creation; it was spoken by Lord Krsna, who is beyond the material creation. > That is accepted by such stalwart scholars as Sankaracarya, not to speak of > other acaryas such as Ramanujacarya and Madhvacarya. Sankaracarya has > accepted that Narayana and Krsna are transcendental, and in Bhagavad-gita > also Lord Krsna has established, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam > pravartate: "I am the origin of everything; everything emanates from Me." > This material creation, including Brahma and Siva and all the demigods, has > been created by Him, for everything has emanated from Him. He also says that > the purpose of all the Vedas is to understand Him (vedais ca sarvair aham > eva vedyah). He is the original veda-vit, or knower of the Vedas, and > vedanta-krt, or compiler of Vedanta. Brahma is not the compiler of the > Vedas. > In the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam it is established, tene brahma hrda: > the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, instructed Brahma in > the Vedic knowledge through his heart. Therefore the evidence that Vedic > knowledge is free from the defects of mistakes, illusions, cheating and > imperfection is that it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, > Janardana, and has thus been followed from time immemorial, beginning from > Brahma. The Vedic religion or the principles of the Vedas have been followed > by the highly cultured population of India since time immemorial; no one can > trace out the history of Vedic religion. Therefore it is sanatana, and any > blasphemy against the Vedas is calculated to be atheism. The Vedas are > described as setu, which means "a bridge." If one wants to attain his > spiritual existence, one has to cross an ocean of nescience. The Vedas are > the bridge by which to cross such a great ocean. > The Vedas describe how to divide the human race into four divisions > according to quality and working capacity. This is a very scientific system, > and it is also sanatana, for no one can trace out its history and it has no > dissolution. No one can stop the system of varna and asrama, or the castes > and divisions. For example, whether or not one accepts the name brahmana, > there is a class in society which is known as the intelligent class and > which is interested in spiritual understanding and philosophy. Similarly, > there is a class of men who are interested in administration and in ruling > others. In the Vedic system these martially spirited men are called > ksatriyas. Similarly, everywhere there is a class of men who are interested > in economic development, business, industry and money-making; they are > called vaisyas. And there is another class who are neither intelligent nor > martially spirited nor endowed with the capacity for economic development > but who simply can serve others. They are called sudras, or the laborer > class. This system is sanatana--it comes from time immemorial, and it will > continue in the same way. There is no power in the world which can stop it. > Therefore, since this sanatana-dharma system is eternal, one can elevate > himself to the highest standard of spiritual life by following the Vedic > principles. > It is stated that formerly the sages followed this system; therefore to > follow the Vedic system is to follow the standard etiquette of society. But > the followers of Lord Siva, who are drunkards, who are addicted to > intoxicants and sex life, who do not bathe and who smoke ganja, are against > all human etiquette. The conclusion is that persons who rebel against the > Vedic principles are themselves the evidence that the Vedas are > authoritative, because by not following the Vedic principles they become > like animals. Such animalistic persons are themselves evidence of the > supremacy of the Vedic regulations. > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 2 > Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:25:33 -0600 > "Anthanarik" <anthanaric > Arya denoted Caste/Ethnic Significations > > > Someone posted that the word Arya is not Indo-European which of course is incorrect. > The social structure that was later to become rigid and subspecialized int the caste system already existed in main outline during the Vedic perio, comprising the classes of brahmana, ksatriya, (or rajanya), vaisya, and sudra. The first three were deemed arya, whereas the sudras sere an ary non=Aryan, reerring to the darker skined indigenous elements of the population (the Sanskrit term for cste, varna, means color). Arya as a term for the Indo-European in group goes back to Indo-Iranian (Arayanam>Iran) and Proto-Indo-European, for it reoccurs in Celtic in the Indo-European Far West (Old Irish aire 'free, noble') and occurs as a comon noun in Hittite (ara 'social equal, peer'). Vedic society proper was thus tripartite, jcomposed of formulators, word manipulators, idea men, intellectuals (brahman originally meant roughly 'effective verbal construct, formula, prayer'), power types, warriors, royal entourage (ksatram 'rule, dominion, raj 'king'), an villagers, economic classes, tht is , herders, cultivators, artisan (vis- tribal village, vesa household=Greek oi-kos). (Puhvel, Jan, Comparative Mythology, p. 45). > For THOSE who do read the Vedas and the Laws of Manu, Arya at the very least denotes a group, an ethnic group. BTW, for those in US, the entire Vedas are not readily available. I when to the U. and copied them in full. For those that study Indo-European religions see the many connections and realize that Greek, Roman, Hittite, Germanic, and Hindu all are derived from a common proto-IE source. > > > Anthanarik > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 3 > Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:51:57 -0500 > "Radha-Govinda Mandir" <govinda > RE: Abuse Lawsuit > > > > De: Brin Davan <Vaidika1008 > Para: vediculture <vediculture > > Fecha: Jueves 31 de Agosto de 2000 8:47 PM > Asunto: [world-vedic] Abuse Lawsuit > > > >Jay all glories to you me dear Vrindavan das. Without doubts, you are > bonefine Gurukuli ans Prabhupada siksya. > Your servant Hare Krsna Das. > >With the current abuse lawsuit against Iskcon, it is important to > >note that child abuse is and has been a problem long before Iskcon > >founded its first Gurukula. Abuse is a disease that has no regard for > >caste, color, creed, social status or nationality. > > > >As the article shows, it is not just the Church being held > >responsible for the abuse of Native American children, but also the > >Canadian Govt. (The U.S. govt just hasn't owned up to it yet.) > > > >While holding the perpertraters of abuse accountable, we must not > >lose focus on the truth. Srila Prabhupada's movement is the same > >movement innaugarated 500 years ago by Sri Sri Gaura Nitai. This > >movement is continuing to grow and continues to inspire Love of God > >in the hearts of millions. > >Haribol! > > > > > > > > > >This is an information resource and discussion group for people interested > in the World's Ancient Vedic Culture, with a focus on its historical, > archeological and scientific aspects. Also topics about India, Hinduism, > God, and other aspects of World Culture are welcome. > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 4 > Mon, 04 Sep 2000 10:37:42 GMT > "vrin parker" <vedic108 > THOTH--Seminar Update (URGENT)] > > > > > >MeLeana Ipsdor <meleana > >meleana > >Thu, 31 Aug 2000 18:49:11 -0700 > > > >Thought you might want to see the lineup for this conference. Looks > >interesting. MeLeana > > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 5 > Mon, 04 Sep 2000 10:39:16 GMT > "vrin parker" <vedic108 > Discovery Channel discovers Kataragama > > > > > >Ronald Landry <webhawks > >webhawks > >vrin parker <vedic108 > >Discovery Channel discovers Kataragama > >Sun, 03 Sep 2000 05:03:19 -0400 > > > >http://hinduism.about.com/religion/hinduism/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=htt p://xlweb.com/heritage/skanda/index.htm > > > >Discovery Channel discovers Kataragama > > > > (Kataragama: 12 July 2000) > > > > The Discovery Channel, a US-based television documentary network, has > >dispatched one of its television teams to Sri Lanka from 6-19 July 2000 > >to produce a documentary about the Kataragama Pada Yatra and Esala > >festival. The finished 18-minute segment will be telecast worldwide in > >late October as part of a Discovery Channel special documentary. > > > > Director Ms Heidi Ewing of Gabriel Films (USA) is presently in > >Kataragama with producer-cameraman Marcos Franzoni of Italy along with > >Sri Lankan support from the Kataragama Devotees Trust (KDT) and Warner > >Innovations. The film unit just returned from Pottuvil, Panama and > >Okanda where it videotaped scenes of foot pilgrimage, jungle wildlife, > >and interviews with pilgrims. > > > > In May director Ms Ewing accidentally discovered the new Internet > >website of Kataragama (www.kataragama.org). Her original intention was > >to make a documentary about kavadi rituals at Palani in South India. But > >one visit to the extensive KDT website was enough to convince her that > >the multi-religious Kataragama Esala festival would provide more > >on-screen variety and colour. > > > > According to Ms Ewing, American television viewers are completely > >unfamiliar with Kataragama or, for that matter, Sri Lanka at all. The > >present documentary, masterly crafted with technical input from Sri > >Lankan director and Kataragama devotee Manik Sandrasagra, will give > >worldwide exposure to Kataragama and place it overnight on the map of > >adventurous spiritual seekers everywhere. > > > > Ms Ewing says that she would like to undertake a series of > >co-productions in collaboration with the Kataragama Devotees Trust and > >the Cultural Survival Trust of Sri Lanka in the near future but declined > >to give details. "It will be a big surprise for Sri Lankan and American > >television viewers alike, so please stay tuned," she says. > > > > "The world deserves to learn about Kataragama as its traditional > >custodians understand it," says Sandrasagra. "Only when the rest of the > >world raves about Kataragama will the average Sri Lankan once again > >respect our cultural heritage the way older generations once did." > > > > > > Note: Visit www.kataragama.org regularly or to Murugan Bhakti > >for latest details on these and other forthcoming documentaries about > >Kataragama. > > > > Kataragama.org home page > > > > More about Kataragama Devotees Trust activities. > > > > > > > > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 6 > Mon, 04 Sep 2000 09:40:05 EDT > "deen chandora" <deenbc > Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term > > > Namaste, > COMMOMENTS ON SHRI MAHESH RAJA'S STATEMENTS; > ACCORDIND TO YOU BHAGWAT GITA IS THE MOST AUTHENTIC BOOK, THIS IS AN > EXCELLENT THOUGHT. IF YOU HAVE READ IT, AND CONTEMPLATED OVER IT DEEPLY > AND THOUGHT OVER, BHAGWAT GITA KEEPS REFFERING VEDAS. THUS BASIS OF IT'S > BASICS IS VEDAS. BHAGAT GITA NARRETS THE ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS OF VEDA IN A > SIMPLE SANSKRIT FORMAT, SO THAT ANY COMMON PERSON WITH A ZEAL TO UNDERSTAND > CAN EASYLY LEARN. > SINCERELY, > DEEN B.CHANDORA, MD > SEPT.3, 2000 > > >"deen chandora" <deenbc > >vediculture > >vediculture > >Re: [world-vedic] Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term > >Fri, 01 Sep 2000 10:45:54 EDT > > > >Hello Mahesh Raja, > > >That's fine if you don't accept the authority of the Vedas. > > > >I THINK ONE MUST OPEN THEIR CLOSE MINDS AND STUDY THE VEDAS TO REALIZE AND > >UNDERSTAND BEFORE ONE MAKES ANY REJECTION. ARYA WORD IS NOT OF WESTERN > >ORIGION, THEREFORE WESTRN CANNOT MAKE THE WRITE INTERPRETATION, IT IS LIKE > >MAKING KHICHADI WITHOUT PROPER PERSPECTIVES. ONE SHOULD READ RAMAYAN OF > >VALMIKI WHICH WAS WRITTEN EVEN BEFORE THSE WESTRN SCHOLARS WERE BORN. > >VALMIKI AND MAHABHART GIVES DEFINITION OF ARYA. THE DISTORTION BY WESTRN > >SCHOLARS WAS INTENTIONQLLY INTRODUCED . THE HISTORY OF INDIA IS ALIVILG > >TESTEMONY. PLEASE READ AND LEARN DO NOT REMAIN BEHIND AND LOST IN > >MISPERCEPTIONS. > >I HAVE DEALT IN DETAIL IN MY BOOK HINDU CENTUM,PUBLISHED THIS YEAR. > >SINCERELY, > >DEEN B.CHANDORA. > > > >SEPT.1,2000 > > > > >"Anthanarik" <anthanaric > > >vediculture > > ><vediculture > > > >Re: [world-vedic] Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term > > >Wed, 30 Aug 2000 08:39:29 -0600 > > > > > > > > > > > >Hello Mahesh Raja, > > >That's fine if you don't accept the authority of the Vedas. This is the > > >Vedic Culture E-group though. > > > > > >Anthanarik > > > - > > > Mahesh Raja > > > vediculture ; Anthanarik > > > Tuesday, August 29, 2000 2:04 PM > > > Re: [world-vedic] Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My Groups | vediculture Main Page | Start a new group! > > > > > > > > > Anthanarik wrote: > > > "The correct view is that Arya was orginally a racial term (circa 1500 > > > BCE) is latter it was used in a non-racial context. > > > Sources abound (Jan Puhvel and Georges Dumezil are the most prominent > > > IE analyists). " > > > > > > > > > NO! We do NOT accept them as authority. Our authority is > > >Bhagavad-Gita, > > > Mahabharata and the acaryas. > > > If Mr Georges and Jan are most prominent according to *your > >particular > > > standards* thats --nothing to do with us. > > > We have not even heard of them---and do not care---because we have > > >authentic > > > authorities which the whole wide world has > > > heard of . If you want to compare prominence just ask around: > > >Mahabharata, > > > Bhagavad-gita and Srila Prabhupada the foremost acarya of the bonafide > > >VEDIC > > > parampara. > > > > > > Now lets discuss: > > > Bhagavad-Gita was prominent even well before Mr George and Jans > > >*birth*. > > > Notice the term used anarya--persons who do not know the value of > >life. > > > Anarya is opposite of Aryans. Here is clearly talking about not the > > > *race*but of qualities that make an Aryan---which iis what as Srila > > > Prabhupada says:The word Aryan is applicable to persons who know the > > >value > > > of life and have a civilization based on spiritual realization. > >Persons > > >who > > > are led by the material conception of life do not know that the aim of > > >life > > > is realization of the Absolute Truth, Visnu, or Bhagavan, and they are > > > captivated by the external features of the material world, and > >therefore > > > they do not know what liberation is. Persons who have no knowledge of > > > liberation from material bondage are called non-Aryans. > > > > > > > > > Bhagavad-Gita AS IT IS > > > Translation by HIS DIVINE GRACE A C BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA > > > 2.2 T Contents of the Gita Summarized > > > sri-bhagavan uvaca > > > kutas tva kasmalam idam > > > visame samupasthitam > > > anarya-justam asvargyam > > > akirti-karam arjuna > > > SYNONYMS > > > sri-bhagavan uvaca--the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; > > > kutah--wherefrom; tva--unto you; kasmalam--dirtiness; idam--this > > > lamentation; visame--in this hour of crisis; samupasthitam--arrived; > > > anarya--persons who do not know the value of life; justam--practiced > >by; > > > asvargyam--that which does not lead to higher planets; akirti--infamy; > > > karam--the cause of; arjuna--O Arjuna. > > > TRANSLATION > > > The Supreme Person [bhagavan] said: My dear Arjuna, how have these > > > impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who > >knows > > >the > > > progressive values of life. They do not lead to higher planets, but to > > > infamy. > > > PURPORT > > > Krsna and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are identical. > >Therefore > > > Lord Krsna is referred to as "Bhagavan" throughout the Gita. Bhagavan > >is > > >the > > > ultimate in the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is realized in three > > >phases > > > of understanding, namely Brahman or the impersonal all-pervasive > >spirit; > > > Paramatma, or the localized aspect of the Supreme within the heart of > > >all > > > living entities; and Bhagavan, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, > > >Lord > > > Krsna. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam this conception of the Absolute Truth > >is > > > explained thus: > > > vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam > > > brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate > > > "The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by > > >the > > > knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such > >phases > > >of > > > the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan." > > > (Bhag. 1.2.11) These three divine aspects can be explained by the > > >example of > > > the sun, which also has three different aspects, namely the sunshine, > > >the > > > sun's surface and the sun planet itself. One who studies the sunshine > > >only > > > is the preliminary student. One who understands the sun's surface is > > >further > > > advanced. And one who can enter into the sun planet is the highest. > > >Ordinary > > > students who are satisfied by simply understanding the sunshine--its > > > universal pervasiveness and the glaring effulgence of its impersonal > > > nature--may be compared to those who can realize only the Brahman > > >feature of > > > the Absolute Truth. The student who has advanced still further can > >know > > >the > > > sun disc, which is compared to knowledge of the Paramatma feature of > >the > > > Absolute Truth. And the student who can enter into the heart of the > >sun > > > planet is compared to those who realize the personal features of the > > >Supreme > > > Absolute Truth. Therefore, the bhaktas, or the transcendentalists who > > >have > > > realized the Bhagavan feature of the Absolute Truth, are the topmost > > > transcendentalists, although all students who are engaged in the study > > >of > > > the Absolute Truth are engaged in the same subject matter. The > >sunshine, > > >the > > > sun disc and the inner affairs of the sun planet cannot be separated > > >from > > > one another, and yet the students of the three different phases are > >not > > >in > > > the same category. > > > The Sanskrit word bhagavan is explained by the great authority, > > >Parasara > > > Muni, the father of Vyasadeva. The Supreme Personality who possesses > >all > > > riches, all strength, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all > > > renunciation is called Bhagavan. There are many persons who are very > > >rich, > > > very powerful, very beautiful, very famous, very learned, and very > >much > > > detached, but no one can claim that he possesses all riches, all > > >strength, > > > etc., entirely. Only Krsna can claim this because He is the Supreme > > > Personality of Godhead. No living entity, including Brahma, Lord Siva, > > >or > > > Narayana, can possess opulences as fully as Krsna. Therefore it is > > >concluded > > > in the Brahma-samhita by Lord Brahma himself that Lord Krsna is the > > >Supreme > > > Personality of Godhead. No one is equal to or above Him. He is the > > >primeval > > > Lord, or Bhagavan, known as Govinda, and He is the supreme cause of > >all > > > causes. > > > isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah > > > anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam > > > "There are many personalities possessing the qualities of Bhagavan, > > >but > > > Krsna is the supreme because none can excel Him. He is the Supreme > > >Person, > > > and His body is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. He is the > >primeval > > > Lord Govinda and the cause of all causes." (Brahma-samhita 5.1) > > > In the Bhagavatam also there is a list of many incarnations of the > > > Supreme Personality of Godhead, but Krsna is described as the original > > > Personality of Godhead, from whom many, many incarnations and > > >Personalities > > > of Godhead expand: > > > ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam > > > indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge > > > "All the lists of the incarnations of Godhead submitted herewith > >are > > > either plenary expansions or parts of the plenary expansions of the > > >Supreme > > > Godhead, but Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." > > >(Bhag. > > > 1.3.28) > > > Therefore, Krsna is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, > >the > > > Absolute Truth, the source of both the Supersoul and the impersonal > > >Brahman. > > > In the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Arjuna's > > > lamentation for his kinsmen is certainly unbecoming, and therefore > >Krsna > > > expressed His surprise with the word kutas, "wherefrom." Such unmanly > > > sentiments were never expected from a person belonging to the > >civilized > > > class of men known as Aryans. The word Aryan is applicable to persons > > >who > > > know the value of life and have a civilization based on spiritual > > > realization. Persons who are led by the material conception of life do > > >not > > > know that the aim of life is realization of the Absolute Truth, Visnu, > > >or > > > Bhagavan, and they are captivated by the external features of the > > >material > > > world, and therefore they do not know what liberation is. Persons who > > >have > > > no knowledge of liberation from material bondage are called > >non-Aryans. > > > Although Arjuna was a ksatriya, he was deviating from his prescribed > > >duties > > > by declining to fight. This act of cowardice is described as befitting > > >the > > > non-Aryans. Such deviation from duty does not help one in the progress > > >of > > > spiritual life, nor does it even give one the opportunity to become > > >famous > > > in this world. Lord Krsna did not approve of the so-called compassion > >of > > > Arjuna for his kinsmen. > > > > > > > > > ys mahesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is an information resource and discussion group for people > > >interested in the World's Ancient Vedic Culture, with a focus on its > > >historical, archeological and scientific aspects. Also topics about > >India, > > >Hinduism, God, and other aspects of World Culture are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 7 > Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:18:47 +0100 > "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r > Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term --PART 2 REPLY > > Anthanarik replied: > "vediculture , "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r@v...> wrote: > Mr George and Jans concocted imaginations ---bye bye. > You are just displaying your ignorance and possible Hindu chauvinism. > BTW, they are the foremost Indo-European religous scholars. Your > sources are post Vedic. I would recommend Puhvel's Comparaive > Mythology. A great resource for a Vedic Group (besides the Vedas of > course)." > > You are mistaken when you say Hindu chauvinism. > Read the following it will explain how we are NOT Hindus ---as you imagine. > > SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION 3 Discovering the Roots > By his Divine Grace AC BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA > > Krsna Consciousness: > Hindu Cult or Divine Culture? > > When attempting to place the Krsna consciousness movement within a > convenient historical-cultural context, many people identify the movement > with Hinduism. But this is misleading. Srila Prabhupada disavows connection > with the pantheism, polytheism, and caste consciousness that pervades modern > Hinduism. Although Krsna consciousness and modern Hinduism share a common > historical root--India's ancient Vedic culture--Hinduism has become, along > with the other "great religions," a sectarian establishment, whereas Krsna > consciousness is universal and transcends relative, sectarian designations. > > There is a misconception that the Krsna consciousness movement represents > the Hindu religion. In fact, however, Krsna consciousness is in no way a > faith or religion that seeks to defeat other faiths or religions. Rather, it > is an essential cultural movement for the entire human society and does not > consider any particular sectarian faith. This cultural movement is > especially meant to educate people in how they can love God. > Sometimes Indians both inside and outside of India think that we are > preaching the Hindu religion, but actually we are not. One will not find the > word Hindu in the Bhagavad-gita. Indeed, there is no such word as Hindu in > the entire Vedic literature. This word has been introduced by the Muslims > from provinces next to India, such as Afghanistan, Baluchistan, and Persia. > There is a river called Sindhu bordering the north western provinces of > India, and since the Muslims there could not pronounce Sindhu properly, they > instead called the river Hindu, and the inhabitants of this tract of land > they called Hindus. In India, according to the Vedic language, the Europeans > are called mlecchas or yavanas. Similarly, Hindu is a name given by the > Muslims. > India's actual culture is described in the Bhagavad-gita, where it is > stated that according to the different qualities or modes of nature there > are different types of men, who are generally classified into four social > orders and four spiritual orders. This system of social and spiritual > division is known as varnasrama-dharma. The four varnas, or social orders, > are brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya. and sudra. The four asramas, or spiritual > orders, are brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa. The varnasrama > system is described in the Vedic scriptures known as the Puranas. The goal > of this institution of Vedic culture is to educate every man for advancement > in knowledge of Krsna, or God. That is the entire Vedic program. > When Lord Caitanya talked with the great devotee Ramananda Raya, the Lord > asked him, "What is the basic principle of human life?" Ramananda Raya > answered that human civilization begins when varnasrama-dharma is accepted. > Before coming to the standard of varnasrama-dharma there is no question of > human civilization. Therefore, the Krsna consciousness movement is trying to > establish this right system of human civilization, which is known as Krsna > consciousness, or daiva-varnasrama--divine culture. > In India, the varnasrama system has now been taken in a perverted way, > and thus a man born in the family of a brahmana (the highest social order) > claims that he should be accepted as a brahmana. But this claim is not > accepted by the sastra (scripture). One's forefather may have been a > brahmana according to gotra, or the family hereditary order, but real > varnasrama-dharma is based on the factual quality one has attained, > regardless of birth or heredity. Therefore, we are not preaching the > present-day system of the Hindus, especially those who are under the > influence of Sankaracarya, for Sankaracarya taught that the Absolute Truth > is impersonal, and thus he indirectly denied the existence of God. > Sankaracarya's mission was special; he appeared to reestablish the Vedic > influence after the influence of Buddhism. Because Buddhism was patronized > by Emperor Asoka, twenty-six hundred years ago the Buddhist religion > practically pervaded all of India. According to the Vedic literature, Buddha > was an incarnation of Krsna who had a special power and who appeared for a > special purpose. His system of thought, or faith, was accepted widely, but > Buddha rejected the authority of the Vedas. While Buddhism was spreading, > the Vedic culture was stopped both in India and in other places. Therefore, > since Sankaracarya's only aim was to drive away Buddha's system of > philosophy, he introduced a system called Mayavada. > Strictly speaking, Mayavada philosophy is atheism, for it is a process in > which one imagines that there is God. This Mayavada system of philosophy has > been existing since time immemorial. The present Indian system of religion > or culture is based on the Mayavada philosophy of Sankaracarya, which is a > compromise with Buddhist philosophy. According to Mayavada philosophy there > actually is no God, or if God exists, He is impersonal and all-pervading and > can therefore be imagined in any form. This conclusion is not in accord with > the Vedic literature. That literature names many demigods, who are worshiped > for different purposes, but in every case the Supreme Lord, the Personality > of Godhead, Visnu, is accepted as the supreme controller. That is real Vedic > culture. > The philosophy of Krsna consciousness does not deny the existence of God > and the demigods, but Mayavada philosophy denies both; it maintains that > neither the demigods nor God exists. For the Mayavadis, ultimately all is > zero. They say that one may imagine any authority--whether Visnu, Durga, > Lord Siva, or the sun-god--because these are the demigods generally > worshiped in society. But the Mayavada philosophy does not in fact accept > the existence of any of them. The Mayavadis say that because one cannot > concentrate one's mind on the impersonal Brahman, one may imagine any of > these forms. This is a new system, called pancopasana. It was introduced by > Sankaracarya, but the Bhagavad-gita does not teach any such doctrines, and > therefore they are not authoritative. > The Bhagavad-gita accepts the existence of the demigods. The demigods are > described in the Vedas, and one cannot deny their existence, but they are > not to be understood or worshiped according to the way of Sankaracarya. The > worship of demigods is rejected in the Bhagavad-gita. The Gita (7.20) > clearly states: > > kamais tais tair hrta jnanah > prapadyante 'nya-devatah > tam tam niyamam asthaya > prakrtya niyatah svaya > > "Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto > demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship > according to their own natures." Furthermore, in the Bhagavad-gita (2.44), > Lord Krsna states: > > bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam > tayapahrta-cetasam > vyavasayatmika buddhih > samadhau na vidhiyate > > "In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and > material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute > determination for devotional service does not take place." Those who are > pursuing the various demigods have been described as hrta jnanah, which > means "those who have lost their sense." That is also further explained in > the Bhagavad-gita (7.23): > > antavat tu phalam tesam > tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam > devan deva-yajo yanti > mad-bhakta yanti mam api > > "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are > limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of > the demigods, but My devotees reach My supreme abode." The rewards given by > the demigods are temporary, because any material facility must act in > connection with the temporary body. Whatever material facilities one gets, > whether by modern scientific methods or by deriving benedictions from the > demigods, will be finished with the body. But spiritual advancement will > never be finished. > People should not think that we are preaching a sectarian religion. No. > We are simply preaching how to love God. > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 8 > Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:03:07 +0100 > "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r > Re: Re: Arya Is NOT a Racial Term PART 1 REPLY > > Anthanarik replied: > "vediculture , "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r@v...> wrote: > Mr George and Jans concocted imaginations ---bye bye. > You are just displaying your ignorance and possible Hindu chauvinism. > BTW, they are the foremost Indo-European religous scholars. Your > sources are post Vedic. I would recommend Puhvel's Comparaive > Mythology. A great resource for a Vedic Group (besides the Vedas of > course)." > > > So----you say---I am displaying ignorance? NO!--on the contrary it is YOU > who are ignorant. > > Here is the evidence, you say : "I would recommend Puhvel's Comparaive > Mythology. A great resource for a Vedic Group (besides the Vedas of > course)." > > First of all Mythology is imaginations. Myths by definition are invented > stories or imaginary persons or objects. So your suggestion proves you are > totally engrossed in your little world of imaginations this has NOTHING to > do with vedic culture. > > WE DO NOT ACCEPT MYTHS---OUR VEDIC CULTURE IS BASED ON FACTS. OUR VEDIC > CULTURE IS AND HAS BEEN GUIDED BY ACARYAS AND ACCEPTANCE OF BHAGAVAD-GITA, > MAHABHARATA, SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM, RAMAYANA. > > LECTURE BY HIS DIVINE GRACE AC BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA > 761129SB.VRN Lectures > Krsna condemns, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritah. Anyone who > thinks that Krsna has a different soul... No. Krsna and Krsna's so-called > soul, the same thing. There is no difference. That is the... Otherwise how > Krsna can lift, as a seven-years-old boy, Govardhana Hill? Is it possible by > this material body? No. That is not possible. This is common sense. But they > cannot understand Krsna, mudha. Avajananti mam mudha. They call, "It is > mythology. Mythology. Everything mythology." First of all they cannot find > out what is God, and when God comes, shows His opulences, these rascals say, > "It is mythology." What God will do? He comes before you. He displays His > mighty opulences. He expanded Himself into sixteen thousand form. > "Mythology." So what can I do? What Krsna can do? Advaitam acyutam anadim > ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca. Sastra says He has got > ananta-rupam, but still one. There is no difference. They cannot understand > the Absolute Truth, and they like to comment upon it foolishly. > Therefore Sanatana Gosvami says that don't hear anything from the Mayavadi, > avaisnava. Mayavadi means avaisnava. Sanatana Gosvami says that sravanam na > kartavyam putam hari-kathamrtam. Sravanam na kartavyam: "Those who are not > Vaisnavas, from them do not hear the transcendental topics." > Avaisnava-mukhodgirnam putam hari-katham, sravanam na kartavyam. He has > warned, "Don't hear. Who is not a Vaisnava, don't hear from him at least > Gita, Bhagavatam. Or any sastra, don't hear," because they do not know what > is actually the position. Krsna also says, naham prakasah sarvasya yogamaya- > sama... Here it is said, yogamaya-vasanaya. Atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved > grahyam indriyaih. These blunt senses, they cannot appreciate what is Krsna. > Yogamaya-samavrtah. He's covered. To the nondevotees, He is covered. To the > devotees--sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva--He reveals: "Yes, I am here > like this." So do not think... Caitanya Mahaprabhu has warned, prakrta > kariya mane visnu kalevara, aparadha nahi ara inhara upara(?). So long we > are aparadhi, offender, there is no possibility of understanding Krsna. And > Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore has warned, that "Don't hear about Krsna or > any transcendental subject matter from a Mayavadi." Mayavadi-bhasya sunile > haya sarva-nasa. If you hear from a Mayavadi, then your advancement in > devotional service is finished. Haya sarva-nasa. You should be very, very > careful. > avaisnava-mukhodgirnam > putam hari-kathamrtam > sravanam na kartavyam > sarpocchista-payo yatha > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 9 > Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:56:42 EDT > Anudasa > ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY > > ROOPA: > Economic Democracy > > INTRODUCTION > > An Economic & Political Policy Platform: > Greater the Vice, Greater the Price > > ROOPA: Responsibility Of One's Products & Actions. > > Lawsuits are a system of monetary compensation by the guilty for the > estimated cost of their victim's damages. Welcome to ROOPA. The only > difference: the precision with which ROOPA tallys' the cost, compensates the > victim and streamlines this into a truly universal system of "justice for > all." > > This principle of compensation is used in courts the world over or found as a > centerpiece in much of our public policy. Insurance companies and others also > use this ROOPA principle as part of everyday business. > > These court, business and legislative practices are much like today's other > economic and public policies. They are a sloppy imitation of this ROOPA > principle. To begin, they are almost entirely arbitrary. Their approach is at > best sporadic in nature, disjointed as a policy and generally clumsily > instituted when followed. > > ROOPA redresses these failings by articulating this principle into a > uniformed, standard procedure. In doing so, it has happened upon a fair, > effective and scientific system of justice that translates beautifully into a > formal economic policy. > > > Premise: > The premise of ROOPA is that every activity produces an economic out come. > ROOPA holds that "good deeds" (virtue or non-vice like education, family and > sobriety) offer profitable economic returns. Conversely, "bad" or vices like > smoking and drinking, create expensive economic "social-cost" by way of > crime, social services, medical expense, impaired work performance, degraded > living standards, etc. > > This is simply an interesting economic observation, not the focus of this > proposal. ROOPA is not a moral quest, but an economic one. > > It simply plays out that activities "generally" viewed by society as a vice, > also have high a degree of social-cost. Things generally viewed as virtuous, > prove economically rewarding. > > ROOPA simply notes this intriguing ECONOMIC correlation. In doing so, > however, ROOPA removes morality from the subjective realm of religious > zealots and places it the realm of science and verifiable numbers. We are all > weary of religious extremist and their brand of moral authority. ROOPA > replaces such relative morality with an objective, measurable science. > > ROOPA then translates this principle into an economic system wherein a > product's "social-cost" will now be included in the upfront wholesale/retail > price. > > "Vice-products" now burdened with the "true-price" of their social-cost will > always prove expensive. > > > > Net Result > > Consumption reduced. > > > > Benefit > > ROOPA circumvents the need for further government regulation. > > > > Advantage > > All the drawbacks of state regulations are finally stamped out. Most taxes, > insurance premiums and fines are nearly eliminated. They've already been > covered in the wholesale/retail price. > > We will have simplified the maze of government tax-codes from tens of > thousands of pages (7 million words) into a single word: ROOPA. The minefield > of tax penalties will have been cleared in one fell swoop. > > Government bureaucracy, waste, corruption, regulation, legal finagling, > racial targeting and penalties are all reduced to nil. The job market for > lawyers, bureaucrats and politicians are reduced right along with it. All of > these schemes and schemers are a sloppy substitute for personal > Responsibility Of One's Products & Actions: ROOPA. > > Here's Why: > The ratio of government regulation generally correlates to the social-cost > associated with an activity. Greater an activities social-cost; the more > government justifies its regulation. > > This supports ROOPA's premise: > > Greater the vice, greater the price. Simply measuring the long-term economic > consequence can designate the gravity of each vice. > > > > End Result: > > Paying ALL related social-costs of any given vice becomes expensive in degree > to the gravity of its "moral" transgression. Further regulation is therefore > unnecessary. > > > > Example > > Government takes the moral stance that smoking is a "bad thing." It so > happens to also carry a clearly defined "bad" economic outcome in medical > expenses--$100 billion a year. > > A child's smoking is viewed by the government as a more serious transgression > then an adults. This coincides with the numbers. A child's smoking causes > greater economic liability by way of higher, long term medical cost. > > Now take the example of crack. The government considers crack cocaine a more > serious vice then cigarettes. As expected, crack also causes far more harm > and social, economic liability by way of crime, social services and medical > expenses. The social-cost for a hit of crack runs into hundreds of dollars. > > This mirrors state regulations wherein smoking for adults comes with some > restrictions such as high taxes or when and where one may smoke. Underage > smoking is banned completely. Crack cocaine is not only banned, but carries > stiff penalties--fines in thousands of dollars, years behind bars. > > All the social-cost government attempts to account for in its regulations are > automatically included in the true-price tag. ROOPA, therefore, accounts for > all of these legislative considerations. Further regulations championing some > moral crusade by government, church or the media are no longer necessary. > The Difference > > Presenting tobacco companies, for example, the challenge to "cut cost" leaves > them to curtail the same areas government was trying to regulate in the first > place. Those areas offer the greatest savings. > > Dividing tobacco related medical cost between each smoker comes to about > $2,500 a year. That's about $1,000 per American family. Eliminating teenage > smoking will reduce much of this cost. Moderation taking the place of > compulsively smoking packs of cigarettes a day would cut cost even further. > > The difference is that government regulation is replaced with the savvy and > resources of a tobacco industry now redirected to meeting these same goals--- > moderate smoking and teenage smokers curtailed. > > Manufacturers will prove more effective then government bureaucrats at > implementing needed safeguards whether via product design, marketing or > compensation. Or they will go out of business and be replaced by one capable > of meeting "market demands." > > Public Policy Formula > Charging the social-cost upon these products makes them expensive > proportionate to the gravity of their "sin" or vice--social cost. As prices > rise, consumption is reduced. > > Cigarettes will go from being a staple of "spastics" to a social, high-end > luxury. Abusive, mass smoking will be tempered. The very goals of government > regulation will have automatically been achieved. > > ROOPA is the duel track of moral and economic imperatives run side by side. > The "true-price" is the deterrent, the penalty and the social compensation > all in one. Further regulatory tampering by church or state is no longer > necessary. > > The true-price tag combines morality and government legislation into an > all-purpose, easy-to-use formula for public policy. It's no longer necessary > to create new policy directives from scratch with each new issue. > > Such an automated system shuts out the politics of "special-interest." > Political corruption and bureaucracy is effectively abolished. Conspiracies > of all kinds--eliminated. It's much harder for multi-nationals to hide their > products social-cost then it is for "them" to blackmail, bribe or sabotage > our government. > > Today's system of justice and reform relies on the integrity of our > politicians, the competency of our government and the righteousness of our > courts. Does anyone else see a problem here? Compromise anyone of these > institutions and the whole system shuts down. This is the story of Washington. > > The U.S. government's struggle with the tobacco industry offers a case in > point. > > Kenneth Starr's law office is a primary law firm of the tobacco industry. > Starr's "independent-counsel" of the White-Water Investigation left Clinton a > weakened president. Clinton's mandate for tobacco reforms was left tethered > in scandal. This saved the tobacco industry hundreds of billions of dollars. > > HMOs, oil companies, nursing homes, the gun lobby--among others, were all > targeted in Clinton's original political itinerary. The impeachment trial > changed all that. Clinton's subdued presidential agenda saved multinationals > trillions. > > Conspiracy or coincidence? It does not matter. ROOPA does not rely on these > government institutions and so can avoid the political shell-games of these > staged scandals. ROOPA bypasses these snags--whether of government bungling > or corporate manipulation. > > ROOPA uses one simple formula: modifying the government's power-to-forgive > perpetrators for (economic) damages to third party victims. The most common > victim is the American taxpayer. ROOPA does not introduce a new tax. It's the > same tax system we have today. The only difference is that politicians can no > longer arbitrarily forgive Big Business from covering their FAIR share. All > of it. No more black mailing or bribing politicians out of one's social cost. > This is all ROOPA ask. > > ROOPA will do for social justice, political reform and economic policy what > credit cards and ATM machines did for banking. ROOPA is the social > "Debit-Card-of-Justice." Automated, concise and universally accessed with > ease. Its primary function: to tally and charge offenders the total cost of > their social damages. > > > > True Free Market > > Higher costs, means less smoking. Less smoking means less medical cost. As > the social (medical) cost drop, so too will the price of cigarettes. When > smoking rises, so too will the social cost and wholesale/retail prices along > with it. > > It's a natural balance between consumer and manufacturer and the public good. > A regulating government middleman is no longer needed. > > ROOPA IS THE ONLY, one true, "Free Market System." Today's global economy > demands "ECO-nomic" and social-cost subsidizes. Today's free market system is > therefore as much a fraud as it is a corruption. > > Tobacco is a $40 billion a year industry. Its social-cost in medical > expenses--$100 billion a year. Smoking consumes more than double in > social-medical subsidies then it generates in economic activity. Gambling and > liquor have a much higher ratio of social-cost subsidy. > > These subsidies represent an economic policy of diminishing returns. It's a > zero sum game. Therefore, segments of the economy and the population have to > be targeted to makeup "the difference." It's the most vulnerable that are > left to pay. > > Washington provides the tobacco industry with a $100 billion a year in > medical cost subsidies to smokers. Yet, our politicians refuse to spend the > $65 billion that could cover America's remaining 45 million uninsured. Much > of these economic shortfalls are `Made from the hides of the third world > people.' > > ROOPA pinpoints those activities of diminishing returns. ROOPA separates them > from activities of "sustainable yield" like education and family. ROOPA > brings tobacco, liquor and other vices to pay "the difference" of their > social-cost subsidies. Paying this difference makes them economically > self-sustaining. Healthcare premiums are instantly reduced by 60% to 80%. > Universal health care--affordable for all. > > Today's "free-market" also demands massive cash bailouts--CONSTANTLY. There's > the billions pumped into Tiger or Capital Investments Corp or Citicorp Bank. > Then we have the hundreds of billions spent bailing out the Asian and South > American stock markets laid waste by foreign investors' `hot money.' > > ROOPA does not require these regular taxpayer bailouts or eco-subsidies. > These costs will now be covered by those responsible for creating them. ROOPA > is a natural market balance and therefore, the one and only true free-market > system. > > This natural-balance allows ROOPA to level the playing field from today's > lopsided economic policy standards between international investors and third > world countries. > > Foreign investors cried foul (political-corruption) over water `subsidies' > for Mexican farmers, over Indonesia's food and fuel price subsidies for the > poor and over medical care for South Korean's. Billions of the world's most > vulnerable people crushed into dire poverty in the name of `free-market > reforms.' > > Somehow, these same `experts' turn a blind eye to tobaccos medical cost, the > US meat industry's free grazing rights for cows on public lands and the > billions more in public services spent on gambling's dire social ills. > Today's `free-market' seems FREE for but a select few-those of vice. ROOPA > makes it `free' for all. > > > > Economic Democracy > > Democracy is governance of the people, by the people. ROOPA is the next step. > ROOPA is governance of ones' self. > > ROOPA is the self-regulation of ones own activities through NATURAL price > restraints. The price will represent the true-cost of ones' activities and > (moral) lifestyle choices: Economic Democracy. > > Our present system does not allow us these options. Today, you are > blackmailed into covering a smoker's medical treatment via way of higher > taxes and high insurance premiums. Either pay it or forfeit your health > coverage and IRS compliance. > > This has been the only option for the 45 million American's now without > health insurance and the additional 35 million with patchy HMO (non) > coverage. Nearly 50% of all personal bankruptcies for example, are due to > "medical reasons." (Time5/15/00) This does not include the tens of millions > buried under by today's tax policies. > > With ROOPA, you can eliminate these penalty expenses by simply not smoking. > Your family would save $1,000 a year in tax and insurance premiums. You can > again reduce your tax and medical premiums by not drinking. You can reduce it > further by eating organically grown produce and wholesome foods. > > Cancer causing pesticide grown foods will now prove more expensive as will > meat and junk foods. They will now bare the medical cost of treating > pesticides cancer-victims or other dietary related ailments. > > Corporate, modern agriculture may not prove the most competitive farming > system after including all its eco-social, medical cost. ROOPA exposes all > such economic distortions and transforms them into economically > self-sustaining activities. > > ROOPA is representative of a simple and obvious economic truth. People will > either cover the social-cost of their activities or someone else will have to > cover it for them. > > ROOPA is therefore not optional. It's the only option. We either have smokers > cover their cancer cost or we will have to cover it for them. Given that a > growing number of us can ill afford these rising healthcare premiums, more of > us are left forfeiting all other healthcare benefits. It's becoming an all or > nothing game. For the 45 million American's without insurance, there is no > other option. ROOPA is the only option. > > Why should smokers cover the cost of an alcoholic's liver problems? Why > should alcoholics cover for smoker's lung problems? Why should the rest of us > pay for either of them? Let them cover their own cost. Welcome to the > responsibility of adulthood, capitalism, the free-market and democracy. > Welcome to ROOPA. > > > > Cost: $5.00 > > It's about 5 bucks above today's price. It cost about $4 per pack of > cigarettes. For $5 bucks more, smokers can have full medical coverage for all > smoking related treatments--free. No more punishing insurance premiums. > Government harassment, restrictions and penalties-gone. > > Is that worth 5 bucks!? This comes to 50 cents a cigarette. It's about 30 > cents more over today's 20 cents per cigarette. Is it worth the 30 cents? > > > > How to Start? > > ROOPA only needs one thing. YOU. Just tell others about it. Do you know 12 > people who would be willing to tell 12 people? It means telling just one > person a month. > > Talking to just one person, who then tells one person, who also tells one > person a month means 200,000 supporters in the first year. It will reach 800 > million people by the 2nd year. That's if we start with a mere 100 people. > > > You can reach nearly a billion people by telling just 12!?! Reaching just 1% > of this means 8 million people speaking in one voice. > > > > The ROOPA Party > > A broad-based, grassroots, independent Third Party "of the people, by the > people and for the people" will have finally been born. No money. No media. > No politicians. No multinational influences. It's you and your friends using > your own voice. Nothing more. Welcome to the ROOPA Party. We can have all > this in place for the next elections in 2 years from now. > > This is the power of each of us taking just a little responsibility. It means > telling just one person a month and paying 30 cents more per cigarette. It's > small enough to change the world. This is the secret formula of democracy and > it's economic counterpart--ROOPA. > > > > Law Suits or ROOPA > > It comes down to this. We either go with ROOPA or stay with its evil cousins: > Big Brother, political corruption, class action lawsuits, and high premiums > and taxes. These are the only two choices. > > Lawsuits are a sloppy version of ROOPA. The billion dollar rewards are > attracting lawyers in mass. Some version of ROOPA is gradually being > instituted throughout every industry. Attorneys will make sure of it. Why not > have the real-thing? > > Lawsuits charge offenders for only a few of the victims and a small portion > of the total social-cost. ROOPA provides all victims full compensation and > does so in partnership with manufacturers and consumers without the middlemen > bandits of lawyers and politicians. > > Which do you prefer? Lawyers and politicians deciding what's best for you or > you deciding what's best for you in each dollar you spend? Lawsuits or > ROOPA!? > > Today, the choice is yours. So begins our Economic Democracy. > > > Available at www.ROOPA.org > > Volume 1 > Introduction: Shown above. > Preface > Chapter 1 Not a Moral Quest, But Economic One > Ch. 2 Common In Courts, Business & Public Policy > Ch. 3 Modern Economics: Little More Than Theories & Ideology > Ch. 4 Fed.s vs. Tobacco: Case in Point > Ch. 5 Starr & Tobacco Connection: Trillions Saved > Ch. 6 ROOPA: Shortcuts Corruption & Gov't Bungling > Ch. 7 Price Tag: Morality & Regulation in One/Greater the Vice; Greater the > Price > Ch. 8 Product: Producer's Baby & Responsibility > Ch. 9 ELIMINATED: Bureaucracy, Corruption & Taxes > Ch. 10 ROOPA Cost: $5 more per pack (of cigarettes) > Ch. 11 Reach A Billion People by Telling Just 1 A Month, > Welcome to the ROOPA Party > Ch. 12 ROOPA: Economic Democracy > > Contact: Anudasa > John/Raghu PO Box 1108 Hilo HI 96721 PH. # 323 969-4727 > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 10 > Mon, 4 Sep 2000 15:27:03 -0700 (PDT) > indrani rampersad <i_rampersad > (unknown) > > > Sir/Madam: Please send me infor on this group. > > Pandita Indrani. > > > > > > Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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