Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla

[Guest guest]

Conversation with Prof. Saligram and

Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976,

Washington, D.C.

 

Dr. Sukla: There are certain hymns in Vedas which are so personal and... And I

don't find anything in Vedas impersonal. As a matter of fact...Prabhupada: No,

no, impersonal there is. Impersonal means negation of this material thing. Neti

neti, "Not this." Impersonal means not this material person. That is impersonal.

Krsna is person, but in order to convince people that He's person but not a

material person, the material things have to be negated. That is Upanisad. Just

to evade the material conception of the Absolute. But ultimately He's person.

Brahmano 'ham pratistha. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-kotisu. These

things are there. So in order to substantiate the Supreme Person as completely

spiritual, the material conception of personality is rejected. That is

impersonal. Nirguna means He has no material qualities. Bhakta-vatsala, Krsna

is bhakta-vatsala. That is not material quality, that is spiritual quality. So

negation of material understanding is impersonal. But when one is fully in

awareness of Krsna, His spiritual identity, then again He's person.Devotee (1):

Srila Prabhupada gave the example this morning that something which is personal

can speak, like Krsna spoke Bhagavad-gita, Krsna's described in Bhagavad-gita

as the Supreme. But we don't have any experience of something impersonal like

the sky speaking to us. So if the Supreme is impersonal, how is it that

Bhagavad-gita is spoken by Him?Dr. Sukla: Mayavadis like Swami Vivekananda, he

questions "Who was Lord Krsna?" Was Krsna King of Dvaraka or anybody else, he

don't know even that.Prabhupada: He's a fool. He does not know, therefore other

does not know. It is not the fact. He's a fool, he does not know.Dr. Sukla: He

does not know. He said that Gita is karma-yoga, and writes volumes and

volumes...Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is his foolishness. Gita is

completely bhakti-yoga. Sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja.

Everything is finished. And what is karma-yoga? What is karma-yoga?Dr. Sukla:

According to these Mayavadis...Prabhupada: Not according, according to

Bhagavad-gita.Dr. Sukla: According to Bhagavad-gita, all the karma should be

done for Krsna consciousness.Prabhupada: For Krsna, yes. So that is

bhakti-yoga. Yat karosi kurusva tad mad-arpanam. That is bhakti. Karma-yoga

means bhakti. That is the difficulty, that these Mayavadis, they have killed

India's Vedic civilization. Now India is atheist. Very tragic position.Dr.

Sukla: What are your plans for India?Prabhupada: We are pushing this Krsna

consciousness. That is being appreciated. It will take some time. Because so

much mischievous activities have been done by the Mayavadis, to counteract, it

will take some time. They are simply mischievous. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has

rejected them. Mayavadi bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. If one takes the

Mayavadi version of the sastras, then his spiritual life is finished. He

becomes atheist. His spiritual life is finished. Now what is the contribution?

You talked about Vivekananda, what is his contribution?Dr. Sukla:

Nothing.Prabhupada: Nothing. Simply he has taught the sannyasis to eat meat.

That is his contribution. He says there is no harm eating meat. This is going

on. Narayana has become daridra. Daridra-narayana, these are Vivekananda's

contribution. And spoiled India's spiritual tradition. He has created one

illiterate priest as God. That is his contribution, if we become honest to

understand. So it will take some time to counteract all these mischievous

activity. Simply mischievous.Devotee (1): How is it that these men are so

attractive to the Indian people?Prabhupada: They have become fools. Fool's

paradise, they have been made.Dr. Sukla: Because Vivekananda became very

popular in America, and...Pusta Krsna: Who became popular in America?Dr. Sukla:

Vivekananda.Pusta Krsna: No he didn't. That's just propaganda.Dr. Sukla: That's

propaganda, yes, but...Pusta Krsna: :I never heard of Vivekananda until I went

to Bengal.Devotee (1): The Vedanta Society was formed...Prabhupada: No, no, the

other day we spoke that... Now in Vrndavana, you know we have got our temple. So

the Ramakrishna Mission, they have got their temple also. In our temple,

thousands and thousands of these Americans came, and not a single one went

here. If they had preached anything, then why these American boys and girls are

not interested, "Let us see where the Ramakrishna Mission stays." They do not

know even. There are many present here who went to Vrndavana, and none of them

were interested to see. Why? lf there was any propaganda... This is practical

proof. Why none of them were interested, "Oh, here is also Ramakrishna Mandir,

let us go here"? Nobody. Is it practical?Guest: Yes, of course. Of course, even

in India I don't think Vivekananda is that popular.Dr. Sukla: Within one period,

people who probably just had no good books to read, and they got some of his

writings. I know my father brought some books and...Prabhupada: So where is

your home?Dr. Sukla: It's in Benares, Kasi. So there were some books by

Vivekananda, and he is emotionally against Vivekananda, so that's a little too

much perhaps. So he brought those books so that I can read them, I was curious.

And he said, "When you are through, give it to your cook." (laughter) That's the

only functional use of those books.Prabhupada: For burning it in the fire?Dr.

Sukla: Yes, he said so that we can make our chapatis, to have some use of those

things. And Krsna, of course, there's hardly a village in India where, whether

knowingly or unknowingly, people are not aware what is Krsna.Prabhupada: :In

India they know, everyone. They observe Janmastami.Dr. Sukla: Krsna param

bhajami. In India everybody knows Krsna, even the illiterate person, but nobody

knows Vivekananda. Only a few people, they started a Vedanta Society. Of course

Veda is a very serious literature, it's not just anybody can get into that,

it's a very, it's a disciplic...Prabhupada: Brahma-sutra-padais caiva

hetumadbhir viniscitaih. Very.... Nyaya-prasthana. But Vedanta-sutra is

explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Therefore our Gaudiya Vaisnavas, they did not

write any comment on the Vedanta-sutra. They accept Srimad-Bhagavatam is the

real bhasya. But when the Gaudiya-Vaisnavas are challenged that "You have no

Vedanta-sutra-bhasya, therefore you cannot be accepted as transcendental

party," so Baladeva Vidyabhusana immediately gave Govinda-bhasya on Vedanta.

Our Gosvamis, they did not write because they knew Brahma-sutra bhasya,

Srimad-Bhagavatam.Indian devotee: Srila Prabhupada, I was also a victim of this

Vivekananda philosophy for a long time, and my father was very

against.Prabhupada: What is the philosophy?Indian devotee: There is no

philosophy, but it was amusing... My father all the time was telling me to do

some devotional service, I was... No, if I would not do it, I would not get my

breakfast. So I had to do it. But now you have your books and...Indian woman:

Srila Prabhupada, I read Ramakrishna when I was fifteen years old, and I became

so restless and anxious for guru, and I began to concentrate so much, and I

become so God conscious. But I don't know what happened to me by reading

Ramakrishna, and I gave up my (indistinct). I don't know what's wrong with

me.Prabhupada: Eh? (devotees laugh) What is the question?Pusta Krsna: The

question is that she was so much inspired when she was very young, she read

some words by Ramakrishna.Prabhupada: What was the particular thing?Pusta

Krsna: Then she started looking for guru. She became very aware of the need for

guru.Indian woman: That's why I found you. (laughter)Pusta Krsna: Many of us who

have similar experiences like that. Naturally, we weren't always so fortunate

that we first came in contact with Prabhupada's books or his disciples. But

somehow or another we weren't satisfied by anything, because there was some

gap, some void, some missing information that didn't satisfy us.Prabhupada:

Which portion appealed to you in Ramakrishna's life? Which portion?Indian

woman: (indistinct) When he used to be married he wrote some songs, he used to

practice to sing, he used to chant and he used to cry.Dr. Sukla: Of course,

first we were talking about Vivekananda, not Ramakrishna. They are two

different personalities and two different paths.Indian woman: Yes, but I

thought Ramakrishna... Many times I get devotees who say to me, "Oh, he's a

rascal." I say, "I don't know, I can't say rascal." I don't read him, but he

inspired me so much. And I don't know what's wrong. Am I wrong

or...?Prabhupada: Now what is the philosophy of Ramakrishna?Indian woman: He

does not say that Krsna is God. (indistinct) and I was very young at that

time.Prabhupada: If you want to discuss, there is points of discussion.

(laughs) Yes. He worshiped Kali, is it not? Everyone knows it. Do you know

that? And by worshiping he became God. Do you agree to that?Dr. Sukla: No. He

said, "I'm Rama and Krsna both."Prabhupada: But he realized by worshiping Kali.

(laughter)Devotee: ...he dressed up as Radharani too.Prabhupada: So do you agree

to that? Then how you appreciate it? Indian woman: No, I don't appreciate

it.Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is a common sense. He, later on, he became God,

by worshiping Kali, is it not?Dr. Sukla: He was cursed by Kali.Prabhupada: No,

he was a big worshiper of Kali. And he was meat-eater also, Ma Kali's prasada,

that unless one eats that prasadam he cannot become a devotee. So this was his

position, that he worshiped Kali, and later on by worshiping Kali... His

picture is there, mother Kali's embracing. And he also preached yata mata tata

pat: "Whatever path you take, accept, that is all right." Is it not? So do you

think it is all right? He worshiped Kali and he said yata mata tata pat. You

agree to this? Now, Ramakrishna says yata mata tata pat. And Krsna says... He

became Ramakrishna, identifying himself with Krsna. And Krsna said mam ekam,

and now he's becoming Krsna, he says yata mata tata pat. Just see. When he's

actual Krsna, he says mam ekam, and when he became imitation Krsna, he says

yata mata tata pat. Krsna has changed his views. (laughter) Just see, this

foolishness is going on.Dr. Sukla: Well, it's documented that he was kind of

deranged, of a deranged mind. (laughter)Prabhupada: Yes, that is the proof.Dr.

Sukla: Yes, because he was, when he was thirteen or seventeen he was walking,

he was going from one village to another village through the paddy fields, and

the clouds were very thick and thunder and lightning, and he writes that he saw

Kali, and I have a friend in England, Carl Wilson, who has done some work on

Ramakrishna, he believes that at that very moment...Prabhupada: These are

miracles, that's all. lt has no value. People are after miracles. So in the

Bhagavad-gita it is said kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajante 'nya-devatah.

Those who are worshipers of other demigods, they are hrta-jnanah. Hrta-jnanah.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his comment, hrta-jnanah nasta

buddhayah, one who has lost his intelligence. So by worshiping the demigod Kali

he is to be considered as hrta-jnanah, one who has lost his intelligence--and he

becomes God. Is it possible? One who has lost his intelligence, he becomes God.

With that lost intelligence. And this is the proof that on account of lost

intelligence, he says yata mata tata pat. Krsna says mam ekam. Sarva dharman

parityajya. And when he became Ramakrishna, same Krsna is speaking, yata mata

tata pat. So he has changed his view. We have to accept this? And how he gave

up his wife, that's a long history, I don't wish to discuss. We know

everything. So we cannot accept something which is beyond the instruction of

sastra.

 

yah sastra vidhim utsrjya vartate kama

karatah na sa siddhim avapnoti na

sukham na param gatim

 

If you have no knowledge of the sastra, then you'll never be successful in

your spiritual life, what to speak of happiness and liberation. It is not

possible.Indian woman: Is Mirabai Lord Caitanya's disciple?Prabhupada: I'm

talking of this Ramakrishna particularly. There is no sastra siddha. Whimsical,

sentiment, that's all. So far his yata mata tata pat is concerned, at last he

proposed, "Now I shall worship according to the Muhammadan process. So I have

to eat cow's flesh." So he was living in that temple... What is that temple in

Calcutta? Daksinesvari. So the temple was owned by one big zamindar. So because

it is temple, he cannot take... Of course, in that temple Kali was there. So

they are taking fish and flesh. That was not objectionable. But he, when he

wanted to take cow's flesh, so he wanted permission from proprietor, "Sir, I

shall now practice according to Muhammadan system. So I take cow's flesh. So I

want your permission." So he said, "Sir, I've given you so much licenses, but

if you ask this, then I'll ask you to go out. I cannot give you this

permission." Then he stopped Muhammadan way of worship. This is whimsical.Dr.

Sukla: We have another mentally retarded person in India, Sai Baba.Prabhupada:

Yes, magic.Pusta Krsna: We have that newspaper from South Africa.Prabhupada:

Yes. Anyway, we are not after all this magic. We are laymen. We do not want

this magic, neither we want to show magic. We simply, as canvasser of Krsna, we

are preaching Krsna consciousness, "Sir, Krsna says like this, you do like

that," that's all. If you like, you can do; otherwise let us do our own

business. We don't show any magic, neither we speak anything which is not in

the Bhagavad-gita. If there is little success, it is due to this secret, that's

all. (Bengali) Krsna says that He is Supreme, mattah parataram nanyat. So we are

preaching, "Yes, Krsna is the Supreme," that's all.Dr. Sukla: Therefore you are

doing so with tremendous success.Prabhupada: Yes, people say that "Swamiji, you

have done wonder, you have..." so on, so on, so on. But I do not know what is

wonder. I know it is certain that I have not adulterated. That much I know. But

I do not know how to play wonders. That I do not know. But I am certain that I

have not adulterated what Krsna has said. That's all. And I study everything by

the crucial test of Krsna's teaching. That's all. Krsna says:

 

na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante

naradhamah mayayapahrta jnana

asuram bhavam asritah

 

As soon as we see that somebody is not Krsna conscious or Krsna's devotee, I

take them immediately he's a duskrtina, he's a mudha, he's a naradhama. "Oh,

he's educated!" mayayapahrta-jnana. Finish. Our study finish. We take it

immediately that here is a mayayapahrta-jnana. That's all. Asuram bhavam

asritah. Because he denies to accept Krsna, he must be within this group.

Duskrtina, mudha, naradhama, mayayapahrta-jnana. So people will be sorry or

happy, we take them like that, that "Here is a duskrtina," that's all.