Guest guest Posted September 16, 2000 Report Share Posted September 16, 2000 Dear Ms. Dasi, > The Three Vedas, the 108 Upanisads, the Vedanta-sutra, the smrtis, the > srutis and some 54 Puranas have all been recorded by one author, Srila > Krsna Dvapayana Vyasadeva, a 'literary incarnation of God'. I want to point out that there are more than 108 Upanisads. I do not know the exact number, but there is definately more than 200. > He divided the Veda in three themes (Rg, Yajur and Sama). The Atharva Veda > is of a later date. The Vedas present the first step towards God > consciousness by means of karma-kanda (fruitive activities). The Rig Veda > for instance contains spells and magic formulas for promotion to higher > planetary systems and other motivated purposes. I would not say that the Rgveda contains "spells and magic formulas." The name Rgveda comes from the Sanskrit root "rc" (the 'r' is vocalic) meaning "praise." In the Rgveda we find hymns and prayers to various deities, usually personified powers of nature representing nature-worship. In the Atharvaveda on the other hand one can find things which we can label "spells" and "magic." > Krsna Himself says that all Vedas are meant to know Him. Still, the Vedas > aren't particular bhakti literatures in which the personal aspects of the > Absolute Truth are explicitly described. His personal features have been > preserved in special scriptures which have been written for that purpose. The bhakti scriptures you refer to are all posterior to the Vedas with many centuries. The bhakti conception grew out of the Vedic religion and are later. That Krsna-bhakti is not mentioned in the Rgveda (for example) is not because of the focus of the text, the idea of Krsna-bhakti simply had not developed at the time of the Rgveda. > Brahman is the first stage of God consciousness. [...] > Beyond Brahman the second stage of God consciousness is called Paramatma > realization. [...] > The third and highest stage of God realization is Bhagavan. You describe here the three aspects of the absolute: brahman, paramaatman and bhagavat. Further you say that these are not equal, rather you say that brahman is the lowest, paramaatman in the middle and bhagavat the highest. I guess this stems from the passage vadanti tattattvavidastattva.m yajjnaanamadvayam | brahmeti paramaatmeti bhagavaaniti ;sabdyate || (Bhagavatapurana 1.2.11) "Those who possess the knowledge of the Truth (tattva) call the knowledge of non-duality as the Truth. It is also variously designated as Brahman, Paramaatman og Bhagavaan." (Translation by Ganesh Vasudeo Tagare.) The only problem I perceive here is that the Bhagavatapurana does not explicitly state that there a gradation is intended here -- these three aspects is most likely conceived of as being equal by the author of the Bhagavatapurana. The idea of the gradation seems to have been introduced by a Gaudiya Vaisnava philosopher, Jiva Gosvamin. However, scholars such as Stuart Elkman believes that this is simply an interpretation and not in line with the spirit of the Bhagavatapurana itself. > The International Society for Krsna Consciousness ('Hare Krishnas') are > situated in the unalloyed line coming directly from Krsna and descending > through Brahma-Narada-Vyasadeva-Suta-Krsna-Caitanya-Rupa-Prabhupada, up > till the present day. They are in an unbroken tradition of spiritual > successors, parampara. This guru line is unalloyed and pure, if you want > knowledge of Godhead Himself. What exactly do you mean by "unbroken tradition of spiritual successors"? The guru-parampara presented by Bhaktivedanta Swami in his Bhagavadgita translation shows gaps of centuries between some of the teachers listed. Further in the book "The Authorized Sri Caitanya-Saraswate Parampara" by Swami B. G. Narasingha it is argued, that the Thakura Bhaktivinoda was rejected by his diksa-guru Vipinavihari Gosvamin, thus introducing a broken link in the succession. Of course Swami Narasingha argues that we are really dealing with a succession of "instructing spiritual masters" so that this is not important. Still I do not think that speaking of an "unbroken" succession is reasonable. > If you want to read Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita you should > purchase these books from Vaisnavas. These books are hard to find in book > stores. In fact, there is no bhakti literature available which is > interpreted by authorities from that particular tradition outside India > except from A.C. Bhakti-vedanta Svami Prabhupada. This is not correct. In fact there is four translation of the Bhagavadgita into English by Gaudiya Vaisnava authors available: in the 1930's Swami B. H. Bon published an English Bhagavadgita translation; in the 1940's a translation was published by Tridandi Goswami B. P. Tirtha Maharaj; then came Bhaktivedanta Swami's translation; and in the 1980's a translation was published by Swami B. R. Sridhara, a godbrother of Bhaktivedanta Swami. Besides this there are several missions representing Gaudiya Vaisnavism different from Bhaktivedanta Swami who are distributing the Vaisnava literature in English. > The Bhagavad-gita (a > bhakti scripture) has been translated and interpreted by scientists, > atheists and maya-vadis about 360 times. These perverted copies have been > spread in the Western world. I think that words such as "perverted copies" are too strong. It is not right to say that, for example, the Bhagavadgita is the property of one particular sectarian interpretation. It is as much the property of all the other groups, scholars, advaitins, etc. Franklin Edgerton's edition and translation of the Bhagavadgita is excellent. You cannot call this a "perverted copy" by any means. It is would be a very sectarian and narrow-minded approach. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 ICJ (ISKCON Communications J... Hello Toke!!!: Because any other beside of me, answer to you in the academical grounds (even our scholar Michel Parker), and I have problems with the English. I seriusly recomended, becuase you have very interesting questions that confront the bhagavata tradition.Please can aks your quetions,to this address, and you will found academical people that they can answer your ideas in english in very satisfactoy way. For you can't waste your time in this forum. With my best wish, Horacio F. Arganis Juarez ICJ you can send your aks to Steven Rosend and other scholar that colabore with him. e-mail. Dr.Hridayananda Goswami , from M A of UCLA and Ph D. from Harvard in sanscrit and Indology. hrid Haunmat presaka Swami, from Chicago University Social psicolgy hanu108 Direcciones de correo electrónico: hanu108 Dr. Richard L. Thompson (He is matemathical and research from Cornell Universty and worked in other Universitys and Intutes of science. Here editors De: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <tlknudsen Para: Indira dasi <indira; vediculture <vediculture > Fecha: Lunes 18 de Septiembre de 2000 7:37 AM Asunto: Re: [world-vedic] The Appearance of Sri Krsna > > >Dear Ms. Dasi, > >> The Three Vedas, the 108 Upanisads, the Vedanta-sutra, the smrtis, the >> srutis and some 54 Puranas have all been recorded by one author, Srila >> Krsna Dvapayana Vyasadeva, a 'literary incarnation of God'. > >I want to point out that there are more than 108 Upanisads. I do >not know the exact number, but there is definately more than 200. > > >> He divided the Veda in three themes (Rg, Yajur and Sama). The Atharva Veda >> is of a later date. The Vedas present the first step towards God >> consciousness by means of karma-kanda (fruitive activities). The Rig Veda >> for instance contains spells and magic formulas for promotion to higher >> planetary systems and other motivated purposes. > >I would not say that the Rgveda contains "spells and magic >formulas." The name Rgveda comes from the Sanskrit root "rc" >(the 'r' is vocalic) meaning "praise." In the Rgveda we find hymns >and prayers to various deities, usually personified powers of nature >representing nature-worship. In the Atharvaveda on the other hand >one can find things which we can label "spells" and "magic." > > >> Krsna Himself says that all Vedas are meant to know Him. Still, the Vedas >> aren't particular bhakti literatures in which the personal aspects of the >> Absolute Truth are explicitly described. His personal features have been >> preserved in special scriptures which have been written for that purpose. > >The bhakti scriptures you refer to are all posterior to the Vedas with >many centuries. The bhakti conception grew out of the Vedic >religion and are later. That Krsna-bhakti is not mentioned in the >Rgveda (for example) is not because of the focus of the text, the >idea of Krsna-bhakti simply had not developed at the time of the >Rgveda. > > >> Brahman is the first stage of God consciousness. >[...] >> Beyond Brahman the second stage of God consciousness is called Paramatma >> realization. >[...] >> The third and highest stage of God realization is Bhagavan. > >You describe here the three aspects of the absolute: brahman, >paramaatman and bhagavat. Further you say that these are not >equal, rather you say that brahman is the lowest, paramaatman in >the middle and bhagavat the highest. I guess this stems from the >passage > > vadanti tattattvavidastattva.m yajjnaanamadvayam | > brahmeti paramaatmeti bhagavaaniti ;sabdyate || > (Bhagavatapurana 1.2.11) > >"Those who possess the knowledge of the Truth (tattva) call the >knowledge of non-duality as the Truth. It is also variously >designated as Brahman, Paramaatman og Bhagavaan." >(Translation by Ganesh Vasudeo Tagare.) > >The only problem I perceive here is that the Bhagavatapurana does >not explicitly state that there a gradation is intended here -- these >three aspects is most likely conceived of as being equal by the >author of the Bhagavatapurana. The idea of the gradation seems to >have been introduced by a Gaudiya Vaisnava philosopher, Jiva >Gosvamin. However, scholars such as Stuart Elkman believes that >this is simply an interpretation and not in line with the spirit of the >Bhagavatapurana itself. > > >> The International Society for Krsna Consciousness ('Hare Krishnas') are >> situated in the unalloyed line coming directly from Krsna and descending >> through Brahma-Narada-Vyasadeva-Suta-Krsna-Caitanya-Rupa-Prabhupada, up >> till the present day. They are in an unbroken tradition of spiritual >> successors, parampara. This guru line is unalloyed and pure, if you want >> knowledge of Godhead Himself. > >What exactly do you mean by "unbroken tradition of spiritual >successors"? The guru-parampara presented by Bhaktivedanta >Swami in his Bhagavadgita translation shows gaps of centuries >between some of the teachers listed. Further in the book "The >Authorized Sri Caitanya-Saraswate Parampara" by Swami B. G. >Narasingha it is argued, that the Thakura Bhaktivinoda was >rejected by his diksa-guru Vipinavihari Gosvamin, thus introducing >a broken link in the succession. Of course Swami Narasingha >argues that we are really dealing with a succession of "instructing >spiritual masters" so that this is not important. Still I do not think >that speaking of an "unbroken" succession is reasonable. > > >> If you want to read Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita you should >> purchase these books from Vaisnavas. These books are hard to find in book >> stores. In fact, there is no bhakti literature available which is >> interpreted by authorities from that particular tradition outside India >> except from A.C. Bhakti-vedanta Svami Prabhupada. > >This is not correct. In fact there is four translation of the >Bhagavadgita into English by Gaudiya Vaisnava authors available: >in the 1930's Swami B. H. Bon published an English Bhagavadgita >translation; in the 1940's a translation was published by Tridandi >Goswami B. P. Tirtha Maharaj; then came Bhaktivedanta Swami's >translation; and in the 1980's a translation was published by Swami >B. R. Sridhara, a godbrother of Bhaktivedanta Swami. Besides this >there are several missions representing Gaudiya Vaisnavism >different from Bhaktivedanta Swami who are distributing the >Vaisnava literature in English. > > >> The Bhagavad-gita (a >> bhakti scripture) has been translated and interpreted by scientists, >> atheists and maya-vadis about 360 times. These perverted copies have been >> spread in the Western world. > >I think that words such as "perverted copies" are too strong. It is >not right to say that, for example, the Bhagavadgita is the property >of one particular sectarian interpretation. It is as much the property >of all the other groups, scholars, advaitins, etc. Franklin >Edgerton's edition and translation of the Bhagavadgita is excellent. >You cannot call this a "perverted copy" by any means. It is would >be a very sectarian and narrow-minded approach. > >Sincerely, >Toke Lindegaard Knudsen > > > > >This is an information resource and discussion group for people interested in the World's Ancient Vedic Culture, with a focus on its historical, archeological and scientific aspects. Also topics about India, Hinduism, God, and other aspects of World Culture are welcome. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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