[world-vedic] Prabhupada on Hermaphrodites at Caitanya's Birth

[Guest guest]

(All glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

Dear Amara das,

Thank you for the vani from Srila Prabhupada. The reference would be

considered one sighting

because it is from one source, a conversation. Plural would indicate that you

sent more than one

occurrence from the recorded archives.

My comments are in parenthesis and large letters.)

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/10/02 9:05:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

bhaktatraveler writes:

 

<<

Tritiya-prakriti: People of the Third SexIn vediculture, "Caturbahu dasa

Bhakti "

bhaktatraveler wrote:

 

>You say intersex was in the pastimes of Lord Caitanya and considered

auspicious. I would like

to read from Srila Prabhupada's vani about it if you can give references.

 

Here are the references:

 

Appendix 2

Tape #67-002 San Francisco 04/05/67

 

SP: (Srila Prabhupada) Jagannatha Misra is father. He was… whatever money and

cloth and gold

and silver… they were coming… he was also distributing to poor man, some

dancers. In India there

is a system… what do you call the eunuchs? Those who are neither male or

female? What do you

call them? What is their name?

 

HD: (Hayagriva dasa) A combination of both?

 

SP: Yes.

 

HD: Male and female? Hermaphrodite.

 

SP: Eunuchs? What is the eunuch?

 

HD: Eunuch. A eunuch is a …

 

SP: Tell me that.

 

HD: Impotent… someone who’s been castrated.

 

SP: Oh. That is called a eunuch.

 

HD: Eunuch.

 

SP: Rather, by nature, neither man nor woman.

 

HD: Oh. This is also called asexual. That is to say, no sex.

 

SP: No sex?

 

HD: Hermaphrodite means they have the physical characteristics of both man and

woman.

 

SP: Oh? At the same time?

 

HD: At the same time.

 

SP: I do not know exactly, is, that whenever there is some good occasion…

marriage or

childbirth, like that, so, they go there and pray to God that this child may be

very long-living.

In this way they make some prayer and get some…

 

HD: These people. Now, I don’t understand…

 

SP: …Yes. Saci devi is the mother of Lord Caitanya. She is sitting with the

child. And

everyone is greeting and visiting and everyone is saying, “Oh! Look how nice a

child He is!”

 

HD: And these “asexual” people?

 

SP: They are dancing.

 

HD: They are dancing.

 

SP: Yes. They are chanting Hare Krsna. Like that. So. Hare Krsna dancing

is going there and

visitors are coming and presenting very nice things. Yes.

 

 

 

These are all direct quotes from Srila Prabhupada. Since Srila Prabhupada

himself admits that he

"does not know exactly..." about the nature of the third-sex 'eunuchs,' he

obviously does not

consider himself an expert on the subject and therefore neither should we assume

that he is.

 

 

CB. (One quote, thank you. He doesn't say eunuchs and homosex are synonymous, by

the absents of

any third sex terminology that would distinguish a definition that included

homosex. His admission

of little expertise is indicated to mean nomenclature, not necessarily

definition or occupation

and social position. He is clear on definition and at no time includes homosex.

He later expertly

says "I do not know exactly, but such people, they have their own society, and

their means of

livelihood." He may not know expertly or in detail about these people but he

knows their social

location and authoritatively, directly indicates that they are out side of DVD

with this

statement! Even a child can understand.)

 

 

 

All research, documentaries and studies about the third-sex eunuchs of India

reveal that they are

mostly homosexual and transgendered by nature, with some intersexed members.

The system of

castration was only introduced by the Muslims and is not a traditional Vedic

practice.

 

 

CB. (From con. 75081rc.no

 

Nityananda: The general public objects to that... It's very...

Prabhupada: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own

public here. So

pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and

topless dance,

bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give

any importance to

this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no

ideals of life.

They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mudhas, they

have been described,

mudhas. You know the meaning of mudha?

Devotee (1): Ass.

Prabhupada: Ass. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah paramam mama.

 

Srila Prabhupada also states that because the modes of nature are working we

will agree

voluntarily to act by her dictates. So by nature you can go to hell. We have

choice even if we are

hemmed in by predisposition. If we chose wrong, it is wrong even if we by nature

feel the need.

Nature is trying to trick you, to keep you entangled. And you fell for it.

And what exactly does castration have to do with homosex? Because of

castration now he is

homosex? Condemned further by physical circumstance? Talk about blind following

of an absurd idea.

By nature you can go to hell and that makes it OK? Plus they are brahmanas and

sannyasis? Srila

Prabhupada accepted reformed persons and if they fell back then

 

Letters 75-05-26

 

Letter to: Lalitananda

--

Hawaii

26 May, 1975

 

My Dear Lalitananda dasa,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated May

13rd, 1975 and have

noted the contents. I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not

help you advance

in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your

advancement. I do not know

why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to

render whatever

service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition

Krishna, being

pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You

should stop this

homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in

spiritual life are

nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are.

I hope this meets you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami)

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada states that such "eunuchs" (a term he was not satisfied with)

were welcomed in

Vedic culture and invited to dance and bestow blessings at auspicious

ceremonies. Although Srila

Prabhupada condemns "homosex" in other places as a sinful and unnatural practice

for ordinary men

and women (heterosexuals), I have never heard him condemn people who were

third-sexed by nature

(i.e. homosexuals, transgenders and intersexed). Rather, his favorable quotes

about the

third-sex dancers of India and his kind treatment towards openly practicing

homosexuals like Allen

Ginsberg indicate otherwise.

 

 

CB. (He may have not been satisfied with the term but he understood what he was

trying to define.

Not "in" Vedic culture as in DVD but "in" as aloud to associate at specific

times under guide

lines, "but such people, they have their own society, and their means of

livelihood " Also there

is nothing here to indicate that these people were auspicious. They came to make

money by

entertainment. That they chanted Hare Krsna as their service to Lord Caitanya at

a time of great

festivities does not make them inherently auspicious by nature and is not stated

as such. They are

said to be "dancers" so in this congregation they chanted Hare Krsna and in the

next engagement

they will sing nice folk songs maybe. Again your Bhakti Ananda is reaching.

Were does Srila Prabhupada make such a distinction as "third-sexed"? He is

describing a physical

anomaly, not natural disposition. Not here, that is for sure! Neither is homosex

directly

addressed nor is it alluded to ever by minimal verbal gesture. It is you who

would like to mix

these new age garbage labels to minimize the fact that homosex is sinful. You

have not proved a

concession by definition, only by speculation.

I will accept though for augments sake that third-sex is a viable

interpretation and include

your understanding homosex as part. Still not inside Vedic culture, only in a

removed position, at

specific times for occasion to worship the Lord. Otherwise Srila Prabhupada is

specific about

"but such people, they have their own society, and their means of livelihood ."

This is quite clear, easily understood. If you would look at anything I wrote

on this subject

you can see that I have not said they could not participate in the chanting, not

that they are

refuse opportunity for interfacial service to society, as Srila Prabhupada

verifies for us here is

the right siddhanta. But there are restrictions and regulations to be observed

in our ISKCON if we

are to call ourselves disciple of Prabhupada and Krsna.

As for Ginsberg, Prabhupada treated Ginsberg nice but did not approve of his

proclivities,

especially not the fact that he was expounding homosex to the public as a

prophet and was proud of

it.

 

CON. 770714rc.vrn

 

Prabhupada: The hippies are nothing but a group of madmen, that's all. A madman,

they..., means

publicly sex, that's all. This Allen Ginsberg's movement is that, homosex,

public sex. Ginsberg

was very proud that he had introduced homosex. He was telling me.

Tamala Krsna: He was telling you?

Prabhupada: When he first came to me he was very proud: "I have introduced

homosex." He thought

very brilliant work it was. And another man, what is that? He's put into jail.

 

Prabhupada may have been polite in a meeting, but then again he was a perfect

gentleman. He

obviously did not like his views about homosex though.

 

 

 

Of course, Srila Prabhupada encouraged everyone to practice celibacy and

renounce all material

sex life, but it is unfair of you to misapply his quotes in order to

specifically "demonize" gay,

transgendered, or intersexed devotees and people. Your hollow invitation for

them to come and

chant is useless if you insist on viewing such people from a condescending and

condemning

platform.

 

CB. (Well, you know that is just it, I did not miss apply, you did. I only said

homosex, you

included all the rest. They are not in Vedic society. By saying that, are you

considering that

this is a condescending statement? So be it, get over it or stop your sodomy.

You still have as of

yet to show a positive statement from Srila Prabhupada indicating a plausible

side or aspect to

homosex!!!

This quote you sent does not include any mention of homosex, just because you

would like to

apply a contrive definition to "thrid-sex" and have me and everyone else say "Oh

look at the nice

third-sex people, aren't they cute?" No, homosex is still demoniac and is not

included with those

that are born with some form of physically deformed genitalia and no physical

sexual

determination. Or those who are castrated. I would conceder these other persons

higher by

definition

As far as condescending and condemning, you do that yourself. And? My job or

service is social

arrangement, so far I cannot see where I was wrong in my siddhanta on the

subject of homosex. You

have not proved your point. If you do not like my tone then rectify at least up

to the fourth

class platform and maybe it will not seam so harsh. But stop crying like a women

distraught by

emotion. If you do the crime you must accept the time. These people are outside

gentlemanly

society and have minimized presents. Some concessionary contact in appropriate

ways as already

defined by your quote. Could be more, but that is as yet to be revealed. For

that I would accept

an appropriate reddition of Mahabharta or Ramadan if Srila Prabhupada has no

more to say in that

direction. Then again who is authorize to give us a good translation and as

Bhakti Ananda states

so much has been changed, how are we to know? The details may take time. But

what Prabhupada says

already is not to be minimized because you found some Purana that satisfies your

hunger for

anises.

 

 

750514mw.per

 

Prabhupada: They are discussing in the university homosex. They are advanced.

Advancement of

education. Just see. They are not even fourth-class men; they are animals,

producing so many

animals, that's all, dogs and hogs. (break) ...in the beginning samah. Samah,

damah--first two

business. Control the sense and keep the mind undisturbed. That is the

beginning. Now they are so

much sexually disturbed, they're discussing about the profit of homosex. Where

is first-class men?

Amogha: They say that homosex keeps the balance of things because...

Prabhupada: Yes, fourth-class man can say anything wrong, bad, but we are not

going to hear of it.

A fourth-class man's philosophy, we will have to waste our time to hear

them--that's not good.

They are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth class has got some

position, but

they are naradhama, the lowest of the mankind. So what is their philosophy, and

who is going to

spoil his time to hear about their philosophy? (break)

 

Now this makes two distinct references to the fact that my siddhanta is on,

will you acquiesce

or continue with your delusional homosex charade?)

 

These misunderstandings and confusions of Srila Prabhupada's statements

concerning "homosex,"

"eunuchs," and gay and lesbian people are simply your own bigoted ideas being

expressed. There

are many devoted and dedicated followers of Srila Prabhupada who do not share

your interpretations

of his statements.

 

 

CB. (I will not agree to include these different natures and anomalies in one

group as you do. In

Krsna's pastimes we see that every move, nuance, gestor, and so on has a distant

name and is not

considered all one. With that in mind I say here also it is not all one because

you have not shown

vani from Srila Prabhupada to prove that either. In the conversation you sight

Prabhupada also

does not support you definition of "third-sex."

I am sorry for those that take poison in place of vani. I have made it a point

from the very

beginning of my life in Krsna consciousness to preach to devotees as Lord Krsna

is very pleased by

that. I try as hard as I can to reach you people but you just continue going out

in left field. I

am very plain spoken and this may at times seem unsuitable for flowery

communication. But I think

you need to reevaluate your position and do some more homework because so far I

am still standing

with true vani and siddhanta as my substance and encouragement.)

 

 

Thank you, Hare Krsna. Caturbahu dasa Bhakti

 

 

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

 

 

 

Amara das

 

GALVA-108

 

(The Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association)

 

http://www.geocities.com/galva108

>>

 

 

 

 

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