Responses to BA Goswami 3

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>[ Jesus ] FRAUDULENT 'ANCIENT SCRIPTURES'

>Bhakti Ananda Goswami [bhakti.eohn (AT) verizon (DOT) net]

> FACT:  ALL OF THE BIBLICAL 'GOSPELS' ARE THEMSELVES REAL ANCIENT SOURCE

WORKS, >WHICH ARE AUTHENTICALLY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE BELIEFS AND TEACHINGS

OF SOME REAL >ANCIENT PEOPLE.  

Yes, we can agree on that. They represent the beliefs of the men who wrote

them, which in turn reflect the beliefs of the very early church, which in

turn was most heavily influenced by Paul. These involved false assumptions.

>JUST BECAUSE THE MODERN SO-CALLED 'GERMAN HIGHER CRITICISM' AND RELATED

>SCHOOLS OF BIBLICAL TEXTUAL CRITICISM (LIKE THE 'SEARCH FOR THE HISTORICAL

>JESUS' JESUS SEMINAR GROUP) REJECT THESE REAL ANCIENT TEXTS AS SOURCES, DOES

>NOT MEAN THAT EVERYONE DOES! 

They don't reject them as sources. They merely realize that the sources of

the Gospels we have, along with writings by 2nd-4th-century chruch fathers,

may not come close to reflecting what the man you know as "Jesus" had

actually taught. Consistent with this, the earliest witness, Paul, has very

little to say about J's ministry and teachings. Instead, he just wanted to

worship the man as being Son of God and a forgiver of sins who had been

resurrected in accordance with the Pharisees' belief in resurrection. The

early church went along with this, because after all the man did show

himself to his disciples more than once in the days and weeks following the

crucifixion.

>IN FACT OVER A BILLION AND A HALF CHRISTIANS DO

>ACCEPT THE GOSPELS AS SOURCES, AND NO CRITIC EVEN TRIES TO CLAIM THAT ANY OF

>THEM ARE MODERN CONCOCTIONS, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL SO WELL ATTESTED EARLY IN

>THE CHRISTIAN ERA !

I would date the Gospels to around 120-130 A.D. However, a transcription of

the Talmud of Jmmanuel reached the Palestinian or Anatolian region roughly

a decade before then. It apparently revived the Gnostic movement, but fell

into the hands of the writer of Matthew. After the Gospel of Matthew had

been formed out of it (out of the Logia = TJ, as I interpret Papias), and

after the writers of Luke/Acts and John had been exposed to the TJ (those

who interpreted the Logia as best they could, according to Papias via

Eusebius), the TJ could not be written about due to its heresies. Or, if

written about, any such writing could not have been allowed by the early

church to survive. But you may need to read the TJ before you could

understand this.

>THE GOSPELS ARE SOURCES WHICH CAN BE STUDIED IN THEIR EARLY LANGUAGES.

But only a couple centuries or more after they were written and

re-transcribed over and over. And in the case of Matthew, we know that it

had been first written in the Hebraic tongue, and only later translated

into Greek. If you think you can study Matthew in its earliest form, you

had better start studying the TJ. Otherwise, you're studying the corruption

that was called the Gospel of Matthew.

>YOU

>ARE TALKING ABOUT COMPARING THE 'TALMUD OF JMMANUEL" WITH THE GOSPELS OF MARK

>AND MATTHEW.  YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THE ARAMAIC "TJ", BUT WE HAVE MARK AND

>MATTHEW IN ANCIENT COPIES IN THEIR ORIGINAL GREEK AND SYRIAC, AND IN THE

>COPTIC LANGUAGE OF THE EGYPTIAN ALEXANDRIAN RITE TOO

Not so. See above.

Your subsequent info about the Sahidic form of the Gospels only shows what

some of the Gospels were like a century or more after the first, major

corruption took place. Text critics have long tried to understand the

earliest family trees of the New Testament texts. That's fine. I'm more

interested in what the man's original teachings and ministry had been

before having been corrupted into a Gospel that could be sanctioned by the

early church.

>WHAT DOES THE "TJ' REVEAL ABOUT ASCLEPIUS ? 

Well, you could always read the TJ and find out. You might come to a

different conclusion than I. Jmmanuel doesn't name any of the Greek gods,

and usually refers to "gods" along with "idols," as in the below:

“Beware of false prophets and scribes who come to you in sheep's

clothing, but inwardly are like ravenous wolves, preaching to you about

submissiveness before shrines, false deities and gods, and preaching

submissiveness to idols and false teachings."

You'll recognize that Matthew has a parallel to this.

<

AND THE WRITINGS OF PLATO ETC. IN THE GREEK TO THE SANSKRIT SCRIPTURES OF

VAISHNAVISM AND HAVE FOUND COUNTLESS COGNATE DEITY AND THEOPHORIC PERSONAL

NAMES AND IMPORTANT RELIGIOUS TERMS.  WHAT DOES THE "TJ" ADD TO THESE

CONNECTIONS? >>

The only explicit reference to an early Greek saying I've noticed in the TJ

is this one:

“Thus, they [humans] will also lose sight of the principle of the oldest

wisdom, which states that humans are the measure of all things in life because

they are, after all, a part of Creation."

Regarding Notovitch et al.,

<

WHAT YOU ARE LEAVING OUT OF YOUR ENTIRE PRESENTATION IS THAT THESE INVOLVED

PERSONS ALL FORMED THE NUCLEUS OF A SMALL ENDURING GLOBAL SUBCULTURE.

RAMAKRISHNA / ADVAITA VEDANTA SOCIETY MEMBERS, SELF-REALIZATION FELLOWSHIP

MEMBERS, THE SHANKARACARYA, NOTOVITCH AND OTHERS INVOLVED WITH NOTOVITCH

AND THE JESUS STORIES, WERE ALL MAYAVADIS AND HAD TIES TO WESTERN

ESOTERICISM.   IT IS NOT UNREASONABLE TO WANT CONFIRMATION COMING FROM

OUTSIDE THIS CIRCLE OF ASSOCIATIONS, WHERE THE THOUGHT SYSTEM IS

CONTINUALLY REINFORCED BY ALL THE POSSIBLY CONSPIRATORIAL MEMBERS. >>

It's evident that no matter what evidence, however firm, is brought to your

attention regarding the Lost Years evidence, or regarding the TJ, the

person(s) bringing it to your attention, if they treat it seriously, will

be placed by you into some misguided subculture category. So in keeping

with the following TJ verses:

TJ 19:18-20. [speaking to his disciples:] “If your neighbor does not listen

and continues to be enslaved by a lack of understanding, leave that person

be, for they are not worthy of your teaching, once you have done everything

possible. It is better to let an unreasonable person walk on the path of

misery than to bring entanglements to one's own consciousness. Truly, I say

to you, the heavens will collapse before an unreasonable person can be

taught reason; therefore, beware of such persons."

you may have the last word on these topics in this exchange, Bhakti.

  Jim Deardorff

  http://www.tjresearch.info