Muslims Bow to Rama & Shiva

[Guest guest]

>"Ashok Chowgule"

>"Ashok Chowgule"

>"Raghu \(John\) Anudas"

>CC: "Vrn Davan"

>Re: Muslims Bow to Rama &; Shiva >Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:08:36

+0530 > >Raghunatha Anudasa > >Ashok Chowgule. > >18 February 2001 >

>Dear Raghunathaji, >Pranam, > >What Muslim (and for that matter Christianity)

is has to be determined >what their followers say it is. Your interpretation of

the system does >not cut ice with their followers, if their interpretation is

different >from yours. For example, take the case of jihad. The followers of

>Islam say that in their actions at places like Kashmir, Afghanistan,

>Jerusalem, and even America, they are undertaking a jihad. Others >saying that

this is a perversion of the concept of jihad is neither here >nor there. > >The

objective of Islam is to destroy all the other faiths that exist in >the world.

(Christianity also dreams of the same thing.) The reason is >that according to

their theology, Mohammed is the last prophet. While >there have been other

prophets before him, God has corrected all the >shortcomings in them and made

Mohammed perfect. Thus, they say why >accept second best? According to them,

converting others is an act of >great merit. And killing one who resists is an

act of even greater >merit. > >This is what THEY believe. Similarly, when they

pray in a mosque on a >vandalised holy site of the indigenous people, the last

thing that they >have in mind is that they are bowing before the indigenous

deity. They >say that they are praying because of the victory of Islam over the

>indigenous culture. Only a defeated mind set wants to think otherwise. >

>Hindus have, and will, tolerate lots of things. But there is a limit. >The

followers of Islam and Christianity want to destroy Hinduism, and >one of the

ways to do this is to vandalise the holy sites of the Hindus. >They have done

it in all the places that they have went to by force. >They did this in the

Americas, where they not only destroyed the >civilisations, but nearly

destroyed all the people that inhabited the >continent. As they said the only

good Indian is a dead Indian. > >Hinduism survived because they did not have a

defeated mentality. They >resisted where they could, and reasserted themselves

whenever they had >an opportunity. It is because of this that the Hindu

philosophy was >kept alive. Thousands of sants and sages have made great

sacrifice in >the past, and thousands of sants and sages will make sacrifice in

the >future to defend the essence of Hinduism. The followers of Hinduism >should

not belittle this sacrifice. Let me quote what Swami Vivekanand >said: > >"Your

forefathers underwent everything boldly, even death itself, but >preserved

their religion. Temple after temple was broken down by the >foreign conqueror,

but no sooner had the wave passed than the spire of >the temple rose up again.

Some of these old temples of Southern India, >and those like Somnath of

Gujarat, will teach you volumes of wisdom, >will give you keener insight into

the history of the race than any >amounts of books. Mark how these temples bear

the marks of a hundred >attacks and a hundred regenerations, continually

destroyed and >continually springing up out of the ruins, rejuvenated and

strong as >ever! That is the national mind, that is the national life-current.

>Follow it and it leads to glory. Give it up and you die; death will be >the

only result, annihilation the only effect, the moment you step >beyond the

life-current. I do not mean to say that other things are not >necessary. I do

not mean to say that political or social improvements >are not necessary, but

what I mean is this, and I want you to bear it in >mind, that they are

secondary here, and that religion is primary." > >Hinduism has to survive not

only for the sake of the Hindus, but for the >sake of mankind. Without the

alternative that Hinduism offers against >Islam and Christianity, the future of

mankind will be in very serious >question. It is no wonder that a great

philosopher like Arnold Toynbee >realised this, and he wrote: > >"Today we are

still living in this transitional chapter of world's >history, but it is

already becoming clear that the chapter which had a >western beginning, will

have an Indian ending, if it is not to end in >self destruction of the human

race. At this supremely dangerous moment >in human history, the only way of

salvation for mankind is the Indian >way - Emperor Asoka's and Mahatma Gandhi's

principle of non-violence and >Sri Ramkrishna's testimony of religions." > >He

also said: > >"When we pass from the plane of social practice to the plane of

>intellectual outlook, Hinduism too comes out well by comparison with the

>religious and ideologies of the South-West Asian group. In contrast to >these,

Hinduism has the same outlook as the pre-Christian and pre-Muslim >religions and

philosophies of the Western half of the old world. Like >them, Hinduism takes it

for granted that there is more than one valid >approach to truth and to

salvation and that these different approaches >are not only compatible with

each other, but are complementary." > >I know about the movement toward the

revival of ethnic religions in >Europe. All of them are looking at Hinduism to

be their beacon for the >revival of not only their ancient religion, but also

their culture. > >We in the VHP are in the process of bringing out a booklet to

explain >the ethos of the Shri Rama Janmabhoomi movement. In the meantime we

>have posted it on the net, and it is available at: >

>http://www.hvk.org/ram/janm/index.htm > >I am sure you will profit by reading

it. > >Namaste. > >Ashok Chowgule. > >============================== > > >-----

Original Message ----- >"Raghu (John) Anudas"

>"Ashok"

>Cc: "Raghu"

>18 February, 2001 8:17 PM >Re: Muslims Bow to Rama &; Shiva > >

>Muslims Bow to Rama &; Shiva > >Muslims bow daily to the stone of Mecca. That

stone is said to be the >remains of a large Siva Lingam. How bout asking for

permission for >Hindu's to worship there next Shiva yatri? In return, Hindus

consider >letting Muslims bow to Rama at Rama's birthsite in the name of a

mosque? >The point? We may have a lot more in common--both historical &; in

>worship--then either side may care to admit. Here is one effective

>(explosive) way to introduce the point into the debate. > > >My dear Ashok, >

>You asked the million dollar question: Is it wrong to build a Babri >structure

mosque at the site of Lord Rama's birth place? > >If there is nothing wrong with

this, then what are Hindu's fighting for? > >To answer the question, let me ask

you this. > >Would there be anything wrong in using a Babri structure mosque

for a >temple? > >Hindu congregations use old Christian churches for temples

though beef >and liquor had been used in those places. Could we use a mosque

for such >a temple in similar fashion? > >What designates these houses of

worship? >Is it their structural design or is it the meditation and devotion of

>their practitioner? > >If Muslims began to feel that they were in fact bowing

to Rama, would >their worship be to Allah or to Rama? I would be interested to

know what >Muslims say on this as much as your own response. > >If a Muslim

bows down to Allah in a HIndu temple, is he bowing to the >Hindu God or Allah?

> >If Hindus built a temple and worshiped for money and political >posturing,

is that temple for Rama or a political monument? > >Only in defining the role

and weight the heart carries in this >worship-equation can we better assess

what is truly "wrong" or right. >Let's assume a temple is nothing more then its

structural design. Also >assume a mosque is unusable for any other worship then

that of Allah. >These premises lead us to a very different debate then one in

which our >Lord is capable of accepting devotion from both houses of worship.

This >becomes even more relevant if our Lord will in fact disregard the

>worship of the politically motivated no matter the structural design. > >Using

the scenario that Rama may be tricking Muslims into worshiping Him >will place

into this debate matters of the heart and powers of the holly >sites effects

upon its (unwitting) pilgrams. These issue forces both >parties to take stock

of what their worship is all about. Shouldn't this >be the first consideration?

The essence, Bhakti--love of God, seems to >have been overlooked in this debate.

These points may help to bring >Bhakti back into focus. > >There is a difference

between the Deva's, demigods, and the Bhakta's, >devotees. The deva's fight with

the daityas for regions of the universe >and control of heavenly real estate

much as Indra fought with >Hiranyakasipu. The Bhakta's however, simply want to

win the hearts of >the daityas to love the Lord. The Bhakta's like Prahlad

don't fret over >what the asura's have stolen. Prahlad only cared to transform

>Hiranyakashipu's heart from the ways of kama and kroda to that of love >and

devotion for Visnu. Prahlad did not want his fathers kingdom as the >demigods

did, though Prahlads was the rightful heir. Therefore, Prahlad >held no

animosity towards and felt no fear of Hiranyakasipu that >otherwise plagued the

demigods. > >This is the secret and power of bhakta's over that of the devas.

The >Bhakta's are attached to Krsna and nothing more. The Deva's are attached

>to heaven much like those of other religions interested in heaven rather >then

bhakti--love of God. Though the cause of the Deva's was just and >'right,' it

left them hostage to Hiranyakashipu and the ups and downs of >the material

world. This is the problem with attachment to the material >world's forms of

goodness and religion. More importantly, the plight of >the Deva's did not

capture the heart of the Lord. It was Prahlad's >devotion offered within the

house of Hiranyakashipu that attracted the >Lord and forced Nrisingadev to

appear from a porch pillar. If we care to >win Rama's greatest favor, it will

be done through devotion, not >political cause. > >By considering these issues

it will introduce Muslims to the historic >precedent of Muslims worshipping in

Hindu temples. The best example of >course is the sacred stone of Mecca, which

was previously worshiped as a >Siva lingam. It was in fact a Hindu temple

visited by Mohamad and >recognized by him as authorized worship. The temple was

later taken over >by Muslim conquerors who promptly buried the other 125 deities

in the >court yard. Few other causes will allow us to introduce these

>considerations into the Muslim dialogue more effectively then this issue >over

Lord Rama's birth place. Well, there is the option of asking the >Muslim world

for permission to go and worship the Mecca Siva lingam >during the next Shiva

yatra. That may offer quite a response. > >Now for your question about ROOPA. >

>You questioned the $50,000 a year per person estimate that their vice is

>costing society. You wondered if this was "excessive." Let me begin like

>this. Vice has two cost. One is 'out-of-pocket-cost.' The other is

>'economic-cost.' > >For example, 'out-of-pocket-cost' for drugs would include

hiring added >cops, jailing drug dealers, court &; medical cost for drug

victims. These >services require out of pocket money from tax and insurance

premium >payers. > >The 'economic-cost' of the drug trade, however, proves far

more >expensive. 'Economic-cost' would include things like collapsed real

>estate values wherein millions in equity can fanish instantly, stolen or

>vandalized properties can cost millions to repair and lost work or >degraded

worker performance can cost US companies billions. > >Gambling, for example,

decimates real estate values of all other >neighborhoods but the casino's own

immediate surrounding area. It closes >the majority of all other (small)

businesses, thereby costing billions >in social displacement. Meanwhile, the

countries greatest rate of >bankruptcies are concentrated around casinos. Each

of those bankruptcies >represent families who have lost their homes leaving

government to pick >up the tab for another welfare mother and child or carrying

the social >burden of another homeless man. > >$50,000 maybe understating the

price tag of vice when including these >other social economic costs. Each of

vices activities from smoking, to >drinking, to gambling, to prostitution can

alone cost society $50,000 a >year per person. Add up the price tag for all

vices combined, and you >may find the bill to be 2 to 4 times higher then

$50,000 a year. >Economic necessity dictates we find the answer. I therefore

ask you for >advice, leads or help in finding the answer to these issues. > >Do

you know of professors, economist, political activities, students, >universities

or organizations that would be interested in helping us >crack this kali yuga

code of silence? In finding the true cost of vices, >we will find Ravana's

hidden kingdom. ROOPA is the bridge for Rama to >walk in his rescue of Laksmi

who has been held captive in the kingdom of >evil for so long. All those

wishing to do something for Lord Rama, I >say, lets help him recapture His

Goddess of Fortune from the shackles of >these asura's ov vice. Then we can

reestablish the kingdom of Raja Rama. > >I hope this helps to redirects the

dialogue to the ways of devotion >rather then political maneuvering. I have

some ideas how we may >introduce these points into the Sri Rama debate--should

you be >interested to pursue this more. > >PS >(Manjari from Settle offered

these moving comments. 'Let's not forget >that Hiranyakasipu was actually a

devotee. It was the will of the Lord >that the friction take place between the

devas and asuras in order to >create a situation that required a new form of

the Lord--Nsringadev. We >would not have Lord Nrsiagadev without Hirayankasipu

and the friction he >caused. In fact, only a devotee like Hiranyakashp could

cause such >friction that would offer us Lord Nrisinga's appearance. This was

the >desire of Nrisinga and so created the setting that would allow him to

>share a quality that could not be shared in any another situation. >Saying God

is unlimited means every soul having their own name for their >lover--God. That

is unlimited. We can have are own love name for God, >that is what makes God

unlimited. It may in fact to be time for another >forms of God to manifest

therefore creating this situation for his >devotees pleasure in their surrender

of him and his appearence to them?' >I found her perspective interesting. R..) >

> > > > > >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > >On 2/15/01 at 7:04 PM

Ashok Chowgule wrote: > > >Raghunatha Anudasa > > > >Ashok Chowgule.

> > > >15 February 2001 > > > >Dear Raghunathaji, > >Pranam, > > > >Thank you

for your message. Before I respond to the comments that you > >have made on

Shri Rama Janmabhoomi, may I ask you a question? Do you > >see nothing wrong in

having the Babri structure on the place where Shri > >Rama was born? > > > >On

your other issue. I agree with you that man should curb his habit >of >

>excessive indulgences, and the world will be a better place for it - >

>spiritually, socially, and economically. However, your figure of $ 3 >

>million over a life span of 60 years (taking the higher figure) seems >to >

>be excessive. It would come to $ 50,000 per year. Of course, the >basic >

>thrust of your argument does not lose validity even if one were to > >assume

that the figure is $ 300,000. > > > >Namaste. > > > >Ashok Chowgule. > > >

>============================== > >

> > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com