[world-vedic] your question

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Dear Mahesh Raja,

I take great exception to your remarks and quotes regarding

the position of women, which is nothing more than outdated rubbish. I know

plenty who can speculate as well as any philosopher.

 

Things change and these quotes which might have had some mundane purpose in

a different century, millennium or yuga, are now an insult to women, who are

as highly educated and articulate as men. In making such quotes you place

yourself and the Vaishnava community on a footing with the Taliban, who have

taken this argument to the extreme by not allowing women the right to an

education or career.

 

Such statements do not constitute any form of wisdom or insight the Puranas

say there are no Brahmanas in this age, but still we wear the sacred thread.

There is obviously difference, but that does not make women any more sudra's

than we are or less intelligent.

 

As Vedantists all we need to say is that women are pure spirit-souls, just

like men. We are not his body, they are not this body. This is knowledge.

 

Best wishes,

 

Yaduvendu Das

 

 

 

 

 

>"Mahesh Raja" <mahesh.r

>vediculture

><vediculture>, <tim73

>CC: <Vaisnavacouncil>, <vaisnava_synod>,

>"lakshmi" <lakshmi, <Ariel6365, "Rocana"

><rocana, "Gauridas" <Gauri>,

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><WLG

>[world-vedic] Re: your question

>Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:16:32 +0100

>

>

>Dear Tim

>Hare Krishna!

>All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

>Pamho.

>

>Lets approch your question from a different angle:

>You will find that woman as a class are generally more materialistic then

>men and are considered to be in the mode of ignorance. BUT---they are NOT

>neglected. On the contrary few women devotees of Lord Krishna are also

>worshiped eg Kunti devi, gopies. Infact in Kunti could UNDERSTAND that

>Krishna was God whereas other philosophers could NOT.

>

>TQK 3 The Most Intelligent Woman

>

> tatha paramahamsanam

> muninam amalatmanam

> bhakti-yoga-vidhanartham

> katham pasyema hi striyah

>

>You Yourself descend to propagate the transcendental science of devotional

>service unto the hearts of the advanced transcendentalists and mental

>speculators, who are purified by being able to discriminate between matter

>and spirit. How, then, can we women know You perfectly?

> --Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.20

> Even the greatest philosophical speculators cannot have access to the

>region of the Lord. It is said in the Upanisads that the Supreme Truth, the

>Absolute Personality of Godhead, is beyond the range of the thinking power

>of the greatest philosopher. He is unknowable by great learning or by the

>greatest brain. He is knowable only by one who has His mercy. Others may go

>on thinking about Him for years together, yet He is unknowable. This very

>fact is corroborated by the Queen, who is playing the part of an innocent

>woman. WOMEN IN GENERAL ARE UNABLE TO SPECULATE LIKE PHILOSOPHERS, BUT THEY

>ARE BLESSED BY THE LORD BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE AT ONCE IN THE SUPERIORITY AND

>ALMIGHTINESS OF THE LORD, AND THUS THEY OFFER OBEISANCES WITHOUT

>RESERVATION. THE LORD IS SO KIND THAT HE DOES NOT SHOW SPECIAL FAVOR ONLY

>TO

>ONE WHO IS A GREAT PHILOSOPHER. HE KNOWS THE SINCERITY OF PURPOSE. FOR THIS

>REASON ONLY, WOMEN GENERALLY ASSEMBLE IN GREAT NUMBER IN ANY SORT OF

>RELIGIOUS FUNCTION. IN EVERY COUNTRY AND IN EVERY SECT OF RELIGION IT

>APPEARS THAT THE WOMEN ARE MORE INTERESTED THAN THE MEN. THIS SIMPLICITY OF

>ACCEPTANCE OF THE LORD'S AUTHORITY IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN SHOWY INSINCERE

>RELIGIOUS FERVOR.

> Kuntidevi prayed to the Lord very submissively, and this is the symptom

>of a Vaisnava. The Lord, Krsna, had come to Kuntidevi to offer respect to

>her by taking the dust of her feet. Because Krsna considered Kuntidevi His

>aunt, He used to touch her feet. But although Kuntidevi, a great devotee,

>was in such an exalted position, practically on the level of Yasodamayi,

>Krsna's mother, she was so submissive that she prayed, "Krsna, You are

>meant

>to be understood by the paramahamsas, the most advanced transcendentalists,

>but I am a woman, so how can I see You?"

> According to the Vedic system, there are four social divisions

>(catur-varnyam maya srstam). The highest members of the social order are

>the

>brahmanas, those who are intelligent, and then come the ksatriyas (military

>men and administrators), the vaisyas (farmers and businessmen), and finally

>the sudras (ordinary laborers). One's place in this system is determined by

>one's qualities and work (guna-karma). The Bhagavad-gita mentions striyo

>vaisyas tatha sudrah, and the Srimad-Bhagavatam speaks of

>stri-sudra-dvija-bandhunam. According to these references women, sudras,

>and

>dvija-bandhus are considered to belong to the same category. The word

>dvija-bandhu refers to one who is born in an exalted brahmana or ksatriya

>family but who has no qualifications of his own. One's social standing,

>according to the Vedic system, is determined by one's qualifications. This

>is very practical. Suppose a man is born the son of a high-court judge.

>This

>does not mean that he himself is also a high court judge. Yet because one

>happens to take birth in a brahmana family, even if he has no

>qualifications

>and is rascal number one, he claims to be a brahmana, and although his

>qualifications are less than those of a sudra, people accept him as a

>brahmana. This has caused the downfall of the Vedic civilization. The

>brahmanas in India are sometimes very much against my movement because I

>train and accept brahmanas from Europe and America. But we do not care

>about

>their arguments, nor will any other reasonable man. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

>said:

> prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama

> sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama

> "In every town, city, and village of the world, the Krsna consciousness

>movement will be preached." How is it, then, that Europeans and Americans

>will not become brahmanas? In fact, one who comes to Krsna consciousness

>has

>already surpassed brahmanism. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (14.26):

>

> mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena

> bhakti-yogena sevate

> sa gunan samatityaitan

> brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

>

> "One who takes to bhakti-yoga surpasses the modes of material nature

>and

>comes immediately to the transcendental platform [brahma-bhuta]." Not to

>speak of becoming a brahmana, the person who fully engages in bhakti-yoga

>attains the highest transcendental platform.

> The stereotyped, crippled idea that only a person born in a brahmana

>family can become a brahmana has killed Vedic civilization, but now we are

>reviving the correct understanding that the attainment of perfection is

>meant for everyone. In Bhagavad-gita (9.32) Lord Krsna says:

>

> mam hi partha vyapasritya

> ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah

> striyo vaisyas tatha sudras

> te 'pi yanti param gatim

>

> "O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me--though they be lowborn,

>women, vaisyas, or sudras--can approach the supreme destination." Thus

>although women, sudras, and vaisyas are ordinarily considered to belong to

>a

>lower class, when one becomes a devotee he or she goes beyond such

>designations. Women, sudras, and vaisyas are ordinarily regarded as less

>intelligent, but if one takes to Krsna consciousness one is the most

>intelligent, as stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta (krsna yei bhaje sei bada

>catura). And Caitanya Mahaprabhu says:

>

> ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

> guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija

>

> " Among all the living entities wandering throughout the universe, one

>who is very fortunate receives, by the mercy of the spiritual master and

>the

>mercy of Krsna, the seed of devotional service." (Cc. Madhya 19.151) The

>Krsna consciousness movement does not consist of wretched, unfortunate men.

>No. It consists of the most fortunate. One who has taken to Krsna

>consciousness is to be considered the most fortunate because he has found

>the way to act so that his life will be perfect. One who is Krsna conscious

>and discharging his duties nicely is the most fortunate and the most

>perfect. This is humbly stated here by Kuntidevi.

> ALTHOUGH KUNTI HAD THE BODY OF A WOMAN, SHE WAS A DEVOTEE. THEREFORE

>SHE

>WAS NOT LIKE AN ORDINARY UNINTELLIGENT WOMAN. RATHER, SHE WAS THE MOST

>INTELLIGENT, FOR SHE RECOGNIZED KRSNA TO BE THE SUPREME GODHEAD: "HE HAS

>COME TO ME TO OFFER ME RESPECT, MATERIALLY APPEARING TO BE MY NEPHEW, BUT

>HE

>IS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD." THEREFORE IN A PREVIOUS VERSE SHE

>SAID, ALAKSYAM SARVA-BHUTANAM ANTAR BAHIR AVASTHITAM: "YOU ARE NOT SEEN BY

>ORDINARY MEN, ALTHOUGH YOU ARE EVERYWHERE, INSIDE AND OUTSIDE." IN ANOTHER

>VERSE ALSO SHE SAID, NA LAKSYASE MUDHA-DRSA: "FOOLS AND RASCALS CANNOT SEE

>YOU." THIS INDICATES THAT KUNTI SAW HIM. UNLESS SHE WERE ABLE TO SEE KRSNA

>AS HE IS, HOW COULD SHE SAY, NA LAKSYASE MUDHA-DRSA? SHE ALSO SAID,

>PRAKRTEH

>PARAM: "YOU ARE TRANSCENDENTAL TO THIS MATERIAL CREATION."

> Now here also, in this verse, Kunti continues to express herself with

>humility. This humility is very good in devotional service. Therefore Sri

>Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches us, trnad api sunicena taror api

>sahisnuna: "One should be more tolerant than the tree and humbler than the

>grass to make progress in spiritual life." This is necessary because for

>one

>who is living in this material world there will be so many disturbances,

>just as if one were traveling on the ocean. One cannot expect a very

>peaceful situation on the ocean; even a big ship may also be unsteady, and

>at any moment there may be tumultuous waves. Similarly, in this material

>world we should always expect danger; one cannot expect a very peaceful

>life

>within this material world. The sastra, the Vedic literature, says, padam

>padam yad vipadam (Bhag. 10.14.58): at every step there is danger. But if

>one becomes a devotee, then one can escape (mayam etam taranti te).

> If one takes to Krsna consciousness, in the beginning there will be

>many

>disturbances caused by Maya, the material energy of illusion. Maya will

>test

>us to see how firmly we are fixed in Krsna consciousness. Because she is

>also an agent of Krsna, she does not allow anyone the freedom to disturb

>Krsna. Therefore she tests very rigidly to see whether we have taken to

>Krsna consciousness to disturb Krsna or are actually serious. That is

>Maya's

>business. So in the beginning there will be tests by Maya, and we shall

>feel

>so many disturbances while making progress in Krsna consciousness. But if

>we

>follow the rules and regulations and chant regularly as prescribed, then we

>shall remain steady. If we neglect these principles, Maya will capture us

>immediately. Maya is always ready. We are in the ocean, and at any moment

>we

>may be disturbed. Therefore one who is not disturbed at all is called

>paramahamsa.

> KUNTIDEVI THEREFORE SAYS, TATHA PARAMAHAMSANAM: "YOU ARE MEANT TO BE

>UNDERSTOOD BY THE PARAMAHAMSAS." THE WORD PARAMA MEANS "ULTIMATE," AND

>HAMSA

>MEANS "SWAN." SO PARAMAHAMSA MEANS "THE PERFECT SWAN." IF WE GIVE A SWAN

>MILK MIXED WITH WATER, THE SWAN WILL TAKE THE MILK AND LEAVE ASIDE THE

>WATER. SIMILARLY, THIS MATERIAL WORLD IS MADE OF TWO NATURES--THE INFERIOR

>NATURE AND THE SUPERIOR NATURE. THE SUPERIOR NATURE MEANS SPIRITUAL LIFE,

>AND THE INFERIOR NATURE IS MATERIAL LIFE. THUS A PERSON WHO GIVES UP THE

>MATERIAL PART OF THIS WORLD AND TAKES ONLY THE SPIRITUAL PART IS CALLED

>PARAMAHAMSA.

> One should know that the activities of the body are due to the soul

>within the body. That is the real fact. The body is only the outward

>covering. Similarly, one should know that Krsna is the real center of all

>activities, and one who knows this is a paramahamsa. Thus bhakti-yoga is

>for

>the paramahamsa, one who knows that Krsna is the central fact. Krsna says

>in

>Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: "I am the

>source of everything; everything emanates from Me." So one who knows, not

>only theoretically but practically, that Krsna is the cause of all

>causes--one who is convinced of this--is a paramahamsa.

> KUNTIDEVI SAYS, "YOU ARE MEANT FOR THE PARAMAHAMSAS, NOT FOR THE

>RASCALS

>AND FOOLS. YOU ARE MEANT FOR THE PARAMAHAMSAS AND MUNIS." THE WORD MUNINAM

>REFERS TO THOSE WHO ARE THOUGHTFUL OR TO MENTAL SPECULATORS, AND THE WORD

>AMALATMANAM REFERS TO ONE WHO HAS NO DIRTY THINGS IN HIS HEART. THE HEART

>OF

>A MATERIALISTIC PERSON IS FULL OF DIRTY THINGS. WHAT ARE THOSE DIRTY

>THINGS?

>LUST AND GREED. ALL MATERIALISTIC PERSONS ARE LUSTY AND GREEDY, AND

>THEREFORE THEIR HEARTS ARE UNDERSTOOD TO BE FULL OF DIRTY THINGS, BUT

>AMALATMANAM REFERS TO THOSE WHO ARE FREED FROM THESE TWO CONTAMINATIONS.

> Bhakti-yoga is meant for those whose hearts are cleansed, not for the

>lusty and greedy. Of course, those who are lusty and greedy may try to

>advance, and gradually they may do so, but once one is situated in

>bhakti-yoga there is no more lust or greed. Viraktir anyatra ca (Bhag.

>11.2.42). This is the test--when one is free from lusty desires and greed,

>then he is situated in bhakti-yoga and is actually a paramahamsa. Kuntidevi

>humbly submits, "You are meant for the paramahamsas and munis, those who

>are

>cleansed in heart and are engaged in bhakti-yoga. But what are we? We are

>simply women. We are in a lower class. How can we understand You?" Although

>she understands everything, she still takes the position of an ordinary

>woman and says, "How can I understand You?" This is humility.

>

>Hoping this has solved your question.

>ys mahesh

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

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