Important Please read this

April 7, 2002

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Members.

This is fairly a long message but an interesting one and also an

important fact file. So please read this carefully without omitting

any part.

I am reproducing below a question that I posted in "sv-poetry" list

and reposted in "sv-general" on the request of Sri Mani Varadarajan

I am posting this in our list for everyone to know the facts. It is

surprising that some our thennAchArya sampradhAyasthars talk about

swAmy dEsikan being an ardent vadagalai AchArya, while the fact is

NOT AT ALL. This message will have very few citations from his works

where one can see that his views are nothing but the same as that of

Sri piLLai lOkAchAriyar and Sri maNavALa mAmunigaL.

Foreword : I sent this message to Sri Oppiliappan Koil Varadachari

Sadagopan as a query to one of his mails on SaraNAgathi deepikai of

swAmi dEsikan.

--------------------Quote 1 --------------------------------

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Sri Sadagopan swamy,

You wrote:

------------------ Sub Quote--------------

karmasvanAdhi vishamEshu samO DayALu:

svEnaiva kluptham apadesam avEkshamANa:

svaprApathayE tanu-bhruthAm thvarasE Mukundha

svAbhAvikam Tava suhrutthvam idham gruNanthi

--SrI SaraNAgathi DhIpikai: SlOkam 14

(Meaning): Oh ViLakkoLi PerumALE! Oh MOksha-DhAyaka MukundhA ! The

JeevAthmA acquires a sarIram (body) because of its previous karmAs.

Its karma vinais are timeless and anAdhi. Those poorva karmAs yield

the jeevan many kinds of fruits.

Oh Lord! You have no natural likes or dislikes about anyone. You are

equanimous in Your conduct towards all of the chEthanams. Even

then,You can only grant the fruits to each jeevAthmA according to

their karmAs. Your dayA guNam is matchless. Inspite of that abundant

compassion , You will be accused of partiality if You grant mOksham

to a ChEthanam that has not used the means (upAyam ) to seek Your

grace. If You do that for one jeevan , then You have to grant the

mOksham to all jeevans independent of whether they have performed any

UpAya anushtAnam or not . Theredore , You await the performance of

the easiest to practise upAyam of Prapatthi.Even that performance of

Prapatthi by the Jeevan is caused by You. You facilitate the

performance of that UpAyam and immediately after rush to the side of

the ChEthanam to grant him the parama gathi of Moksham. This

generous and compassionate act of Yours has been described by sages

as a proof of Your innate deep affection and friendship towards the

Jeevans.

-----------------------------End Subquote-------------------

I have a small doubt regarding the above. In this sloka Swamy Desikan

states that He is waiting for a small pretext on the jeevAthmA, i.e.,

performing prapatti, to take the jeevAthmA unto Him. Swamy Desikan

also says that this performance of prapatthi by the jeevAthmA is also

induced by Him only. If that is so, what is the act on the part of

the jeevAthmA [that he did something (sAdhyOpAyam)] to earn mOksha.

On the other hand, if one agrees that the jeevAthmA is completely

bound by the leela of Sriman nArAyaNan, and that is why He Himself

induces the jeevAthmA to do prapatti, then why should He look for a

vyAja (pretext) at all on the part of the jeevAthmA to grant mOksha.

Isn't this a short coming on Him that He is expecting something and

does this not go against the very title "avAptha samastha kAman" (The

one who is completely fulfilled and needs no more from anybody).

Request you to kindly enlighten me on the above.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

---------------------End Quote---

Now he replied for this query of mine as follows ;

---------------------Quote 2-----------------------------

Dear SrImaAn Venkatesh:

Please accept my Panguni Uttharam day greetings

to You . May the SrIrangam Dhivya Dampathis' blessings

be with you always!

Your question is most welcome . I will respond to

it to the best of my ability. This issue of our Lord's

spontaneous grace (nirhEthuka KrupA)versus conscious

human effort (sahRthuka KrupA) to qualify for it

has attracted the attention of brilliant minds

from AchArya RaamAnujA's time onwards to today .

What I am going to say is hence nothing new .

Different AchArya paramparais have taken different

positions . I was explaining the view of

Swamy Desikan . Yet , there is a way that bridges

the nirhEthuka KrupA and sahEthuka KrupA.

The quick answer to your query is that BhagavAn

out of His krupA directs the Jeevan to a sadAchAryan

and the Prapatthi done thru that SadAchAryan results

in the Lord's acceptance of that Prapatthi. SadAchaaryan

essentially prepares the jeevan with sadupadEsam

on Tathtva Thrayam , performs upadEsams on

the three manthrAs and offers that " prepared" jeevan

back to the owner. Thus the Lord as Sarva rakshakan ,

Sahaja Suhruth , Sarvajn~an , Sarva SakthimAn and

avAptha samastha kaaman has a dual role here to play

without contradiction to His nirhEthuka KrupA.

Spontaneous grace of the Lord is thus intertwined

with the minimal human effort that precedes it.

The usual analogy given is the spontaneous flow of

Mother's milk and the minimal effort on the part of

the infant to gain it .

To avoid any thought of arbitrariness and

partiality ( Vaishamya NairguNya DhOsham ),

Our Lord accepts the vyAjam of Prapatthi

to shower His abundant grace . The opportunity

to seek a sadAchAryan and engage in the path of

a spiritual discipline is provided by the Lord

Himself in rcognition of good and meritorious

deed performed by the jeevan consciously

or otherwise . Our Lord's grace is recognized here

as the prime cause (pradhAna hEthu ) and Prapatthi

is viewed as the accessory cause (SahakAri KaaraNam).

The vyAja of Prapatthi is the link/bridge between

the two kinds of KrupA.

The third verse of NyAsa Dasakam of Swami Desiakn

has been my guiding light in these matters as pointed

out by my AchAryan, who has placed aatma-rakshA-bharam

at the Thiruvadi of MaalOlan :

SvAmi svasEsham svavasam sva-bharathvEna nirbharam

svadhattha-svadhiyA svArTam svasmin nyasyathi maam svayam

This powerful slOkam emphasizing Saathvika ThyAgam

consisting of the three parts ( Karthruthva ,

MamathA and Phala ThyAgams) underlines the following

important points pertinent to NyAsa VidhyA or Prapatthi

yOgam:

1. SrIman NaarAyaNan is the Supreme Lord of all (SvAmi).

2. I am Your bonded servant/adimai (Sva-sEsham).

3. I am controlled by You (sva-vasam).

4. You have blessed me with the Jn~Anam about You

(Sva-dhattha sva-dhiyA)." You have enabled me

to know Your nature.You have endowed me with

the capacity to think."

5. SvArTam nirbharam sva-bharathvEna Svayam Svasmin

nyasyathi ( " You Yourself have made me surrender

myself to You for Your own pleasure with the responsibility

of protecting it and getting rid of that burden from me").

The Fourteenth slOkam of SrI SaraNAgathi DhIpikai

echos some of the thoughts of the above NyAsa Dasakam

slOkam .

SrImath Azhagiya Singar ThiruvadigaLE SaraNam ,

Oppiliappan Koil VaradAchAri SadagOpan

----------------------End Quote ------------------------------

For this I posted another one proving from swAmi dEsikars' works

itself that his views are same as that of thennAchArya sampradAya

views.

-----------------------Quote 3--

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha.

Dear srImAn Sadagopan swamy.

First let me reciprocate the Panguni Utthiram greetings to you. Thank

you for your blessings on this holy day. I thank you very much for

the immediate and elaborate reply. I still have that original doubt.

The analogy of the mother's milk flow to the baby sucking it fits

very well. But my doubt is that, do you say, the jeevAtmA has a

little svAthanthryam on his/her part to do something so that it

becomes a pretext for Sriman nArAyan to grant him/her the mOksham?

If that is so, what actually the jeevAthmA is doing on his part. You

have clearly stated that Sriman nArAyaNan shows a sadhAchAryan to the

jeevAthmA and from there the sadhAchAryan takes the jeevAthmA to the

point of doing prapatti and actually helps him in doing it. If that

is the case, the seed is sowed by emberumAn only and once the seed is

sown, it is natural on the part of the jeevAthmA to proceed in just

the same way as the plants grow.However, if you are to say that, just

sowing is not enough and someone has to water the plant, please note

that, here the watering is done by the sadhAchAryan and no effort is

needed on the part of the plant. But when the plant is watered

properly it is natural for it to grow. So the plant is actually doing

nothing and that is the position of jeevAthmA. Again superimposing

this analysis on the krupa issue, please note that Thirumazhsaii

AzhwAr in his Thirucchanda viruttham, says that emberumAn is capable

of turning the back the jeevAthmA into wrong ways, if He wishes and

this is due to His nirankusa swAthanthriyam.

pAsuram 85:

nacharAvaNaikkidandha nAdha! pAdha pOdhinil

vaittha sindhai vAnguvitthu neenguvikka nee inam

meitthan vallaiyAdhalAl aRindhanan nin mAyamE

uiytthu nin mayakkinil mayakkal ennai mAyanE

[AzhwAr says, "vaittha sindhai vAnguvithhu". This means He is capable

to taking back the thoughts (about Him) that He has given to the

AzhwAr (and hence the jeevAthmA) and also "neenguvitthu", meaning,

completely getting rid off. His capability is expressed by the

words " meitthan vallai" (surely you can). Finally says by doing this

He is mesmerising (mayakkinil) him (AzhwAr) and hence "please do not

do this to me"].

This pAsuram clearly, without any sibling of doubts in one's mind,

brings out the "nirankusa swAthanthriyam" of emberumAn. So if He can

change the thoughts as per His wish as per the above pAsuram, what is

the need for Him to expect anything at all from the jeevAthmA to

bestow His grace. So it seems that, it is only emberumAn who out of

His own wish and sankalpa & kAruNyam and krupA, takes the jeevAthmA

on the right path and hence give the salvation.

On the other hand, if, as you said, He bestows this grace on the

jeevAthmA, only based on his past good deeds according to the karma

theory, then it is again a shortcoming on the part of emberumAn. This

time it is on His guNA of "nirankusa swAthanthriyam" (Unfettered

independence). This attribute of emberumAn is one of the main

attributes glorified by all our poorvAchAryAs. As said above, if He

is to bestow the grace, based on karma theory, then He will be only

called as "sAstra vasyan" (bound by sAstrAs) and not "nirankusa

swathanthran". Well, one may say that, the sAstrAs were created by

Him, so there is nothing wrong if He follows it. Please note, there

is nothing wrong if He "follows" it, but it cannot be that He is

bound by it. As all of us know, He created the sAstrAs, basically as

a guideline for us to lead a peaceful life. So He cannot be bound by

the sAstrAs.

Also, the nyAsa dasakam slOka which you have cited very clearly

proves that there is no independant effort on the part of the

jeevAthmA to earn His grace. Please note that the slOkA ends with the

arterious words "nyasyathi mAm svayam" ("You" make me surrender to

you). So how is it that the jeevAthmA is doing something at all on

his part to attain His grace.

Recently I was reading a book by Sri P.B Annangarachariar swamy in

which he has quoted from MunivAhana bhOgam of swAmy dEsikar, the

following. In the avathArikai, swAmy dEsikar says "kAraNa vasthu

innadhenRu aRudhiyida mudiyAdha krupaiyinAlE......". Very clearly

swAmy dEsikar says, that there is no reason for His grace. So how is

it that some thing on the part of the jeevAthmA is required to

receive His grace. I ask this question, as you have stated this as

swAmy dEsikar's view. Maybe if there is a different interpretation to

the above avathArikai, please enlighten me about it.

Request you to kindly enlighten me on the above.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

------------------------End Quote ------------------------

I posted this message to the list on 29th March 2002. Then followed

by another on 2nd April 2002

---------------------------Quote 4---------------------------

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear srImAn Sadagopan swamy,

While I await your clarification on the below matter, another thought

came into my mind about it. Though at the outset, the mother-child

analogy looks fit enough for some act on the part of the jeevAthmA,

this is the one which will very clearly prove against it.

When the child is born, who is teaching the child to suck the milk

and how are they teaching. Does the mother teach the child? No. The

child by nature does this job of sucking the milk. This is exactly

the position of the jeevAthmA before ajnyAnA pervades him. Like the

sucking is natural for the child, the knowledge that the jeevAthmA is

a servant and slave of paramAtmA is very natural for the jeevAthmA

and indeed it is one of the attributes of the jeevAthmA. Also does

the child suck the milk, because it knows that, otherwise it will

die? No. Again it is its nature or swaroopam. The child does not know

that the action of sucking the milk is an upAya for its life. Like

wise doing prapatti in its true form as "tvamEva upAya bhoothO me

bhava ithi prArthanA mathi: saraNAgathi" (that is the prayer for

emberumAn Himself to be upAyam is called prapatti) is natural or

swaroopam for the jeevAthmA and it cannot be construed as a

sAdhyOpAyam. On part of the mother (or emberumAn at the macro level),

whether the child asks for milk (by way of crying) or not, she knows

the right time to feed the child as she has utmost krupA over the

child and anything to the child will be a loss to her. So here

emberumAn knows when to feed the jeevAtmA with His grace and does it

at the right time. When the flow of grace is there all that jeevAtmA

has to do is to accept it . Again, for example a grown up child

(grown enough to do some mischief but still on breast feeding) makes

a mistake, does the mother make the child starve, especially if it is

only her milk which is the diet for the child. No way. This is the

kAruNyam of the mother towards her child and the same on part of

emberumAn towards the chEtana. Here it is only the grace of emberumAn

that can save the chEtana and the emberumAn knows this, even if the

chEtana is not aware of this.

Based on all the above, the analogy of Mother-Child only goes to

prove that there is nothing on the part of the chEtana that he can do

as an upAya to attain the grace of emberumAn. Request you to kindly

clarify on the above lines too.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

----------------------------End Quote----------------------------

To this, there is no reply till date. Do you think from the above,

that they can answer. Instead, they are calling us fanatics and other

things.

Rest assured. Those who believe, AzhwArs, have to be the thennAchAryA

way. I will continue to post some more messages like this as a sort

of FACT-FILES about our sampradhAyam. This is for everyone to

understand what is going on.

Request your feedbacks and additional inputs to uphold the above

points.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

April 8, 2002

Dear Sri Venkatesh Swamin and others,

AdiyEn thought I'd like to add to your query one

more point. After Swami Nammazhvar surrenders to

the Lord of the Seven Hills in his "agalakillen"

pasuram, it is interesting to see what he says

next in the following pasuram. This recently

caught my attention, but has no doubt been analysed

before.

Nammazhvar starts the next pasuram with "adikkeezh

amarnthu pugunthu vAzhumin adiyeer enRu aruL

kodukkum". Here it is clearly said that the act of

surrender and the kainkarya prApti is because of the

will and the aruL of emperumAn.

If anyone knows what the sampradAyic stands are in

relation to this pasuram, please post them.

I will also address briefly the article by Sri Anand

Karlapakkam. I have noticed a trend in such articles

to coat the words with some roundabout praise of Sri

Manavala Mamunigal while in its heart it simply

wishes to disallow any greatness to the Acharya. And

some warped logic has seeped in of late, which states

that those who praise the acharya are not well versed

in his works (offered without any proof for this

allegation) and are therefore disqualified to praise

the acharya and an implied twist of logic left to the

reader that the acharya himself was therefore not

great. Somehow the purported lack of knowledge on the

follower's part leads to the fall of the acharya! My

personal opinion is that the best thing to do is to

ignore these people, for reading their words leaves a

hurt in me everytime. And since they have decided

to throw out logic even, what is the chance of

debating and convincing them?

Azhvar Emberumanar Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Saranam

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

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April 8, 2002

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Venkatesh,

Indeed an excellent post to be read by one and all. In fact, I had gone

through the entire content thoroughly 3 times. Actually the subject made

very interesting because the way you have framed questions. I really doubt

you shall expect a (proper) reply for this.

Your superlative example: The relationship between Mother and Child as that

of paramAthmA and jeevAthmA, is just excellent.

(If at all) You get a reply on this. Please keep us updated.

dAsan,

K.M. Shantha Kumar.

vinjamoor_venkatesh [vinjamoorvenkat]

Monday, April 08, 2002 6:11 AM

ramanuja

[ramanuja] Important Please read this