Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 - Indira dasi <indira Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <tlknudsen Cc: Prema 2 <sviyer99; Prema 1 <SaiSunflower Monday, September 18, 2000 2:28 PM BHAKTI SOURCES > > - > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <tlknudsen > Indira dasi <indira; <vediculture > > Saturday, September 16, 2000 10:01 PM > Re: [world-vedic] The Appearance of Sri Krsna > > Toke comments on Indira Dasi: > > > > Dear Ms. Dasi, > > INDIRA WROTE: > > The Three Vedas, the 108 Upanisads, the Vedanta-sutra, the smrtis, the > > > srutis and some 54 Puranas have all been recorded by one author, Srila > > > Krsna Dvapayana Vyasadeva, a 'literary incarnation of God'. > > > TOKE COMMENTS: > > > I want to point out that there are more than 108 Upanisads. I do > > not know the exact number, but there is definately more than 200. > > INDIRA REPLIES: > > AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE IS A TOTAL NUMBER OF 108 UPANISADS. THIS IS A HOLY > NUMBER. THAT'S IN THE LINE OF THE TRANSCENDENTAL SYSTEM. IF YOU INCLUDE THE > COMMENTARIES (BHASYAS) ON THE UPANISADS YOU MAY COUNT A DIFFERENT NUMBER. > > > > > > > He divided the Veda in three themes (Rg, Yajur and Sama). The Atharva > Veda > > > is of a later date. The Vedas present the first step towards God > > > consciousness by means of karma-kanda (fruitive activities). The Rig > Veda > > > for instance contains spells and magic formulas for promotion to higher > > > planetary systems and other motivated purposes. > >TOKE: > > I would not say that the Rgveda contains "spells and magic > > formulas." The name Rgveda comes from the Sanskrit root "rc" > > (the 'r' is vocalic) meaning "praise." In the Rgveda we find hymns > > and prayers to various deities, usually personified powers of nature > > representing nature-worship. In the Atharvaveda on the other hand > > one can find things which we can label "spells" and "magic." > > INDIRA: > DEMIGOD WORSHIP AND WORSHIP OF THE PRESIDING DEITIES OF NATURAL ELEMENTS > LIKE FIRE (AGNI) FOR INSTANCE IN THE FORMS OF FORMULAS AND CHANTS AS WELL AS > PARTICULAR ACTIVITIES FALLS IN THE CATEGORY OF KARMA-KANDA, FRUITIVE > ACTIVITIES. > BY WORSHIPPING THEM ONE OBTAINS GROSS AND SUBTLE MATERIAL PROFIT AND BOONS > WHICH CAN EASILY BE USED TO MANIPULATE THE POWERS OF NATURE. > THEREFORE I CALL THIS LOW CLASS WORSHIP, WHICH IS IN PRACTICE ALMOST SIMILAR > TO ANIMALISM, MAGIC SPELLS. > > > > > > > Krsna Himself says that all Vedas are meant to know Him. Still, the > Vedas > > > aren't particular bhakti literatures in which the personal aspects of > the > > > Absolute Truth are explicitly described. His personal features have been > > > preserved in special scriptures which have been written for that > purpose. > >TOKE: > > The bhakti scriptures you refer to are all posterior to the Vedas with > > many centuries. > > INDIRA: > THIS IS CAUSED BY THE EMPIRIC WAY OF RESEARCHING WHICH ACCEPTS SOME TACTILE > COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL SOURCES WHICH HAVE BEEN LOST IN TIME AS PROOF OF > THEIR ORIGINALITY. > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO CONSERVE A WRITTEN TEXT IN A CLIMATE LIKE THE INDIAN > WHICH HAS A HUMIDITY OF ALMOST 100 PERCENT. > SCIENTISTS WILL FIND ONLY COPIES OF COPIES OF COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL > SOURCES. IF THE LAST WRITTEN COPY WAS MADE CENTURIES AFTER THE ORIGINAL ONE, > THAT DOESN'T MEAN THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE VERSES WERE COMPOSED CENTURIES AFTER > THE ORIGINAL PUBLICATION OF VYASADEVA! > > TOKE: > The bhakti conception grew out of the Vedic > > religion and are later. That Krsna-bhakti is not mentioned in the > > Rgveda (for example) is not because of the focus of the text, the > > idea of Krsna-bhakti simply had not developed at the time of the > > Rgveda. > > > INDIRA: > DEAR TOKE, IF THE TRADITION ITSELF ORIGINATING FROM BRAHMA KNOWS BY VARIOUS > MEANS THAT THE GREATEST SCRIPTURE ON BHAKTI, SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM, WHICH IS THE > CONCLUSION ON THE VEDAS AND THE VEDANTA-SUTRA, IS WRITTEN BY THE SAME AUTHOR > WHO COMPOSED AND DIVIDED THE VEDAS, AND YOU MAINTAIN THE MODERN SCIENTIFIC > VIEW THAT BHAKTI LITERATURES ARE OF A MUCH LATER DATE Y O U I N F A C T > A C C U S E T H E T R A D I T I O N A N D G O D H E A D H I M S E > L F T O B E L Y A R S ! PLEASE BE SENSIBLE. > > BHAKTI EXISTED ALREADY TWO MILLION YEARS AGO IN THE AGE OF TRETA WHEN > PRAHLADA MAHARAJA TAUGHT HIS DEMONIAC SCHOOLMATES THE NINE PROCESSES OF > BHAKTI IN WORSHIP OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, SRI KRSNA. > > SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM CANTO 7, CHAPTER 5, VERSES 23-24 > SRI PRAHLADA UVACA > SRAVANAM KIRTANAM VISNO > SMARANAM PADA-SEVANAM > ARCANAM VANDANAM DASYAM > SAKHYAM ATMA-NIVEDANAM > > (IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRANSLATION OF THIS VERSE LET ME KNOW, PLEASE) > > > INDIRA:> > Brahman is the first stage of God consciousness. > > [...] > > > Beyond Brahman the second stage of God consciousness is called Paramatma > > > realization. > > [...] > > > The third and highest stage of God realization is Bhagavan. > > > > TOKE: You describe here the three aspects of the absolute: brahman, > > paramaatman and bhagavat. Further you say that these are not > > equal, rather you say that brahman is the lowest, paramaatman in > > the middle and bhagavat the highest. I guess this stems from the > > passage > > > > vadanti tattattvavidastattva.m yajjnaanamadvayam | > > brahmeti paramaatmeti bhagavaaniti ;sabdyate || > > (Bhagavatapurana 1.2.11) > > > > "Those who possess the knowledge of the Truth (tattva) call the > > knowledge of non-duality as the Truth. It is also variously > > designated as Brahman, Paramaatman og Bhagavaan." > > (Translation by Ganesh Vasudeo Tagare.) > > > > The only problem I perceive here is that the Bhagavatapurana does > > not explicitly state that there a gradation is intended here -- these > > three aspects is most likely conceived of as being equal by the > > author of the Bhagavatapurana. The idea of the gradation seems to > > have been introduced by a Gaudiya Vaisnava philosopher, Jiva > > Gosvamin. However, scholars such as Stuart Elkman believes that > > this is simply an interpretation and not in line with the spirit of the > > Bhagavatapurana itself. > > INDIRA: > THE BHAGAVAT PURANA ITSELF IS PROOF OF THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE > IMPERSONAL AND PERSONAL FEATURES OF THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. > > IF BRAHMAN, PARAMATMA AND BHAGAVAN REALIZATIONS WOULD BE IDENTICAL THEN > VYASADEVA WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN INSTRUCTED BY NARADA MUNI TO CONCLUDE THE > VEDAS AND THE IMPERSONAL VEDANTA-SUTRA WITH SOME SEVENTEEN THOUSAND VERSES > ON THE PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES OF THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD AND HIS DEVOTEES IN > THE COURSE OF HISTORY. > > I ALREADY DEFINED THE DIFFERENT GOALS WHICH ARE ATTAINED BY THE DIFFERENT > STAGES OF GODREALIZATION BEFORE. IN MODERN DAYS THE GOAL OF BRAHMAN > MEDITATION IS TO MERGE IN IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN WHICH MEANS TO BECOME BRAHMAN > ONESELF. > > THIS BRAHMAVADA SCHOOL OF PHILOSOPHY IS COMPLETELY OPPOSED TO THE > REALIZATION OF BHAGAVAN IN WHICH THE INDIVIDUAL SOUL REALIZES THAT HE IS > ETERNALLY THE SERVANT OF THE SUPREME PERSON, SRI KRSNA (OR VISNU). > > SCHOLARS LIKE STUART ELKMAN HAVE NO SPIRITUAL REALIZATION. THEREFORE SUCH > INVESTIGATORS HAVE NO DEXTERITY TO JUDGE THE CONTENTS OF SUCH SPIRITUAL > SCRIPTURES WHICH IN FACT ARE MEANT TO BE STUDIED BY BRAHMANAS, BHAKTAS AND > PURE SOULS. EMPIRIC KNOWLEDGE IS AN IMPEDIMENT TO KNOW THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH > BECAUSE KRSNA WILL WITHHOLD IT FROM PERSONS WHO ARE TOO MENTALLY INCLINED. > > REGARDING THIS SUPREMELY TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE THERE'S NO SCOPE OF > 'BELIEVING' BASED ON MENTAL SPECULATION AND EMPIRIC (SENSORY) SO-CALLED > EVIDENCE. > > THESE SCRIPTURES PRESENT DIVINE ABSOLUTE TRUTH WHICH IS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT > TRANSCENDENTAL, OR BEYOND THE SENSES AND FAR ABOVE MUNDANE SCIENCE. > > IT'S DEPENDENT ON THE INDIVIDUAL READER'S ADVANCEMENT OF CONSCIOUSNESS, > SPIRITUAL REALIZATION AND THE MERCY OF GURU AND BHAGAVAN HIMSELF, IF HE OR > SHE RECOGNIZES THESE SOURCES AS BEING THE HIGHEST TRUTH OR NOT. > > ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SURE IF YOURSELF ARE A SCIENTIST I NEVERTHELESS HAVE TO > INFORM YOU THAT DEVOTEES ARE THE HIGHEST AUTHORITIES TO COMMENT ON - OR > EXPLAIN THESE WRITTEN SOURCES - NOT SO-CALLED SCIENTIFIC WORD JUGGLERS WHO > WORK, THINK, FEEL, DESIRE AND LIVE ONLY AND ONLY AND ONLY FOR THEIR OWN > PERSONAL SENSE GRATIFICATION, FOR THEIR FALSE EGO SENSE, AND THEIR > INTELLECTUAL AGRANDISEMENT. TO THINK THAT A SCIENTIST WORKS FOR THE BENEFIT > OF HUMANITY IS NON-SENSE BECAUSE THIS ARGUMENT IS ALSO BASED ON EXTENDED > SENSE GRATIFICATION OF THE PERSON IN QUESTION. THIS IS THE GREATEST > DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE EXPERTISE OF A SCIENTIST AND A DEVOTEE WITH RESPECT > TO THESE HOLY LITERATURES. > > > > > > > INDIRA:The International Society for Krsna Consciousness ('Hare > Krishnas') are > > > situated in the unalloyed line coming directly from Krsna and descending > > > through Brahma-Narada-Vyasadeva-Suta-Krsna-Caitanya-Rupa-Prabhupada, up > > > till the present day. They are in an unbroken tradition of spiritual > > > successors, parampara. This guru line is unalloyed and pure, if you want > > > knowledge of Godhead Himself. > > > >TOKE: What exactly do you mean by "unbroken tradition of spiritual > > successors"? The guru-parampara presented by Bhaktivedanta > > Swami in his Bhagavadgita translation shows gaps of centuries > > between some of the teachers listed. > > INDIRA: > AS KRSNA SAYS IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THE LINE WAS BROKEN IN HISTORY SINCE > CREATION. FOR THAT REASON HE CAME TO THE EARTH TO REINSTALL THIS KNOWLEDGE > OF YOGA AND BHAKTI, 5,000 YEARS AGO. FROM THAT TIME ON ALL SUCCESSIVE > SPIRITUAL MASTERS ARE KNOWN IN THE TRADITION OF THE GAUDIYAS. > > THE SECOND TIME THIS PARAMPARA AND KNOWLEDGE WAS ESTABLISHED AS GENUINE AND > BONAFIDE WAS BY THE TEACHINGS OF CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU ONLY FIVE HUNDRED YEARS > AGO. CAITANYA WAS THE LAST INCARNATION OF KRSNA IN THE MOOD OF SRIMATI > RADHIKA TO TEACH RAGANUGA-BHAKTI (SPONTANEOUS BHAKTI). > > KRSNA IN THE GITA TEACHES VAIDHI-BHAKTI (REGULATED BHAKTI) WHICH IS THE SAME > AS PRAHLADA MAHARAJA TAUGHT IN TRETA-YUGA. THEREFORE BHAKTI OR > BHAGAVAD-DHARMA EXISTED ALREADY FROM CREATION. IF YOU DOUBT THIS, PLEASE, > READ SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM. EVERYTHING WILL BE REVEALED ABOUT THE HISTORY OF > BHAGAVAD-DHARMA. > > ONLY BY THE TEACHINGS OF CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU THIS BHAKTI CULT HAS BECOME > POPULAR IN MODERN HISTORY BECAUSE CAITANYA TAUGHT A HIGHER PROCESS OF BHAKTI > THAN EVER BEFORE. > > AFTER CAITANYA LOTS AND LOTS OF BHAKTI LITERATURES HAVE BEEN WRITTEN. THIS > MIGHT GIVE YOU - AND SCIENTISTS THE IDEA THAT BHAKTI DIDN'T EXIST IN ANCIENT > TIMES AND THAT KRSNA-BHAKTI ONLY WAS DEVELOPED SINCE MEDIEVAL HINDUISM IN > THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY. AFTER ALL SRILA JAYADEVA WROTE THE FAMOUS 'GITA > GOVINDA' IN THE TWELFTH CENTURY LONG BEFORE CAITANYA'S DESCENT. > > > TOKE: Further in the book "The > > Authorized Sri Caitanya-Saraswate Parampara" by Swami B. G. > > Narasingha it is argued, that the Thakura Bhaktivinoda was > > rejected by his diksa-guru Vipinavihari Gosvamin, thus introducing > > a broken link in the succession. Of course Swami Narasingha > > argues that we are really dealing with a succession of "instructing > > spiritual masters" so that this is not important. Still I do not think > > that speaking of an "unbroken" succession is reasonable. > > INDIRA: > IN THE BOOK BY TRIDANDISVAMI SRIMAD BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYANA MAHARAJA ON HIS > SPIRITUAL MASTER ACARYA KESARI SRI SRIMAD BHAKTIPRAJNANA KESAVA GOSVAMI (who > are followers in the line directly from Rupa Gosvami and Bhaktivinoda > Thakura), HIS LIFE AND TEACHINGS 1999, ON PAGE 305 IS STATED THE FOLLOWING > ABOUT THE PARAMPARA OF THE ACARYAS. > > "ACCORDING TO THE PANCARATRIKA-GURU-PARAMPARA, THE DIKSA-GURU OF SRI > BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA IS SRI VIPINA BIHARI GOSVAMI, WHO IS SITUATED IN THE > PANCARATRIKA-PARAMPARA OF SRI SRI JAHNAVA THAKURANI. > "FROM OUR OTHER VIEWPOINT, NO ONE CAN DENY THAT SRI BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA'S > LIFE IS IMPRINTED WITH THE STAMP OF SRILA JANANNATHA DASA BABAJI MAHARAJA'S > ANUGATYA (GUIDANCE). > "VAISNAVA SARVABHAUMA SRILA JAGANNATHA MAHARAJA IS A DISCIPLE OF THE FAMOUS > MADHUSUDANA DASA BABAJI MAHARAJA IN THE PARAMPARA OF SRI BALADEVA > VIDYABHUSANA. > "IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO SAY THAT VAISNAVA SARVABHAUMA SRILA JAGANNATHA DASA > BABAJI MAHARAJA IS SUPERIOR TO SRI VIPINA BIHARI GOSVAMI IN TATTVA-JNANA, > BHAJANA-SIKSA, ETC." > > MY PERSONAL IMPRESSION OF SVAMI NARASINGHA IS THAT ALTHOUGH HE IS A DISCIPLE > OF SRILA SRIDHARA MAHARAJA WHO IS A GREAT VAISNAVA IN THE GAUDIYA VEDANTA > LINE, NARASINGHA STARTED HIS OWN BUSINESS AND IS MUCH ENGAGED IN > ARGUMENTATION AND GOSSIP IN SUCH A WAY THAT I LATELY UN-SUBSCRIBED FROM HIS > LIST OF PUBLICATIONS AND WEB PAGE 'KRSNA TALK'. > I'M VERY SORRY TO SAY THIS. > > > > > > > If you want to read Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita you should > > > purchase these books from Vaisnavas. These books are hard to find in > book > > > stores. In fact, there is no bhakti literature available which is > > > interpreted by authorities from that particular tradition outside India > > > except from A.C. Bhakti-vedanta Svami Prabhupada. > > > > This is not correct. In fact there is four translation of the > > Bhagavadgita into English by Gaudiya Vaisnava authors available: > > in the 1930's Swami B. H. Bon published an English Bhagavadgita > > translation; in the 1940's a translation was published by Tridandi > > Goswami B. P. Tirtha Maharaj; then came Bhaktivedanta Swami's > > translation; and in the 1980's a translation was published by Swami > > B. R. Sridhara, a godbrother of Bhaktivedanta Swami. Besides this > > there are several missions representing Gaudiya Vaisnavism > > different from Bhaktivedanta Swami who are distributing the > > Vaisnava literature in English. > > I'M SORRY I DIDN'T KNOW THAT YOU WERE CONVERSANT WITH THE GAUDIYA > LITERATURES. I MEANT TO SAY, THAT TODAY ONLY BHAKTI SCRIPTURES ARE AVAILABLE > FROM THE GAUDIYA AUTHORITIES LIKE YOU MENTIONED ABOVE OF WHICH SRILA > PRABHUPADA'S BOOKS HAVE BEEN DISTRIBUTED EN GROS. HOWEVER OUTSIDE THE LINE > OF THE GAUDIYA TEACHERS NOT MUCH RELEVANT LITERATURE CAN BE FOUND IN THE > WEST. THE GAUDIYA LITERATURES ARE THE MAIN STREAM OF BONAFIDE > BHAGAVAN-BHAKTI AT THE MOMENT. > > > > > > > The Bhagavad-gita (a > > > bhakti scripture) has been translated and interpreted by scientists, > > > atheists and maya-vadis about 360 times. These perverted copies have > been > > > spread in the Western world. > > > > I think that words such as "perverted copies" are too strong. It is > > not right to say that, for example, the Bhagavadgita is the property > > of one particular sectarian interpretation. It is as much the property > > of all the other groups, scholars, advaitins, etc. Franklin > > Edgerton's edition and translation of the Bhagavadgita is excellent. > > You cannot call this a "perverted copy" by any means. It is would > > be a very sectarian and narrow-minded approach. > > > ALTHOUGH ALL CHURCHES CALL OUT FOR THE POSSESSION OF THEIR OWN ORIGINAL > GODHEAD, THE GAUDIYA VAISNAVA LINE OF ACARYAS IS THE ORIGINAL SOURCE BECAUSE > IT IS CONNECTED TO THE LAST TWO INCARNATIONS OF KRSNA-BALADEVA AND SRIMAN > MAHAPRABHU CAITANYADEVA AND NITYANANDA PRABHU. THIS IS SCIENTIFIC. > > THERE ARE THREE OR FOUR OTHER PURE VAISNAVA SAMPRADAYAS, LIKE THE > PUSTIMARGAS, THE NIMBARKAS, THE VALLABHA TIRTHAS, ETC. WHO ARE ENGAGED IN > PURE WORSHIP OF KRSNA IN THE SAME BHAKTI PROCESS AS OURS, HOWEVER, THEY ARE > NOT PARTICULARLY CONNECTED TO THE HIGHEST TEACHINGS GIVEN BY GODHEAD HIMSELF > (CAITANYA) FOR THIS KALI-AGE, NAMELY THE SUPREME WORSHIP OF SRIMATI RADHIKA > IN THE SIDDHA-SVARUPA OF A MANJARI IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF SRILA RUPA GOSVAMI. > > ONLY THE GAUDIYA VEDANTA SAMITI AND ITS TEACHERS ARE FOLLOWERS OF THE LATEST > INJUCTIONS MADE BY CAITANYA AND RUPA GOSVAMI. THEREFORE WE ARE KNOWN AS > RUPANUGAS. > > THIS IS NOT A SECT. TO BE A SECT MEANS THAT YOU HAVE DEVIATED FROM THE > ORIGINAL TEACHING. THE GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA IS THE ORIGINAL ROOT FROM WHICH > OTHER SECTS HAVE DEVIATED AND WILL DEVIATE IN THE FUTURE. > > ANY INTERPRETATION MADE BY THE ACARYAS IN THE GAUDIYA VEDANTA PARAMPARA IS > NOT SECTARIAN BUT THE UNDEVIATED TEACHING DIRECTLY COMING FROM THE MOUTH OF > GODHEAD HIMSELF THROUGH BHAGAVAD-GITA AND CAITANYA CARITAMRTA. > I'M SORRY, WE ARE NOT A SECT - WE ARE THE SOURCE FOR SECTS. > > > Sincerely, > > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen > > MAY BE THIS FURTHER EXPLICATION WAS MORE HELPFUL. > KINDLY YOURS, > INDIRA DASI > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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