Western Failure to Face Reality?

[Guest guest]

A suggestion for the debate of Aryan invasion theory. Returning to

the Puranas.

By Horacio Fco. Arganis J. Graduade Student in Liguistic and

Literature in U A de C.

 

The research Klaus Klostermaier (Questioning the Aryan Invasion

Theory and Revising Ancient Indian History) wrote:

!

"Tacitus, the classical Roman writer, claimed to have

described past

events and personalities in his works sine ira et studio,

free from

hostility and bias. This motto has guided serious

historians through

the ages, and it became their highest ambition to write

history

'objectively', distancing themselves from opinions held

by

interested parties.

The ideal was not always followed, as we know. We have

seen

twentieth century governments commissioning re-writings

of the

histories of their countries from the standpoint of their

own

ideologies. Like the court-chroniclers of former times,

some

contemporary academic historians wrote unashamedly biased

accounts

of events and redesigned the past accordingly.

When, in the wake of World War II the nations of Asia and

Africa

gained independence, their intellectuals became aware of

the fact

that their histories had been written by representatives

of the

colonial powers which they had opposed. More often than

not they

discovered that all traditional accounts of their own

past had been

brushed aside by the 'official' historians as so much

myth and

fairytale. Often lacking their own academically trained

historians-or worse, only possessing native historians

who had taken

over the views of the colonial masters-the discontent

with existing

histories of their countries expressed itself often in

vernacular

works that lacked the academic credentials necessary to

make an

impact on professional historians."

 

But will be in the correct Klostermaier when affirming that this

passed in the India, in reference to the Puranas? Let us to appeal to

that we discuss in my thesis work:

 

"Since this is one of the medullary parts of the investigation, the

justification will be presented. Because it is important to mention

that this field of the knowledge, denominated the indology, it is not

unified. In fact in the current moment in that this thesis arises, a

strong confrontation exists among the experts, what has created a

series of divergent postures. This way, the width of opinions is

diverse as to make a precise generalization. However, in tentative

form the investigators can be divided in three big groups:

a)The enthusiasts who seek that all the studies of the Westerns

indologist are seen like part of a dominance and suppression

strategy. That is a consequence of looking for self-trust, the

political self-assertion, intellectual and national of the India.

b) The conservative erudites whose reject any tentative of revision

to the paradigm created by the first indologits on the dates of the

texts. And they are reluctant, in visceral form, toward to anyone

that proposes new investigations that place in question this

paradigm, and they categorize to reviser researcher in the same cell

that the group (a) already mentioned.

c) The specialists that take a scientific attitude, neutral, self-

criticic and objective toward the new discoveries and they commit

with the facts and the revision, with the hope of opening new

horizons in the search of more discoveries that they allow the

advance of the knowledge.

 

The specialists of the categories (a) and (b), often they are

attacked mutually with denigrants and corrosive words. By way of

painting a brave and ridiculous square of their opponents, without

not even to grant the most minimum value to who question them. But

like Norvin Hein wrote: "Ultimatly, the competitors need one of the

other one... Those (a)... they are most attentive people in the works

of the academics (b), with a closet revision of their writings and,

as such, it would be said, that¨{(a) and (b)} they are as the bread

and the butter... Because for the other side, the contribution of the

erudites (b) it is necessary still for the traditionalist ones... to

that which, them (a) they are of the most irritable." 1

For that that without dredging in the punishable aspects of the

colonial legacy , coarse to say that many Western investigators,

although certainly not all, they have confirmed their ability to talk

more objectively about the study topic that those grateful ones

inside the community (a) as reliable spokesmen, and this has created

a real tension. Because it has given to those (b) an autoritarism

fame. The point here is that the Western investigators are not the

antagonistic of the studies of the Hindu literature. In fact, much of

the Western learning about the India, so much today and as in the

past, it has been excellent and invaluable. For that in this part, by

way of making the most objective thing this exploration, the

elementary steps of the methodology of the scientific investigation

will be provided, together with the previous proposals of the experts

on the topic, and the difficulties that face their postulates on the

dates of the work in study…

 

1.1 justification:

The specialists in the history, philosophy and sociology of the

science like I. Lakatos, Musgrave, Quine, Popper, Feyerabend, Saul

Kripke, J. Hitika, Harre, Carl Sagan, etc., they have outlined that

one of the characteristics characteristic of the fields of the

scientific investigation that distinguishes them of the belief

systems, genency or of the seudociences, it is it explored by Thomas

S. Kuhn:

"All scientific work this characterized by some divergences, and in

the heart of the most important episodes in the scientific

development there are gigantic divergences... As these two ways of

thinking (divergences and convergences) they enter inevitably in

conflict, it is inferred that one of the primordial requirements for

the scientific investigation of the best quality, is the capacity to

support a tension that, occasionally, it will become unbearable. In

another part I am studying these points from a perspective but very

historical, emphasizing the importance of the revolutions ' for the

development of the science."

This implies the elementary dynamics that has allowed some

significant advances in the fields of the scientific knowledge, since

the academic study of the language and literature Hindu — indology—it

is a branch of the science, this has to familiarize with a continuous

critical revision of their paradigms. Otherwise, not allowing this

measure, it can generate a problem that was pointed out by Carl

Sagan: "When the possibility is forbidden of making critical

observations and of entering in discussion, she/he is hiding the

truth." In this respect, Gastón Bachelard elucidates the factor from

a perspective causalistic: "When the psychological conditions of the

progress of the science are investigated, you arrives very soon to

the conviction that it is necessary to outline the problem of the

scientific knowledge in terms of obstacles... it is there where we

will show stagnation causes and until of setback, it is there where

we will discern causes of inertia that we will call obstacles

epistemologicals. The empiric thought is clear, immediate,... When

returning on a past of errors, she/he found the truth in a aunthentic

state of intellectual regret. Indeed, it is known against a not well

acquired knowledge or overcoming that... To have access to the

science is to rejuvenate..., it is to accept to an abrupt mutation

that must contradict to a past. So that this step of the cognitive

advance you ends up carrying out, Sagan suggested: "If we want to

determine the truthfulness of a matter we should approach it with

such a big mental opening as it is possible, as well as with full

conscience of our limitations and biases."

 

 

Now then, another brilliant research in this field, Micheal Witzel

from Harvard (ON INDIAN HISTORICAL WRITING.The role of the

Vamçâvalîs ) argued:

 

"It has long been held in modern Indological and in more general and

popular

writing that India has no (sense of) history, and this view has

frequently been

justified by the observation that indigenous historical writing has

been almost

completely absent until fairly recent times.1 This is even maintained

by firmly

nationalistic writers such a R.C.Majumdar: "It is a well-known fact

that with

the single exception of Râjataranginî (History of Kashmir), there is

no

historical text in Sanskrit dealing with the whole or even parts of

India."2

Both contentions are, however, somewhat rash statements, arrived at

by the

prima facie observation that continuous histories or chronicles, such

as first

attempted by Herodotos in the West, are absent in South Asia, while

compiling long historical chronicles has been a tradition kept alive

since

Antiquity in Europe and, to a greater degree, has been ingrained in

East

 

1 See the beginning words of Sir Marc Aurel Stein's introduction to

his translation of the

Râjataranginî: "It has often been said of the India of the Hindus

that it possessed no

history."

2 R.C. Majumdar, The history and culture of the Indian people, The

Vedic Age, Bombay,

(Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan), p. 47; similarly, in the same series, The

Classical Age, p. 131:

"Kashmir alone has the advantage of possessing a written history from

the earliest times." -

When writing such statements he forgot about the well-known

Dîpavamsa, Mahâvamsa and

the many consecutive chronicles of medieval Sri Lanka, treated in the

same volume by D.C.

Sircar, p. 284 sqq. He also forgot, e.g. about Nepalese sources, also

treated in the volume --

by himself, p. 136 sqq., and well known since Bendall's and Sylvain

Levi's studies of Nepal,

 

Nor were the early western Indologists the only ones who stressed the

alleged

ahistorical attitude of the Indians. Already about eight or nine

hundred years

earlier, Albiruni had the same impression when he did his "fieldwork"

in the

Panjab and in neighboring areas that lead to his "India" in 1030 A.D.

He

expresses his frustration with words that - unknowingly - have been

echoed

by many other students of the subcontinent. "Unfortunately the Hindus

do

not pay much attention to the historical order of things, they are

very careless

in relating the chronological succession of their kings, and when

they are

pressed for information and are at a loss, not knowing what to say,

they

invariably take to tale-telling."3

 

2. Legendary history (Purâna).

India possesses, it is true, a class of texts that proclaims to be a

history of the

subcontinent, the Purânas.4 These texts were redacted, and to a large

extent

also composed, by Brahmins over a span of perhaps a thousand years

(in the

first millennium A.D. and partly even later), and long after the

facts they

pretend to describe (i.e. creation up to the Guptas, more or less).

Naturally,

they contain much legendary material and are, even if taken at face

value,

mutually contradictory. It can be shown, and indeed this has been

done to

some extent already,5 that they represent a patchwork of data gleaned

from

other texts, such as the Vedas and the Epics (Mahâbhârata, Râmâyana).

Nevertheless, they have been used uncritically, e.g. by some

historians, such

as R.Thapar, and by modern archaeologists as materials to establish

their

identifications of particular pre-historic cultures."

 

That is a quite objective statement whose meaning would allow us to

take considerable steps in the investigation. Still more, in very

deep form he informs us:

 

3. The idea of genealogical history.

 

It has long been recognized that the Purânas are based on a framework

of a

genealogical nature.6 One would suppose that such genealogies are

basically

3 India, vol. II p. 10-11.

4 And a few others, like Râjatar., Dîpavamsa, etc. see below

5 For example by Renate Soehnen in her lecture at the 6th World

Sanskrit Conference at

Philadelphia 1984, published separately later on. - Cf. also the

Purânic parallels quoted by

Horsch in his book Die vedische Gâtha- and Çlokaliteratur, Bern 1966.

The parallels in the

Mahâbhârata, Râmâyana and in the Puranâs indicate, by their

linguistic form, that they are

dependent on Vedic texts; cf. below, note 8

6 See Pargiter, Ancient Indian Historical Tradition, 1922, repr.

Delhi 1962; see now R.

Thapar, Ancient Indian Social History, Hyderabad 1978

 

sound as they represent the dynastic history of the region in

question. Such a

view is firmly held by Pargiter, see Ancient Indian Historical

Tradition, p.119

sqq. He maintains the superiority of the "ksatriya tradition"

(preserved,

according to him, more or less, in the Mahâbhârata and the Purânas)

above

the Vedic evidence and has failed to recognize that much of the

genealogies

of the Purânas were extracted from the Vedas.7 Consequently, he

maintains

that the Purânic accounts are proved by whatever scraps of evidence

we can

find in the various Vedic texts. It is well known that much of

historical

information in the Vedic texts is contemporaneous and that these text

have

been unaltered for more than 2000 years (and have, in fact,

transmitted word

by word, including the otherwise long lost tonal accents of early

Sanskrit)

while bardic tradition, such as finally recorded in the Mahâbhârata

and the

Purânas was prone to constant re-creation by the reciting poet/bard, -

a

feature that has been well studied in the Homeric and other epics by

M. Parry

and Albert Lord. However, even in this more specific case, it can

easily be

shown that the Purânas have made use of disjuncted bits and pieces in

Vedic

and Epic literature to construct their genealogies. To mention just

the most

obvious case: early priests and Rsis such as Cyavana, Viçvâmitra

(Gâthin/Gâdhi,8 Jahnu) were fit into these genealogies as early

kings, or

Triçanku is made the father of Hariçcandra while he (Çunahçepa,

connected

via his RV hymns with Triçanku) was offered by Hariçcandra as

substitute

for his own son Rohita.

In addition, it can safely be said that virtually no such genealogy,

in India or

elsewhere, is free from tinkering, interpolation etc. Instead, they

have

frequently been used to bolster the claims of minor local chiefs and

kings to a

high rank, and if no such prestigious link was in sight, it has been

manufactured.9 All of this seems to create some problems for R.

Thapar's

idea the general acceptibility of lineage history. Though she admits

that the

genealogies have often been "improved" or tampered with she thinks

the idea

of genealogy is important. This is, as the following deliberations

will again

indicate, certainly correct. But the ancient lineages as reported in

the Epics

and the Purânas just do not work at all. Even if one subsumes that

they were

7 Cf. R. Soehnen's article, mentioned above, and note 5. The process

is visible in a

comparison of Aitareya Brâhmana 7 and 8 and Bhâgavad Purâna, see

below.

8 The texts (such as Bhâg.Pur 9.16.35) still try to gloss over this

well-known fact (see the

Aitareya-Brâhmana 7.17.6 sqq.) by saying that Viçvâmitra at first was

a king called

Viçvaratha, see Pargiter, p.151. - Actually, even these Gâthâs of

this AB section differ in

style (as priestly creation) from others in AB 8.21 sqq. which give

historical facts about

earlier kings, perhaps our earliest surviving specimens of bardic

lore; see author, Studies in

Vedic dialects (forthc.)

9 To give a European example, once I have seen an inscription of the

local duke of

Carinthia, in S. Austria, traced back his origins via Rome to the

Homeric heroes of the Battle

of Troy, in the footsteps of the Roman poet Ovid, who had done the

same for his nation. Cf.

also the origins of the various noble Japanese families in the

Kojiki, and their connections

with the imperial family.

originally based on correct lineage lists, they have been used from

early on,

for "secondary justification" of origin and the social prestige going

with it. We

can witness politically motivated adoptions, both of kings as well as

of

important poets and priests, already in the early Vedic texts. In

fact, they are

reported even from the oldest surviving Indian text, the Rgveda, in

the cases

of some poet's families10 and they are to be suspected in the case of

some

kings.11

Nor is the procedure of tampering with the family line limited to

India. In the

closely related Iranian civilization, Darius and his successors used

the same

principle extensively to secure their claim to the throne of Persia.

They simply

had to be descended from Haxâmaniç, to be Achaemenids. One can also

compare the long lists of early Zoroastrian families in the Avesta.

And we

know such pedigrees from texts such as the Bible (Old testament) and

can

observe to what extremes, the writers of the New Testament had to go

to

show the decent of Jesus from King David, in spite of the fact, that

his father

Joseph is reported, by the same texts, not to have been his actual,

somatic

father... In all civilizations which stress the patrilinear descent

such pedigrees

are of great importance.12

In the Purânas these pedigrees (vamça) have been systematized as to

trace

back every local dynasty of the subcontinent to they mythical Sun

(Sûryavamça) or the Moon (Candravamça) lineages. Even newcomers, such

as the Huns, or the local dynasties of Nepal or Kashmir,

simply 'must' go

back to the beginning of mankind, or, at least to a well known ancient

dynasty. This is what the Nepalese Licchavis (c. 300-750 A.D.) chose

to do:

they are traced, by their very name, back to the contemporaries of the

Buddha, the Licchavis of Vaiçâli,13 and they have simply invented the

necessary link - interestingly not in their oldest surviving

inscription of 467

A.D.,14 but in their chronicle and in their later, official

lineage.15 In the late

Middle Ages, the Later Malla, such as Pratâpa Malla of Kathmandu (in

an

10 Most of the clans belong to the Bhrgu or Aangirasa. The others

tend to get adopted into

these two clans: see the case of Viçvâmitra, RV 3.62.16-18, who

acquires the lore of the

Jamadagnis (themselves adopted by the Bhrgus); or

Çunahotra/Grtsamâda, adopted by the

Bhrgus, though originally an Aangirasa.

11 Such as Trasadasyu who is said to have been a demi-god

(ardhadeva), or later, AB 7,

Viçvâmitra adopts Çunahçepa, the son of the Brahmin Ajîgarta, a the

substitute for King

Hariçcandra Aiksvâkava's son Rohita.

12 The examples, are, of course, legion. One may point to early

Japan, or to a civilization

without script, that of Polynesia, where remarkably similar

genealogies are found in places

as far a part as Hawaii and New Zealand.

13 Just as their contemporaneous (and later medieval) Western

neighbors, the Mallas, did,

with the help of their very name.

14 This points to the local origin (viz. to one in the neighborhood

of the Kathmandu valley,

say in the Terai lowlands) of this dynasty.

15 Paçupatinâth inscr. of Jayadeva II whose reign is attested by

inscriptions, 713-733 A.D.

inscription of NS 778 = 1657/6 A.D.), trace back their origin to the

famous

Karnâtaka king Nândyadeva, who - only according to later tradition,

not yet

contained in the Gopâlarâja-Vamçâvalî (written about NS 509, 1388/9

A.D.),

became a king of Nepal.16

Newcomers can also resort to other tactics: they can claim descent

from one

or the other semi-divine nymph, a Nâginî, - again nothing out of the

way, as

some of the earliest descendants of Manu, the first man, are reported

to have

had nymphs as their mothers (such as Purûravas' son Aayu.) So did the

Kârkotas of Kashmir who took over the country in c. 600 A.D., and so

did

many local dynasties such as those of Bhadrâvakâça, Chota Nagpur,

Manipur,

Bastar, and even the Sâlivahana king of Pratisthâna, the Pallavas, and

especially also in the newly brahmanized countries of South-East

Asia.17 The

genealogies thus frequently serve for the limited purpose of political

 

5. Indian Ideas of history.

Turning to the second question put at the beginning, the absence of a

historical sense in India. This is a more serious charge. And to

defend it by

pointing to the genealogical trend in India history, has, as

indicated above, no

salvatory effect, on the contrary, this scheme is simply based on

traditional

political rights of inheritance. Do the Indians indeed have no

interest in the

changing world around them, as experienced over time? And if so, was

this

always the case? Or was this a product of their alleged "pessimistic"

view of

the world, as some 19th century / early 20th century Indologists

claimed?

The idea of the passage of time is, of course, not absent. Even a

brief look at

the structure of the various Indian languages, ever since Vedic

Sanskrit, could

convince of the contrary. They all have quite involved systems of

expressing

various stages in the past, and thus a whole array of forms relating

to several

past "tenses". Some have alleged, in more recent times, that the

Indians

indeed were not interested in, for example, the historical changes in

their

language(s). This again, is a rather limited view, instigated by the

Brahmanical

interest in the unchangeability (aksara) of Sanskrit. Sanskrit as the

sacred

language, the language of the gods, simply "cannot" change. The gods

speak

the same Sanskrit as we indeed should, nowadays, instead of Prakrit

or Hindi.

Pânini, when using chandas, thus refers to the sacred language, not

to the

laukika Sanskrit of his area and time (bhâsâ). The beginnings of this

attitude

can be seen already in the authors of the Vedic texts. They have put

such

changes as they noticed into a social framework. The language of the

gods

has a socially higher status than that of men. Thus the gods used the

higher,

more correct form râtrîm "the night" while men (and thus the author

of the

text) used râtrim.21 (Linguistically speaking, the gods' form is the

older one).

This attitude towards linguistic changes has been perpetuated in the

Dramas,

where Brahmins and the king speak Sanskrit, but his wife and the

servants

various degrees of (the historically younger) colloquial Middle

Indian Prâkrts.

On the other hand, the Vedic poets were keenly aware of past kings and

dynasties and of their obligation of always creating new songs,

praising gods

and kings. They speak of a new yuga which would follow them... and in

which they want to preserve their poetry (Rgveda 7.87.4) and which

they

indeed did until today, by the chandas - rsi - devatâ scheme latched

on to the

recitation of every hymn. They live in a later yuga already (similar

to the

21 See Maitrâyanî Samhitâ 1.5.12 = ed. L.v. Schroeder, p. 81.3-4

concept known from classical antiquity), and they expect another one

to

follow theirs.

However, was it really important to record the events of the human

past

correctly or were they just variations on the constant theme of a

repetitive

yuga cycle? Time was regarded as cyclical,22 a concept diametrically

opposed

to the linear concept of time we are used to in science. Telling

sequentional

history, was not limited to cultures with a sequential concept of

time, such as

the Hebrew one,23 but also found in others, such as that of Greece,

where

"the father of history" Herodotos, in turn often recalls the example

of

Egyptian records. Such writings of sequential history are, of course,

different

from the Rgvedic concept of creating new songs, of incidental telling

about

former deeds of the gods, of earlier (Sâdhyâh, Pûrve Devâh) and later

gods

(Devâh), of ancient learned persons (pûrve çrotriyâh, VâdhBr.) or of

semihistorical

processes such as the colonization (Brahmanization) of Eastern India

(Videha) under Videgha Mâthava and Gotama Râhûgana (Çatapatha

Brâhmana).

After all these caveats we will see, in the sequel, that such a

sequential view of

history indeed also existed in India. Actually, both views, the

sequential one

and the cyclical one, are not mutually exclusive -- if only a segment

of the

cycle is regarded or described. Sub specie aeternitatis, of course,

time was

regarded as cyclical."

 

This approach are very significant, but there are a class of scholars

very hostiles to the acceptations of Puranas and other vedic text

like history too. If compared the version of Vedic texts inside

themselves, we often find the two at opposites poles. Nevertheless,

scholars have reconstructed various historical periods, which they

theoretically assign to the thousands of unaccounted years. Pioneer

Indilogist Max Mueller devised a system of classifying the Vedic

civilisation into periods called "Chandas, Mantra, Brahman and Sutra

and a number of scholars have concurred. Others have also given their

own divisions as Vedic, Epic, Sutra and Scholastic. Generally, the

high conservative academics base their answers to these questions

upon the historical order in which they believe the Vedic books

appeared. Thus, there has arisen the hypothesis that the Rig-veda

appeared before the Upanisads and the Puranas. As hundreds and

thousands of years passed and the people's attitudes changed,

concluded that around 200 B. C. monotheism arose, with Krishna

deification like Visnu. Handbooks on Vedic history differ on specific

dates.

Epistemological flaws and pollutions in the (b) conservative

scholarship

Although the © objective and liberal modern researchers are more

openly to reviews; the class of conservative scholars, it should be

pointed out for the benefit of members of the public not familiar —in

the sophistry—, that men like them, whose poses as the guardian

of "logic", "reason" and the "scholarship", are sailing on a sinking

ship when they, addle in matters that lie beyond of their limited

paradigm. In fact, the Indology isn't a unified field. Everyone in

this area has his own theory about the history of Vedic literature.

They assume, usually correctly his multiples versions because the

scholar's reputation, for so called probing research and analysis.

When discrepancies become obvious, the scholars usually represent

their own views as the objective picture of Vedic history.

Indeed, Morris Winternetz, one of most respect chronologists, argues

that any attempt to reconstruct the Vedic periods is unscientific. He

wrote:

"The chronology of the history of Indian literature is shrouded in

truly terrifying darkness"...."But every attempt of such a kind is

bound to fail in the present state of knowledge, and the use of

hypothetical dates would only be a delusion, which do more harm that

good". (Cit. for RVL C. III.)

The Dr. Richard L. Thompson, Mathematical researcher write:

"We have discussed the arguments of Pingree, Toomer, and Van der

Waerden (Indologist historians) in detail to show the kind of

foundations that underlie scholarly conclusion about the origins of

Indian astronomy. The main characteristic of these foundations is

that they are composed almost entirely of unsupported assumptions,

unbased interpretations, and imaginary reconstructions. It is

unfortunate, however, that after many scholars have presented

arguments of this type in learned treatises, the arguments accumulate

to produce an imposing stratified deposit of apparently indisputable

authority. In this way, supposedly solid facts are established by

fossilisation of fanciful speculations whose original direction was

determined by scholarly prejudice. Ultimately, these facts are

presented in elemetary texts and popular books, and accepted by faith

by innocent people." (VCC p. 198)

Dr. Hridayananda Goswami, Sanskrit Ph D from Harvard write too:

"...therefore the occasional practice of commentators to force on it

extraneous doctrines often renders the text obscure where it is

bright, esoteric where it is literal, and impersonal where it is

intensely personal...I should note at once that this principle does

nor away with intellectual response to the scriptures. Rather it is a

call for sober practices for understanding, in which we firsts

struggle to comprehend a scriptural message on its own terms, through

careful study of its internal structures of meaning." (K Bg. p21.)

Fallacious examples of evidence rejection

In this part we show some tactic instances of evasion for cloud the

evidences from conservative scholars: C) means my self. B) One

conservative scholar.

c) Here I want to comment that my remark (cited above) about the

name Krishna as found in the Chandogya Upanisad are not only

the view of "the first indologists" but in his highly

acclaimed translation of the Upanisads from the 1990's also accept

that this Krishna is not the Krishna of the epics. After all, so many

people by the name Krishna must have lived in India.

c. But we appointed like false concotion, asseverations like this.

For instance, some scholar said: "In the VI century BC or before,

some compilators, felt the necessity of inserting the Devakiputra

Krishna". Here, the question is, ¿how did he travel to the past for

know the literary necessities (inside of the mind) of unidentified

authors that he never observed?— like the farce of unknown genius

author of Gita—. May be, he can give us the secret formula of past

travels to verify his claims. The Mr. Patrick Olivelle holds, it is a

proof of the how even the modern indology is contamined by the

influence of the speculative concepts from firts indologists

B)Attempts have been made to shif the date earlie the Bhagavata

Purana still by refering to Gaudapada's bhasya on the Uttara Gîta

where he mentions the Bhagavatam, and quotes this work form the verse

10.14.4. But this Gaudapada is supposed to be a later author of the

same name as that of Sankara's grand theacher. On the contrary, it

can be argued that Bhagavatam borrowed words and ideas from the

Mandukyas-Karikas of Guadapada. Plainly speaking, the Bhagavata as of

quotationes for works of Sankara and Gaudapada, has not been

conclusively proved, as Bhagavatam can be said to be borrower from

Gaudapada or both might have quoted from different common source.

C: One of more used sophisms by seudoscience is when you show

literary evidences of Krishna and the Puranic works from srutis and

other sources; the so-called scholars said, "it is doubitive,

interpolated" or make other interpretation like you. Because, besides

from the words jugglery the questions arise: What is the proof of

other Guadapada, for observing this? What this proof that Dvaipayana-

vyasa borrowed from the Karikas of Gaudapada??? What is the proof of

one different source existing in these times? I should accept these

fanciful speculations like absolute truths without any evidences?

This is an oracle. Also we can see, that Gaudapada already mentions

the Srimad-Bhagavatam in his works, therefore I can not understand

your seudoscientific concoctions.

B: Why is considering that passages may be interpolated pseudo-

scholarship? Madhva, one of the Vaisnava acaryas, says very

clearly in his commentary of the Mahabharata (the Mahabharata-

tatparya-nirnaya) that the verses have been interpolated into the

Mahabharata. He says that in some places verses have been

added, and at other places verses have been removed. Madhva

believed the sacred texts to be really indestructible, but he

admitted that they are now mostly altered.

Also, Jiva Gosvamin of the Gaudiya Vaisnava group says in his

Bhagavat-sandarbha that puranas such as the Skanda-purana are

"full of errors."If the Vaisnava acaryas accept that the scriptures

are altered and full of errors, why is it unreasonable that modern

indologists also believe this?

C) The big problem with your argument is, that any of the vaisnavas

acaryas reject the quotes that show the Puranas and Krishna's

mentions in the Vedas. Therefore, if you want accept his opinions,

you can no be arbitrary, and you should accept all his body of

evidence and not only that wich support you whimsical ideas. Also,

let me correct to you, that the acaryas never said that "all the

sastras are full of errors". Jiva Goswami said in the Krishna

sandharba Anuccheda (28. 69): iti siva-sastriyatvac ca natra vaisnava-

siddhanta-viruddhasya tasyopayogah. Yata uktamskanda eva sanmukham

prati sri -sivena. That the Skanda Purana is not like that; but the

Sivaites puranas should be accept only if they are confirmed in the

vaisnava puranas.

You are like one indologist, who was so honest in recognising his

inability to arrived to a conclusion on the topic. And later created

a trinket hypothesis. Where He adulteres the age of Ghata jataka and

the Puranas for He transfers them to the Christian era. This has

been a bogus thing, because the Ghata jataka date of the III century

B.C., and the Puranas are mentioned in the old Upanishads like

Chandogya 7.1.14, Brhat-Aranyaka 2.4.10 and others archaic texts.

B) Certainly the words "purana" and "itihasa" are mentioned in the

two Upanisads you mention. But what is meant by these words in these

texts? We have to consider this carefully, for one of the greatest

scholars and intellectuals of India, Sankara, does not accept that

the words refer to the texts known as Puranas and Itihasas. In his

commentary on Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10. Sankara says,

that "purana" refers to passages such as Taittiriya Upanisad 2.7,

and "itihasa" to stories such as the dialogue between Urvasi and

Pururavas in the Satapatha Brahmana. This is also accepted by the

Mimamsaka School.

C: However, a close observation proof, that your argument is simply a

fanciful interpretation from Sankara and mimansa school, and not in

line with the spirit of the Upanisads verses themselves. At respect,

others of the most serius authorities in this matter, Dr. Thomas

Hopkings, recognized that such hostility upon the evidence of the

puranic literature in the srutis are: "such objections are mere

pedantry..." (RVL p. ix.) And other expert in the Vedic text, Dr.

Michael Witzel from Harvard openly said: "Still, there is some

evidence that there may be ample reason for calling these things

(Puranas) "the fifth Veda". (V p.23) This is probed by a direct

reading in the text. Because, if you know the more elementary

literary preceptive, you can observe that the words are used in

numeration statement, and the other sustantives, like Rig, Yajur,

Atharva and Sama, are sacred books, and the same categorical status

is given to the Puranas and Itihasas. You can read the same fact,

with open eyes, in other sources, like Atharva veda XI.7.24,

Saptapatha Brahman XI. 5,6,8, etc. Therefore, even the late scholar

Rapson admits that, the Puranas have preserved an independient

tradition, which supplements the prestly tradition of the Vedas and

Brahmanas and which goes back to the same period. (CHI, I.902) So, on

the face of such an elaborated record, it is absurd to build up

hypotheses on basis of vague suspicions and unbridled imaginations.

B: In the Ujjvala-nilamani by Rupa Gosvamin there is a reference to a

passage in an appendix of the Rgveda (Rk-parisista) where the

name Radha is mentioned in connection with the name Madhava

(considered a name of Krsna). The passage where Rupa

Gosvamin mentions this is Ujjavala-nilamani 4.4. However, Rupa

Gosvamin seems to ignore the context in which this passage

occurs in the Rk-parisista. This context dictates that Radha is the

constellation Visakha, and Madhava is the month in spring (now

known as Vaisakh) that coincides with that constellation.

C: The Big problem with this argument is the fault of historical

observation. For example, in the other cultures, the constellation of

Taurus is namely because the bull existed before on earth and the men

assigned this name to the constellation. Other instance is the month

of July or August; this months are called by the influences of

Romanic Kings figures. The Egyptians conceive a cocodrile in a

constellations and the Milk Way they called the celestial Nilo river,

and we can observer that there are many alligators in the river Nilo.

Therefore, the names Radha and Madhava might be also the names of a

month in spring and the constellation of Visakha, however, these

objects have been named after the personalities of Radha-Madhava, and

not the contrary. After all, Vishakha is an intimate friend of Radha

in the spiritual realm of Goloka.

Under the approach used previously, let us look the follow part from

Witzel, which is more objective than the examples above-mentioned.

 

6. Actual sources of history and of historical writing.

If we now turn our attention to the actual sources of ancient Indian

history,

we find the following early materials for historical writing.

22 Though the origin of the universe is somewhat shrouded in mystery,

time never began

nor will it ever end: instead, it moves in cycles: The first cycle of

creation of this world and

the following cycles, called yugas, lead up to still later ones

(already hinted at in RV 8.87.4).

-- Just like the yugas follow each other in endless succession, so

behave the sun, the moon

and the stars: the succession of dawn and dusk, day and night, new

moon and full moon, the

3 to 6 seasons of the year, the bright half of the year "when the sun

moves northwards" and

dark half of the year, the return of the new year as such at Winter

solstice, the counterclockwise

turning of the Milky Way around the north pole during the course of

the year, ---

as well as a five year cycle (originally called dyumna, i.e. the

period after which solar and

lunar months can be made to start over again at the same point in

time) all point to the

cyclical nature of time. The dangerous transition points in this

process are clearly marked

by Vedic rituals, as well as the human rites of passage do so, in the

cycle birth, death and

rebirth.

23 The Bible begins with creation by Yahwe, out of nothing, and then

proceeds with

elaborate genealogical lists down to the time of David and later

kings of Israel, and in the

New Testament, of Jesus.

-- In pre-literary times, the bardic and poetical family traditions.

These contain

contemporary, originally Vedic fragments of historical information

(such as

the famous battle of the 1o kings, dâçarâjña), and in the case of the

Epic, a

bardic re-working of events of an already rather distant past.24

Purânic

scholars often take the mentioning of itihâsa and purâna in the late

Vedic

texts as proof of an original, unified Purâna. This, however, goes

against

everything we now know of bardic traditions25 and, ironically, rather

unwittingly regards the ancient bardic Purânic texts through the eyes

of

Brâhmanical or even Vedic traditions, characterized by their fixed

textual

corpus that was no longer altered after the redaction in the first

millennium

B.C.

The old Vedic texts were composed, often by inspired poets who,

nevertheless, worked in the tradition of Indo-Iranian (Aryan) and

even of

Indo-European poetry. They did not only adhere to the metrical forms

of

their tradition but also to well-established kennings or kakekotoba,

stereotyped ends of lines, etc. This has to be taken into account when

studying the historical fragments in the Rgveda. We have to go back

this far

in Indian history as much of the information contained in the RV has

been

taken over, first of all into the later Yajurveda Samhitâs and the

Brâhmanas,

and later on, into the Mahâbhârata and the Purânas. To give just one

example: In the Rgveda, we find a brief reference to a battle of 20

kings,26

and another one to the famous Dâçarâjña, the battle of the ten kings

of the

Five Peoples of the Panjab (Yadu, Turvaça, Anu, Druhyu, Pûru) against

the

Bharata king Sudâs. This is also found in a Brâhmana text such as the

Jaiminîya Brâhmana,27 and has become the core of the Mahâbhârata,

which,

however, does not mention Sudâs at all and instead substitutes the

five

Pândava brothers.28

 

The various Vedic fragments were worked into the new grand design of a

battle between the Kurus of Vedic fame and their relatives, the

Pândava.

These, however, are unknown newcomers to the historical tradition

preceding

the Mahâbhârata; they often were taken as representing the Pañcâlas;

I would

prefer to identify them with the (Iranian?) Salvas who, according to

a still little

24 I will deal with the prehistory of the Mahâbhârata separately.

25 Cf. above, on the studies of Milton Parry and Albert Lord on

Homeric and (living)

South Slave bardic poetry.

26 Only mentioned at RV 1.53.9; this quite isolated mentioning,

nevertheless, indicates by

its very existence that, already by the time of the RV, the 10/20

king's battle was a famous

topic of bardic/poets' lore.

27 JB 3.244-247, ed. and transl. W. Caland, par. 205

28 Other examples in the Vedic texts would include: the crossing of

the Bharatas over the

Sindhu, followed by the Iksvâkus, at JB 3.238. Further, the

historical tradition contained in

the Yajñâgâthâs and Çlokas should be compared; this is easily

accessible now in Horsch,

Die vedische Gâthâ- und Çlokaliteratur, Bern 1966.

read Vedic text, the Jaiminîya Brâhmana 2.208, invaded Kuruksetra and

destroyed the Kuru realm, so that a later text (Brhad-Aaranyaka

Upanisad

3.3.1), can ask about the Kuru kings "where have the Pâriksitas gone?

kva

pâriksitâ abhavan" A. Parpola may not be so far off the track with

his guess

of a new Aryan or Iranian invasion which he, however, tries to trace

down to

South India, to the Pândyas.29 The Rgvedic battle of the 20 Kings,

however,

never re-appears, is completely forgotten in post-Rgvedic history.

The various bardic authors and later redactors thus have reworked

such bits

and pieces of old historical information into the great Epic, which,

as is well

known, was at first a more "modest" text of 20.000 verses, in size

comparable to the combined Iliad and Odyssey. How this reworking took

place can be closely studied if we compare the Rgvedic form of such a

popular tale as that of Purûravas and Urvaçî (RV 10.95), with its

form in the

Çatapatha Brâhmana 11.5.1 or the Baudhâyana Çrautasûtra 18.44, in the

Mahâbhârata 1.70, and in Kâlidâsa's Kâvya. Here, just as in the

treatment of

the major historical fragments we see popular and bardic imagination

at work.

We are, of course well aware of how easily such data get confused in

oral

tradition even after a few generations.30 Thus even if we suppose

that the

pre-Bharata already had many of these traits and maybe still the

original

name of king Sudâs as fighting in the battle, then it could have been

changed

within a few generations to that of this long later

successor/descendant,

Dhrtarâstra Vaicitravîrya, who, interestingly, occurs in somewhat

later Vedic

text, Katha Samhita 10.6, simply as a king of the Kurus.31

The ancient "historical" tradition of India, as found in the

Mahâbhârata and

the Purânas, thus is flawed from the beginnings: It is not history

but the

bardic reworking of an old Epic tradition, often based on Vedic

tradition

itself.32

It is quite misleading to believe the Mahâbhârata account and find

the reason

for the destruction of the Kuru realm in a flood washing away its

capital at

29 On the Jaiminîya and Vâdhûla traditions of South India and the

Pându/Pândava problem,

Studia Orientalia 55, 1985, 429-468.

30 Compare, e.g. the historically well known case of the Gothic king

Theoderic of Ravenna

(Italy was invaded by the Goths after 454 A.D.), who was confused in

Germanic bardic lore

with Ermanric, his ancestor who still was a king of the Goths when

these lived in Southern

Russia and were invaded by the Huns (375 A.D.).

31 Undergoing some harassment by the Naimisya vrâtyas.

32 The parallels provided by Horsch (Die vedische Gâthâ- und

Çlokaliteratur, Bern 1966)

clearly indicate that the Epic and Purânic texts were based on the

Vedic ones, cf. for

example such evident cases as the substitution of a Vedic verb form

AB 7.18.3 vayam

smasi by BhâgPur 9.16.35b vayam sma hi (Horsch p. 95); Horsch

concludes that

BhâgPur. is based on AB, via oral tradition; Râm. 1.62.1 differs. --

Similarly, cf. AB

8.21.14 sqq., with parallels in Mbhâr., BhâgP., ViP., MârkP, etc.,

see Horsch p. 101 sqq.

"these Gâthâs were transmitted orally and expanded." -- Cf. also the

parallels in ÇB

13.5.4.3 sqq. and in the Epic.

 

Hastinapura when Vedic texts tell of a contemporaneous invasion of

Salva

tribe which effected it - much more plausibly. Little value can be

put on these

Epic and Purânic data,-- at least, they should not be taken at face

value but

rather as a general outline of some historical processes.

-- Another, and indeed the major source for Indian history used since

the mid

of the last century, have been the thousands of inscriptions on rocks

and

copper plates. They are so well known that I merely mention the

category

here. To them, of course, applies the factor, mentioned above, of

hyperbole as

well. In the praçastis, constituting the first, non-technical parts

of inscriptions,

the poets tried to praise the local king "to the heavens".

-- A little used source of history have been the colophons of

manuscripts

which often mention the name of the reigning monarch and other

historically

interesting details. This is due to the fact that in India proper

most mss. are

only of relative late date. Except for the desert areas of

Gujarat/Rajasthan,

mss. have not survived much more than 500 years, and Hindus in

general did

not care much for their preservation as only the living, recited

word, in the

mouth of the teacher, poet or priest was important. Fortunately, the

Jainas33

and Buddhists preserved their texts much better. And so did the

Nepalese.

Here we have mss. going back as far as the early ninth century A.D.

(in dated

form), and a few older undated ones, so much so that when Bendall

first

made use of their colophons for historical purposes at the Berlin

congress

about a hundred years ago,34 he was simply not believed at first. In

Nepal the

temperate climate and the almost complete absence of Muslim

incursions35

worked together to preserve these old mss. Such ms. colophons, which

also

contain much of other valuable and so far unused information, such as

on

local personal and geographical names, religious trends,36 etc.,

should be used

33 The oldest in Indian mss. of the subcontinent, outside of Nepal,

are those of the Jaina

Bhandars of Gujarat and Rajasthan. At Jaisalmer, for example, as my

friend A. Wezler told

me (1974), the mss. are kept in a cave under the temple in large

steel cases that must have

been welded inside the cave as they are bigger than the small

entrance of the room.

34 See the volumes of the Berlin Oriental Congress of 1888.

35 There was only one brief Muslim invasion, in November 1349 A.D.

The Sultan burnt

(Nepâla smasta bhâsmî bhavân) the towns for seven days (GRV fol.28b,

52a). Luckily

enough mss. have survived this and similar destructions (due to

earthquakes and fires). -

Unfortunately the same cannot be said of medieval Kashmir from which

no mss. older than

c. 1500 A.D. remain. Local Hindu and Muslim chroniclers agree in

blaming the reigns of

the Sultans Sikandar and Ali (1389-1419/20) for their wholesale

destruction by burning and

dumping them into the Dal Lake, see author, The Veda in Kashmir, ch.

II (forthcoming).

36 It has not been noticed, that we can date with great accuracy, for

example the sudden

spread of Râma worship in (e.g.) Gujarat and Nepal in the 16th

century by simply studying

the sudden occurrence and spread of Vaisnava names in the colophons.

 

for the elucidation of "dark spots" in the history of particular

local areas and

their political history, say for parts of Orissa, Kerala, and Gujarat.

-- For the more recent history, there also are documents of all

sorts. Again,

the oldest surviving ones come from medieval Nepal where land sale and

mortgage documents dating back even to 982/3 A.D. have remained in the

possession of monasteries and in private ownership.37 The various

archives in

private possession (Râjas, etc.) and in public administration are

still

underutilized.38

-- Other sources include, as is well known, the coins, and more or

less

accidental remarks in literary texts or a few "historical" kâvyas.

The well

known ones among them are Açvaghosa's Buddhacarita or Bâna's

Harsacarita, Vâkpatirâja's Gaudavâho, and immediately preceding

Kalhana,

the Vikramankadevacarita by his compatriot Bilhana, all of which

inspired or

influenced him. Sir M.A. Stein has made a collection of some

expressions

agreeing in the Harsacarita and in Kalhana's Râjataranginî.39 In

addition,

there are such kâvyas as the largely unpublished ones from medieval

Nepal

(see below). Similar kâvyâs come from Râjasthân, some of them going

back

to Chauhan times,40 from 16th century Garhwal,41 or from South

India.42

37 B. Kölver and H. Çâkya, Documents from the Rudravarnamahâvihâra,

(Nepalica), St.

Augustin (VGH Wissenschaftsverlag) 1985

38 For a (not quite complete) listing see the several volumes of:

S.P. Sen, Sources for the

History of India, Calcutta, Inst. of Historical Studies, 1978 sqq. ---

How little understanding

still exists for such materials I once witnessed myself: The old

Hanuman Dhoka palace at

Kathmandu contained a large collection of documents, lying on the

floor in a room of c. 15

x 4 meters, to a height of about a meter. They dated from c. 1830 to

1960 an contained

financial administration but also documents, as I saw, detailing

which officials from all over

the valley should take part in one of the festivals and how much

remuneration they should

get. As the palace was under restoration by UNESCO before the

coronation of the king in

1975, the workmen and women used this strong paper as wrappings to

protect their clothing

or as head cushions for carrying loads, as well as for less

describable purposes. After a

UNESCO specialist and I had drawn the attention of the Director of

Archaeology to this

fact, the documents were carried and trucked away to some unknown

location. They have

not been heard of since and the story is that they have been

destroyed. Only 2000 of them

now are in the Tribhuvan University at Kirtipur/Kathmandu. - Another

collection, of a small

Orissa Râja is said to lie on a verandah of his old palace, open to

termites, rats and rain.

Another similar collection, from Gujarat, is said to have, luckily,

found its way to Europe.

39 See M.A. Stein, transl., Râjataranginî, vol.I, p. 133

40 See G.N. Sharma, Sources for the history of medieval Râjasthân, in

S.P. Sen, Sources

for the History of India, Calcutta, Inst. of Historical Studies)

1970, p. 27 sqq. and cf. his

book, A Bibliography of Medieval Rajasthan, p.61-87

41 Manodaya Kâvya of Bhârata Kavi Jyotirâi, living at the time of

Akbar and Jahangir,

which presents the history of the Panwars as going back to Ajayapâla,

a Candravâmçî king,

but is of much use for the contemporaneous history.

42 A list of the less known or less studied historical Kâvyas has

been made by Ratna Dutta,

in her Calcutta PhD thesis, The development of historical and

literary styles in Sanskrit

inscriptions, (1988), p. 14 sqq. It includes: the Paramâra king

Sindhurâja's

 

-- Finally, there are the foreign accounts (Chinese pilgrims and

diplomats, old

Greek and more recent European travelers; Arab and Persian writers) --

with

all their imperfections and inherent cultural bias, but on the other

hand, their

keen observation of what was new, strange, and exiting to them.

7. Kalhana's Râjataranginî

If we now, after briefly reviewing the para-historical texts and the

various

materials available for a study of Indian history, turn our view to

the major

example of Indian "historical writing", the Râjataranginî of Kalhana,

and then,

some other medieval histories. Even a brief survey at such texts

reveals that

they survive only at the rims of the continent: the Râjataranginî of

Kashmir,

the vamçâvalîs of Nepal, the Dîpavamsa and Mahâvamsa of Çrî Lankâ. The

question may be asked, as it has been from time to time, whether their

composition was due to foreign influences. In the case of Ceylon,

e.g., this can

roundly be denied. It did not take Arab traders to get the Singhalese

interested in composing their many chronicles. The oldest date back

to pre-

B.C. times... As we will see, the situation is not different in other

parts of

South Asia.43

Kalhana, when setting out in mid-11th century, to rewrite and update

the

history of his country, wanted to write a kâvya, and in çânta rasa

(Râjataranginî 1.23). He was probably influenced by the fate of his

family

around 1100 A.D. His father Canpaka had held high office, but was

ousted

after the downfall of king Harsa in 1101 A.D.44 He thus writes

critically

above the kings of the past, even of the reigning Lohara dynasty, but

he had

to be more careful45 with the reigning monarch, Jayasimha, to whom he

devoted about 26% of his work, i.e. 2058 verses of in total 7826

verses. It is

Navasahasânkhacarita, ed. E.S. Islampurkar, (BSS 53), Bombay 1895;

Sandhyâkaranandi's

Râmacarita (Pâla time Bengal); Hemacandra's Kumârapâlacarita (Câlukya

dynasty, ed. BSS

60), Jayanâga's (or Jayanik, reported to be a Kashmirian,)

Prthîvijaya (BSS 69),

Someçvara's Kîrtikaumudi and Surathotsava (Vâghela dynasty, BSS 76);

Jagaducarita,

celebrating a local merchant of Gujarat; the Jain works

Prabhavakacarita of Prabhâcandra

and Sthavîracalicarita which mention many facts about king Bhoja and

the Câlukya king

Bhîma. The list can, of course, be continued, see below, at the end

on medieval Nepalese

Kâvyas.

43 H. Bechert has recently dealt with the beginnings of Indian

historical writing in an article

which is not available to me here, at present.

44 Did he engage in a piece of psychological writing, revenge for his

father? Cf. Stein,

Râjataranginî, tr. I p.17. Note that Kalhana changed his account, see

immediately.

45 See Stein, p. 17 f.: "outspoken manner with which he judges the

king's character...

comparatively few passages in which Kalhana praises Jayasimha...

inserted... possibly with

a view to avoiding denunciation and its probable consequences."

 

little known that Kalhana even changed the text of his account, while

he was

redacting it. An inkling of this was felt already by M.A. Stein who

pointed out

the lack of revision in book 8.46 The earlier version, more critical

of the

king, has indeed survived in a single ms., which has been published in

facsimile;47 it was earlier treated by its former owner, E.

Hultzsch48 who

did, however, not yet notice that this manuscript represents a

different

recension. This was discovered by B. Kölver.49 A detailed study of

this

unique case enable him to judge more competently the working methods

of a

medieval court poet, writing a conventional historical kâvya, even if

he was

not a member of the court, as Kalhana indeed was not. - In addition,

we have

another incidental advantage in judging him, i.e. the study of some

of the

sources he used, as well as an additional source, the

Gopâlarâjavamçâvalî

described below."

 

In fact, it isn't a example of an argument that he tries to dismantle

the validity of his statement "India possesses, it is true, a class

of texts that proclaims to be a history of the subcontinent, the

Purânas." It doesn't fit doubt that "The Rigveda contains to

veritable treasury of information which sheds light on the early

history of the Vedic Aryans, and of the Indo-Europeans ace to whole.

However if we apply the so rigid and closed one criteria that intends

from part of the anti-puranic erudites, under this could reject all

type of historical evidence. Because in fact, the numismatic,

archaeological evidences, etc., they are the only things with it is

counted in the science of the history. This way that under that

type approach, we would have to refuse the whole history. Because,

if would be only the linguistic evidence the only one been worth,

also that I am a linguist , it is good to recognize what other

experts had affirmed, like it was report in my thesis:

 

"The Vedic Age (8). Although the model of dates from Max Müeller has

worked as an useful instrument in the philological studies on this

literature, the fixation of the Vedas texts has been presently moment

a problem far from being resolved. As Wilkins it pointed out it: "as

for the antiquity of the Vedas, anything is not known with certainty.

Without a doubt they count among the oldest productions in the world.

But the date in that they were composed is object of wild

conjectures. Colebrooke seems to deduce from a calendar Vaidick that

have been write previously to the XIX century B C. Some assign them a

more recent date, others an older one. Doctor Haug considers that the

Vedic Age extends from the year 2000 B. C., although he believes that

some of the oldest texts have been compose about 2,400 years B. C.,

Max-Müeller gives like probable dates, from the 1200 B. C. up to the

800 B, C.; for the Brâhmanas of the 800 B. C: at the 600 B. C:, and

the rest of the 600 B. C: at the 200 B. C." For what Piggot informs

like was arrived to those dates: "we have already pointed out the

position of the Rigveda like archetype of that whole series, and the

internal evidence demonstrates clearly that the Sutras is later to

the Brâhamanas and the Upanishads, so that a relationship can settle

down more or less precise among all those works. But even when we end

up finding a chronological mark in which can locate the whole series,

we will continue having very scarce material for their study. The

only fact certain it seems to be that the doctrine preached by Budha

is based essentially on a development of the concepts philosophical

contents in the Upanishads, and all the tests coincide to fix the

death of Budha in one decade the year 500 b. c. at least.

Beyond this date, we don't have left another alternative that the one

of appealing to kind of a philosophical esteem invented by Max

Müeller and generally still accepted, by means of which the Brâhmanas

is attributed a centuries VIII and VII B. C., the last Vedas a

centuries X and IX, and the oldest elements of the Rigveda to the XII

and XI centuries b. c. Max Müeller insisted that those you date they

were only minimum dates, and but it takes there was kind of a tacit

agreement (without a doubt for the influence of the discovery of the

document mitany of toward 1380 with the names of the gods mentioned

in the Rigveda) to date the composition of the Rigveda among the 1500

at the 1400 B. c., but without having for it any conclusive test."

For what the adoption of a paradigm by covenium is denoted, based on

the extrapolation. Because still the supposed proof that it consists

on the date of Budha to the VI B. C., it has been discredited by

Gokhale and other specialists.

Assuming that "it estimates philosophical" what Piggot meant is

rather philological, it becomes indicative. Since the linguistic

methods are advisable and they allow to intrude in several aspects of

the language. For that that if they are used under the appropriate

requirements, they could throw lights on the dates and to contribute

in the advance of this field, as the tentative of the variable 10.

Nevertheless that investigators exist who defend the posture (a)

explained in the introduction that they underestimate and they ignore

the reaches of this methods in order of contradicting the müellerane

paradigm. On the other hand, the erudites of the posture (b) they

overestimate this tentative one and they don't admit an integration

and revision of the restrictive ones of the methods before mentioned.

However, such studies began with the comparative linguistics of

Coeurdoux and Willian Jones in the XVIII century, which solidified

with Franz Boop's positions. Nevertheless, regarding the Vedas, such

postulates they became a debate when comparing them with the

archaeological discoveries as linguist Ward Goddenaugh it pointed out

it. Who he suggests that such interpretations of study of the

language, were arbitrarily compiled in favor of social and political

interests. Other experts as A. B. Keith assures that "taking the

linguistic method literally, one can conclude that the Indo-European

originals knew the butter and not the milk, the snow and the feet but

not the rain and the hands." Winifred Lehmann also insisted in

1971: "Clearly, the paleontologists linguists have been extrapolated

to the point of the elimination... the language [for itself only] it

can not be used like a primary source for the reconstruction of an

old culture." Now then, Morris Swadesh has invented a well-known

method as the glotocronology, which tries to measure the changes of

the languages with spending of the years. However, as the linguists

they have pointed out it like Talk Hockett, such techniques load with

deficiencies that depend on unpredictables supposed. Nevertheless,

we are continuing working in this field, and may be that in the

future these systems will be perfectionates.

Now the conclusions of other investigators will be shown, already

including those mentioned whose discoveries suggest alternative dates

to those of the müellerane paradigm:

 

Pro Aryo invasionista

1) Max Muller was the one of the first ones that rejected the

paradigm: "Either that the Vedic hymns were composed in the 1000 or

1500 or 2000 or 3000 B. C., it is not necessary to be able to on the

earth that ends up him to determine." Similar statements appear in

other two texts of him.

2) Haug considers that the Vedic Age extends from the year 2000

to the 2400 B. C.

3) H. of Glasenapp it denotes in their revision of the theses of

P. Giles and J. Hertel, an age of 2500 B. C. 2

4) M. Winterniz arrived to one period from the 2000 to the 2500

B. C. suggesting that the Puranas already existed that time.

5) Luis Renou sustains the age from 2000 to the 2500 B. C. 3

6) Colebrooke seems to deduce from a Vedic calendar that have

been write previously to the century 2900 B. C.

7) P. C. Sen Gupta discovered that the eclipse described in The

Prohibited Rig observed by the wise Atri corresponds at the 26 of

Julio the 3928.

8) B. G. Tilak, for the references of the constellation of Orión

of the Rig, reached the conclusion that you/they date of the 4000 to.

C. 4

9) Bon. H. Jacobi, through the Hindu candelarios and comparing

the astronomical references of the Bráhmanas, he discovered a date of

the 4000 B. C. 5

 

Anti-Aryo invasionistas

10) K. Elst sustains that the formulations of the zodiac that are

observed in Rigveda, correspond to a time of at least the 2000 at the

6000 B. C.

11) D. Frawley points out that several brâhmanas and The

Prohibited Atharva describe the vernal equinox in the Krittikas, that

is to say the Pléyidas, and the summer solstice at the beginning of

Leo. This references correspond at the 2500 B. C. 6

12) F.E. Pargiter intends that the Vedic age went about 3000 B.

C. 7

13) B.R Ambedkar, sustains a similar conclusion at the 3000 B.

C. 8

14) N. S. Rajaram proposes based on the astronomical calculations

an age 3000 at the 10,000 B. C.

15) P. Gokhale affirms: "The analysis of the astronomical

references of the Taiteriya Brahamana 3.5.15, when Jupiter crossed

the constellation Pashya they date of the 4650 to. C.. The Aitereya

Bhramana points out astronomical data of 6000 B. C."

16) B. M. Sidharta settles down starting from the astronomical

data and the excavations in Turkey that the Vedic Era comes from 8000

B. C., as proto-agricultural culture.

 

Other apparent discovery that leans in favor of the antiquity of this

culture, is the recent discovery in the Gulf of Cambay, near Dwaraka,

reported by the Department of Ocean Development of India in February

of the 2002. Where they met devices of an establishment with ceramic

of unknown style until the present, rock mortars, objects like

figures that represent the goddess Mother (Durga?), deer heads, a

duck, and human remains. The studies carried out by two specialized

Institutes have concluded that the analyses of carbon 14 suggest an

age of 5500 to. C. That which locates them as the oldest culture in

India, overcoming those of the Valley of the Shindo like Harappa. For

that that independently of where It has originated the Indo-European

community and the principle of the Vedic Age, the presented

discoveries suggest an age that it goes of the 2000 to. 8000 B. C.

that mark a (22.2%) inside the data gathered in this variable. "

Also, the research Klaus Klostermaier wrote:

While the Rigveda has always been held to be the oldest literary

document of India and was considered to have preserved

the oldest

form of Sanskrit, Indians have not taken it to be the

source for

their early history. The Itihasa-Purana served that

purpose…

However, they contain detailed information about

ancient events and personalities that form part of Indian

history.

The Ancients, like Herodotus, the father of Greek histo-

riography,

did not separate story from history. Nor did they

question their

sources but tended to juxtapose various pieces of

evidence without

critically sifting it. Thus we cannot read Itihasa-Purana

as the

equivalent of a modern textbook of Indian history but

rather as a

storybook containing information with interpretation,

facts and

fiction. Indians, however, always took genealogies quite

seriously

and we can presume that the Puranic lists of dynasties,

like the

lists of paramparas in the Upanishads relate the names of

real

rulers in the correct sequence. On these assumptions we

can

tentatively reconstruct Indian history to a time around

4500 BCE.

A key element in the revision of Ancient Indian History

was the

recent discovery of Mehrgarh, a settlement in the

Hindukush area,

that was continuously inhabited for several thousand

years from c.

7000 BCE onwards. This discovery has extended Indian

history for

several thousands of years before the fairly well

dateable Indus.

 

Other point, is very good don't ignore that the Puranas are

recognized by experts , neutrals to the this debate, in other

fields, like Jo Woldak and David Oldroyd, both of them Social

historians of Science, as more philosophical, ontological and

rational as the poetry of the srutis:

"Rig Veda, the most ancient Hindu scripture (and early text in an

Indo-European language)… Whether these ideas are derived from this

profound but poetically rather than philosophically focused text, or

from somewhat later Upanishadic, Budhist and Puranic, philosophical

speculation…" (Wodak and Oldroyd 1996)

This way, it is good to remember again that the Puranas have

subsisted from the Vedic time:

C: However, a close observation proof, that your argument is simply a

fanciful interpretation from Sankara and mimansa school, and not in

line with the spirit of the Upanisads verses themselves. At respect,

others of the most serius authorities in this matter, Dr. Thomas

Hopkings, recognized that such hostility upon the evidence of the

puranic literature in the srutis are: "such objections are mere

pedantry..." (RVL p. ix.) And other expert in the Vedic text, Dr.

Michael Witzel from Harvard openly said: "Still, there is some

evidence that there may be ample reason for calling these things

(Puranas) "the fifth Veda". (V p.23) This is probed by a direct

reading in the text. Because, if you know the more elementary

literary preceptive, you can observe that the words are used in

numeration statement, and the other sustantives, like Rig, Yajur,

Atharva and Sama, are sacred books, and the same categorical status

is given to the Puranas and Itihasas. You can read the same fact,

with open eyes, in other sources, like Atharva veda XI.7.24,

Saptapatha Brahman XI. 5,6,8, etc. Therefore, even the late scholar

Rapson admits that, "the Puranas have preserved an independient

tradition, which supplements the prestly tradition of the Vedas and

Brahmanas and which goes back to the same period." (CHI, I.902) So,

on the face of such an elaborated record, it is absurd to build up

hypotheses on basis of vague suspicions and unbridled imaginations.

..Therefore like also appoint in my thesis work:

"The total of verses of the whole literature puranic is of 400,000.

In The Bhâgavatam the thematic of these books is given, which

consists in:

1) The creation of the universe.

2) the creation of the worlds and the alive beings.

3) the maintenance of all the alive beings.

4) the sustenance of the same ones.

5) the government of the different Manus.

6) the dynasties of the big kings and their genealogies

7) the feats of the main kings.

8) the destruction.

9) the motivation.

10) the supreme refuge.

For that that the experts as E. Royston Pike defines

them: "they are it more similar to a history that can be in the Hindu

literature.... that they combine with an encyclopedic

information." It is relevant to mention that several cultures have

had works of traditional history or protohistory. For example, in the

codex Ixtliyochitli is informed that Texcoco Huematzin's king, made a

compilation of the chronicles of the called toltecs the Teomoxtli or

Divine Book that it contained the story of the creation of the world,

his emigration from Asia of those people, the stages of his trip, the

dynasties of his kings, his social and religious institutions, etc.

The investigator Klaus Klostermaier points out another

parallelism: "The Puranas —like the Bible—they try with the creation,

history of the dynasties, saints' biographies, moral laws, human

wisdom, the first created beings, a personality type Noé, the

savior's birth, all type of miracles." In the same way Flavio

Josefo's Jewish Antiques, The Annals of Their Ma Chien, etc. In those

which, contrary to the modern natural history, the authors don't make

the discrimination between the literary ornaments and the historical

facts."

 

To conclude with this brief report, in my thesis, we uses an

full methodolgy applying to triagunlation to subject the body of

evidence intern (geographical, cronological, astronomical,

intertextuality, social, economic, philosophical, religious,

political, language type) and external (documental, epigrafic,

sculpture, numismatist, and discoveries adjunts) on the Bhagavata

purana, to tests statisticaly of percentages and we discover that the

weight of the evidence tend to sustain to remote antiquity, with the

hope of opening new horizons in the search of more discoveries that

they allow the advance of the knowledge. Nevertheless like I noticed

in my thesis mentioning to Klostermaier:

"While the older theory rested on exclusively philological arguments,

the new theory includes astronomical, geological, mathematical and

archaeological evidence. On the whole, the latter seems to rest on

better foundations."

And also to Max Planck who pointed out:

"A new scientific truth doesn't triumph by means of the convincing

of its opponents, making them see the light, but rather because this

opponents end up dying and a new generation grows that familiarizes

with it ." 8

 

 

1.- Rosen 2. Opus Cit. p. 2.

22 Cit por De Mora et alt. Opus cit. p. 43.

33 idem.

44 Cit por Ibid. p. 43.

55 Idem.

66 Frawley, David. The M ith of Aryan Invasión. URL:

http://www.bharatvani.org/books1998.

77Talageri Loc. Cit. Chapter 8 (Appendix 1) .Misinterpretations of

Rigvedic History

8 Planck, Max. Scientific Autobiography. Cit por Kunth, Thomas S.1,

La Estructura de las Revoluciones Científicas. Fondo de Cultura

Económica. Col. de Brevarios No. 213. 1971, p. 235.

 

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